Snowbandit
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I'm not much of a .45 fan but, of the choices given, I would select it with some prefragmented ammo such as the Glaser Safety Slug. Second choice, better yet as a second weapon, would be the AR.
New Home Defense Choice?
- Thread starter Mr.Blue
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JTHunter
Member
There was a post in a different forum that I was reading a couple of days ago (can't remember where) but it linked to an article by a former cop who was now working for the coroner's office (medical examiner to some). He had nothing but contempt for 9mm/.380 sizes as too low powered with lightweight bullets. He felt that, from the bodies they have inspected, that those with only one or two bullets in them were either .40's or .45's. With the meteoric increase in semis, he hasn't seen a lot of .38 Special/.357 killings but feels that they were also good rounds, but the .38 Sp. was at the bottom. He felt the heavy rounds (158 gr. in .357, 240 gr. in .45) had more kinetic energy to make for fast takedowns. Hardball ammo (FMJ) in ANY of these ammos WILL penetrate a 2x4 through the 2" thickness, so shot placement is critical.
Firing #4 lead birdshot with a IC choke at drywall from 15' blows a hole about 4" diameter in the drywall but the entire 2'x2' piece is peppered. Guess what #4 buck did!
Firing #4 lead birdshot with a IC choke at drywall from 15' blows a hole about 4" diameter in the drywall but the entire 2'x2' piece is peppered. Guess what #4 buck did!
hardluk1
member
heres something to look at . This is very light #7 1/2 bird shot at 10 feet in a cylinder bore. If chock was tighter so would the pattern. If this was #4 shoot or BB or would be away harder on A BG and still less chance of killing a nieghbor than any other normal defence loads. Remeber this is about defence in a town house or aprtment setting.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023
Mike1234567
member
^^^ No doubt bird shot would make a nasty wound but 3-6 inches of penetration doesn't guarantee damage to vital organs... and there was no bone to pass through in that gelatin test. If one needs to minimize wall penetration then most tests show that #4 buckshot is the minimum one can use and still be effective against bad guys. One or two rounds of BB on top is optional but one does risk being killed before stopping a threat. If one dies before stopping a threat then the rest of the family is doomed.
Gunnerboy
Member
Inside a home unless your walls are made of steel plates 00buck is your best option so as not to kill little timmy next door who just went to bed, that or a 22 with hollowpoints, 2 in the head 8 in the chest.
Old Shooter
Member
I'd go with the 45acp just because I'm very familiar with that round and my 1911 pistol. Remington 870 a close second using 00 buck.
hermannr
Member
I did not vote because you did not give "other" as an option. My choice for a place like yours would be absolute max #4 bird shot or smaller (#6, #7.5).
With normal defence distances within a house, #6 will disable or kill anything you shoot at. Close enough, #6 will still go through a normal house wall.
While #6 would not be a good choice for something outside at 50 yards, where are you going to firing at that kind of range while inside your house?
at the range, Set up a target at the max clear distance within your house. Try each of your options and see what performs the best. Back the target with 1" of gyprock and see what penetrates that too.
With normal defence distances within a house, #6 will disable or kill anything you shoot at. Close enough, #6 will still go through a normal house wall.
While #6 would not be a good choice for something outside at 50 yards, where are you going to firing at that kind of range while inside your house?
at the range, Set up a target at the max clear distance within your house. Try each of your options and see what performs the best. Back the target with 1" of gyprock and see what penetrates that too.
No. Actually I'm considering switching to the reduced recoil loads even though I have no problems with the recoil of a 12 gauge. I've been shooting shotguns for years and feel very comfortable operating an 870. But there would be a big difference in muzzle blast between the standard 00 Buck loads and the reduced recoil loads. Anyways, like I said, it's a weapon of last resort.
Good luck to anyone who thinks they can handle the hearing damage from firing a rifle indoors in a small room without ear protection on. I know what a 9mm sounds like in a small bedroom. My ears were ringing for a few hours but it cleared up. I have no interest in having a ringing in my ears for the rest of my life. My 9mm pistol with 18 rounds per mag will work just fine for me.
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Sounds like what the Taurus Judge was invented for. If you don't want or can't effectively use a long shotgun, the Judge gives you a lot of options. I'd personally go with the federal load of four OOO buck. If you really want to use something smaller, try the four OO round from remington, the defense disk PDX round from Winchester, or the #4 bird load from Federal personal defense line (tighter pattern than regular #4 bird loads).
You still have the choice of 45 colt if you want it.
Nothing that effectively penetrates a person reliably will be stopped by a sheetrock wall (or two or three). But soft lead round ball is about the best you can do (most buck tends to expand to .45 and flatten in the barrel, so you have something that will lose energy as soon as it possibly can).
You still have the choice of 45 colt if you want it.
Nothing that effectively penetrates a person reliably will be stopped by a sheetrock wall (or two or three). But soft lead round ball is about the best you can do (most buck tends to expand to .45 and flatten in the barrel, so you have something that will lose energy as soon as it possibly can).
Unkei
Member
New Home Defense Choice
Given the only poll choices, I voted for the 45 acp. My personal preference, given that I own a wide variety of handguns and no long guns, is my Taurus Judge. I load it with alternating chambers of 410 slugs and 45 Colt.
Unkei
Given the only poll choices, I voted for the 45 acp. My personal preference, given that I own a wide variety of handguns and no long guns, is my Taurus Judge. I load it with alternating chambers of 410 slugs and 45 Colt.
Unkei
for controled penetration and adequate stopping power, use a S&W .38 special revolver with 148gr DEWC @ 825fps.ColeK
Member
Qoute; Mr.Blue
I just sold my house. I am now in a townhouse, with shared walls. I used to use my XD45 Tactical loaded with 14 Gold Dot 230's. That was a 4000 sq ft suburban home with about an acre of land around me.
Now I have to worry about over-penetration. That said, over-penetration is my distant secondary concern. Putting down the intruder and protecting my family is primary. I would try my best not to shoot in the direction of the shared walls.
What platform would you choose for home defense in MY SITUATION?
1. XD45 mentioned above.
2. CZ SP-01 9mm w/Gold Dot 124+Ps
3. Remington 870 12 gauge w/Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck.
4. AR15/M4 Carbine w/Hornady Tap 55 grain.
None of the above!
I just sold my house. I am now in a townhouse, with shared walls. I used to use my XD45 Tactical loaded with 14 Gold Dot 230's. That was a 4000 sq ft suburban home with about an acre of land around me.
Now I have to worry about over-penetration. That said, over-penetration is my distant secondary concern. Putting down the intruder and protecting my family is primary. I would try my best not to shoot in the direction of the shared walls.
What platform would you choose for home defense in MY SITUATION?
1. XD45 mentioned above.
2. CZ SP-01 9mm w/Gold Dot 124+Ps
3. Remington 870 12 gauge w/Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck.
4. AR15/M4 Carbine w/Hornady Tap 55 grain.
None of the above!
k-frame
Member
Almost all townhomes basically consist of four walls.
In our case front and back walls are faced with brick. I imagine a round could penetrate the drywall and possibly that brick facing but I don't really know.
Of greater interest, from what are the side walls made? Do you have concrete block between each unit? I know our local fire codes require fireproof material but I think it's more than just sheetrock. I think.
Any buuilders out there? It'd be good to hear your thoughts.
In our case front and back walls are faced with brick. I imagine a round could penetrate the drywall and possibly that brick facing but I don't really know.
Of greater interest, from what are the side walls made? Do you have concrete block between each unit? I know our local fire codes require fireproof material but I think it's more than just sheetrock. I think.
Any buuilders out there? It'd be good to hear your thoughts.
wlewisiii
Member
You can put that .45 JHP where you want it. You can't always do that with every one of those 9 .33 pellets.
RX-178
Member
I'll go with the .223 JHP. A lightweight hollow point bullet in the .223 caliber is still going to have a lot of stopping power... it's still a long gun round, being compared to pistol rounds in this case (other than the 12 gauge of course).
Unless you've hung a lot of heavy metal rails on the carbine (which I have been known to do more often than not, I will admit), it should actually be incredibly easy to handle an AR carbine one handed. With a standard M-4 style setup with the round plastic hand guards, I could fire it one handed like a pistol without using the stock without much difficulty. Wouldn't come close to using the accuracy potential of the weapon, but indoors I don't think I would outright MISS either. Plus, you still have the shoulder stock, even if you're not holding onto the forend.
Plus you have the advantages of a 20 or 30 round magazine, faster reloads, and I think the carbine just handles quicker than either the handgun or the shotgun.
Unless you've hung a lot of heavy metal rails on the carbine (which I have been known to do more often than not, I will admit), it should actually be incredibly easy to handle an AR carbine one handed. With a standard M-4 style setup with the round plastic hand guards, I could fire it one handed like a pistol without using the stock without much difficulty. Wouldn't come close to using the accuracy potential of the weapon, but indoors I don't think I would outright MISS either. Plus, you still have the shoulder stock, even if you're not holding onto the forend.
Plus you have the advantages of a 20 or 30 round magazine, faster reloads, and I think the carbine just handles quicker than either the handgun or the shotgun.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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Most places and states, for residential, fire resistant drywall and metal studs are used for the "fire brake" interior walls. Its basically the same stuff as regular drywall but they use something other than paper to "bind" it. It's no denser really than regular drywall so the same problem with penetration would still exist.
Inebriated
Member
I would use Federal 00 with FliteControl wad. Small pattern (I'm talking 4" at 15 yards), and has less penetration than any of the main handgun rounds (reference "Box O Truth" I believe). A shotgun is inherently easier to connect with... longer gun, longer sight radius, and not affected by trigger control at short ranges as much as a handgun.
Just my opinion, though.
Just my opinion, though.
Caliber concern should not even be an issue. Rifle shot gun or pistol alike. For indoor home defense, especially in a town house(small rooms, short halls) the choice must be a pistol unless you what to go through the long drawn out process of SBR or SBS. So to this end lets cut 223 and the buckshot/birdshot concerns.
Pistol 32 auto and up will work just fine, as far as over penetration and shot placement, come on folks there are enought youtube vids to see shot placement while very important likely will not happen, often cases its a volley for lead headed down range. Also it will likely be headed at the person at their entry point, doors and windows.....making over penetration even less of an issue. As bullets will likely be going out exterior walls not neighboring walls.
Enough on the gun aspect consider these points also.
Adt or simmilar alarm systems.....door/window opens alarm sounds bad guy soils self and flees $10/$25 a month for basic service
Also who breaks into homes and why? In recent years in my area your more likely to wake up hot and sweating because your ac unit was stolen for the copper, break ins just do not happen same with "home invasions" in the 3 cases this year it was because in the end the reason was drug dealer, gambeling, or prostitution.......it was the high volume of cash that other criminals knew was on hand at the target home.
I suspect other parts of the country are seeing the same thing, as reports of home invasions I just did via internet reveal 9 out of 10 recent top stories were just as I stated criminals invading other criminals, the one story that was not this was an elderly couple with little details
So I offer this in closing, get a pistol fill it with ammo of choice that works get an alarm system dont be a criminal and dont advertise you own a gun you will likely just fine.
Pistol 32 auto and up will work just fine, as far as over penetration and shot placement, come on folks there are enought youtube vids to see shot placement while very important likely will not happen, often cases its a volley for lead headed down range. Also it will likely be headed at the person at their entry point, doors and windows.....making over penetration even less of an issue. As bullets will likely be going out exterior walls not neighboring walls.
Enough on the gun aspect consider these points also.
Adt or simmilar alarm systems.....door/window opens alarm sounds bad guy soils self and flees $10/$25 a month for basic service
Also who breaks into homes and why? In recent years in my area your more likely to wake up hot and sweating because your ac unit was stolen for the copper, break ins just do not happen same with "home invasions" in the 3 cases this year it was because in the end the reason was drug dealer, gambeling, or prostitution.......it was the high volume of cash that other criminals knew was on hand at the target home.
I suspect other parts of the country are seeing the same thing, as reports of home invasions I just did via internet reveal 9 out of 10 recent top stories were just as I stated criminals invading other criminals, the one story that was not this was an elderly couple with little details
So I offer this in closing, get a pistol fill it with ammo of choice that works get an alarm system dont be a criminal and dont advertise you own a gun you will likely just fine.
Sav .250
Member
As this is an opinion poll, I `ll go one step further. As I went with the 12 ga and you live in a town house, I`d go with the hard rubber ball ammo. That stuff will do the job!!
Keep in mind the "liability "of your actions. J s/n.
Keep in mind the "liability "of your actions. J s/n.
oldfool
Member
Most would acknowledge that good penetration is a necessary attribute for any SD load, long gun or short gun; people are correct in advocating good penetration.
People should also worry about over penetration, be it wall or window, same as they ought worry about misses.
But I do believe we strive too mightily to convince ourselves that we really can have our cake and eat it, too. I say choose your priority, and don't kid yourself.
If "effectiveness" is priority #1, pick any well respected service pistol or carbine round, or12 ga buckshot. They all work.
If over penetration concern is priority #1, acknowledge SD/HD as being subject to that limitation, and go with 'any gauge' #6 shot, or a highly frangible handgun round of very deliberate non-penetration design.
"Defense" (stopping the threat) does not inherently require "kill" (even though the potential scenario always exists), and most defense shooting events do not, as a matter of fact, result in death, much less instant death.
Life is an inherently risky proposition, you make your choices, and you pay the price.
It's solely up to you to make your own threat assessment, and your own choice of response. There is no magic caliber/gauge load that will do whatever you might wish it would or would not do differently at any random moment.
PS
I personally choose the service handgun caliber round with good penetration, but that's my choice for me, it need not be your choice for you.
People should also worry about over penetration, be it wall or window, same as they ought worry about misses.
But I do believe we strive too mightily to convince ourselves that we really can have our cake and eat it, too. I say choose your priority, and don't kid yourself.
If "effectiveness" is priority #1, pick any well respected service pistol or carbine round, or12 ga buckshot. They all work.
If over penetration concern is priority #1, acknowledge SD/HD as being subject to that limitation, and go with 'any gauge' #6 shot, or a highly frangible handgun round of very deliberate non-penetration design.
"Defense" (stopping the threat) does not inherently require "kill" (even though the potential scenario always exists), and most defense shooting events do not, as a matter of fact, result in death, much less instant death.
Life is an inherently risky proposition, you make your choices, and you pay the price.
It's solely up to you to make your own threat assessment, and your own choice of response. There is no magic caliber/gauge load that will do whatever you might wish it would or would not do differently at any random moment.
PS
I personally choose the service handgun caliber round with good penetration, but that's my choice for me, it need not be your choice for you.
Goblin
Member
I'm thinkin' the spread rate for .00 is about 1" per yard. Those big pills will go thru sheetrock. So try and keep all that in mind while under combat stress! :banghead:
What ever happened to Glasers and MagSafe rounds? Back in the day I used to read Combat Handguns a lot and they always recommended these rounds in situations where over-penetration could be a real issue. One of their examples was on a small yacht. Another would be on an airplane, where US Air Marshall's used Glasers at least a few years ago.
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