New Home Defense Choice?
- Thread starter Mr.Blue
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gordy
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Yes it will go threw just like a 9mm, But it will have far less energy then a 9mm when it goes threw two sheets and maybe a 2 by 4, And will most likely have no energy left to harm someone on the other side of the wall.
Were the choices given will have much more energy then a 38spl.
And you don't need a bullet to go threw a person to do a effective job.
You need to hit the right spot, The first and maybe the second shot.
If the bullet goes threw then you will be putting your family and your next door neighbors in danger.
Were the choices given will have much more energy then a 38spl.
And you don't need a bullet to go threw a person to do a effective job.
You need to hit the right spot, The first and maybe the second shot.
If the bullet goes threw then you will be putting your family and your next door neighbors in danger.
Mike1234567
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If you own the town home I don't understand your aversion to hardening the shared wall.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
In terms of peak dB, an 18" barreled shotgun, a 16" to 18" barreled .223, and a 4" barreled 9mm or .45 are very close (around 155dB). Rifles and shotguns may have a deeper sound, but the peak dB is similar.
That's because peak dB is not only correlated with caliber/powder volume, but with barrel length, which determines the pressure gradient at the muzzle. Shorter barrels make any caliber much louder, as do muzzle brakes.
The loudest of all defensive firearms, per tests I've seen, is the .357 magnum revolver, due to the barrel-cylinder gap, 4" to 6" barrel, large gas volume, and high working pressure.
It would be incredibly loud, indeed. But a 12-gauge or a 16" to 18" .223 (unbraked) would not be much worse.
Yes.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
55gr .223 SP and JHP tended to penetrate fewer walls than 00 buckshot. In that situation (townhome) I'd personally go no heavier than #4 buck, and possibly lighter.
If I had neighbors right on the other side of a wall, I might even consider .223 40gr JHP, even though it penetrates abysmally in gelatin (6" to 8"), and take it as a given that multiple shots would be required. Federal 40gr "Blitz" JHP was a reasonably common SWAT load back in the day and was apparently rather successful, while keeping wall penetration to a minimum. My own AR is loaded with 55gr JHP, though.
Because it is a ridiculous suggestion. I am not a contractor nor am I handy. I will not spend the $$$ it will take to reenforce 3 stories of walls on both sides of my house. What if the bullet exits the back of the home? Should I also install bullet-proof windows?
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allaroundhunter
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Honestly, Blue, when it comes down to it the shotgun (in no heavier than #4 buck), the AR, and the two pistols will all be good choices. If I was in your position, I would choose the AR with varmint rounds, or one of the pistols with any high quality JHP round. Any of the guns will penetrate dry wall if they don't hit an object (body) first, and you can not guarantee that you won't miss the BG if you are put in that situation. The best you can do is practice with your setup to minimize your misses, because it is the missed shots that will go through walls and hurt your neighbors.
Mike1234567
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Mr.Blue... I didn't intend to try to force my opinion. 
armandthecorsair
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The best way to avoid the over-penetration issue is to only shoot at what you can hit. Allow the urge to lay down suppressive fire to subside, and take calculated shots. A bullet that doesn't hit its target won't do you or your neighbor any good.
Your best option out of those you listed is the .45, preferably a reduced-recoil JHP. The .45 is an effective HD round, and not only will the reduced-recoil loads lend themselves to accuracy and reduce time between shots, the lower velocity combined with larger surface area will mitigate though not eliminate the over-penetration risk.
I might take heat for this, but the shotgun is a universally bad choice for home defense, regardless of the load. It's unwieldy, has a slow rate of fire, has low capacity, take eons to reload, and it puts you at risk of hand-to-hand combat in the negotiation of corners.
An AR retains a slight edge over the shotgun, if only because of the high capacity and/or short reload times. But the .223/5.56 isn't exactly optimum for domestic use: watch?v=MwIjIkb-ktU skip to 4:35 "though an exterior wall, through a mannequin with frag vest, through an interior wall, through a metal cabinet, through another mannequin, before becoming lodged in a third wall."
Your best option out of those you listed is the .45, preferably a reduced-recoil JHP. The .45 is an effective HD round, and not only will the reduced-recoil loads lend themselves to accuracy and reduce time between shots, the lower velocity combined with larger surface area will mitigate though not eliminate the over-penetration risk.
I might take heat for this, but the shotgun is a universally bad choice for home defense, regardless of the load. It's unwieldy, has a slow rate of fire, has low capacity, take eons to reload, and it puts you at risk of hand-to-hand combat in the negotiation of corners.
An AR retains a slight edge over the shotgun, if only because of the high capacity and/or short reload times. But the .223/5.56 isn't exactly optimum for domestic use: watch?v=MwIjIkb-ktU skip to 4:35 "though an exterior wall, through a mannequin with frag vest, through an interior wall, through a metal cabinet, through another mannequin, before becoming lodged in a third wall."
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It wasn't a choice in my poll, but I've decided on 5 Hornady Critical Defense .45acp rounds followed by 8 Gold Dot .45acp rounds in my magazine. I also have a spare mag loaded with 13 Gold Dots too.
My gun eats Critical Defense perfectly. Every expansion test that I've seen, conducted, or read about has the round expanding well. It's designed to penetrate less, but that is a good thing in this case. I am proficient with this gun and round, allowing for fast and accurate follow up shots. If 5 rounds of Critical Defense is not enough to end the threat, 21 rounds of Gold Dot will be.
My gun eats Critical Defense perfectly. Every expansion test that I've seen, conducted, or read about has the round expanding well. It's designed to penetrate less, but that is a good thing in this case. I am proficient with this gun and round, allowing for fast and accurate follow up shots. If 5 rounds of Critical Defense is not enough to end the threat, 21 rounds of Gold Dot will be.
Byrd666
Member
I think I might look into a Judge or similar with birdshot for close quarters and buckshot or .45lc for room size. I also saw a new load being used on Gun & Ammo TV that included a set of disks in the shell for a longer shot, such as 30-35 foot. Didn't catch exactly who made it but, I think it was Hornady or Federal. Leaning towards Hornady.
Really Byrd? Birdshot for HD? Even out of a 12-gauge that's really dangerous to use in self-defense. The tiny shot won't penetrate enough to reliably stop your target.
In a Judge, the ONLY loads you should use for SD are 000-buckshot or .45 LC. Those will go through walls. But, they will also go through people enough to cause a physoliogical stop in your attacker.
The disc load you mentioned has horrible SD and penetrates about as well as birdshot. It is about as useful as using a tuna fish to jump start your volvo.
In a Judge, the ONLY loads you should use for SD are 000-buckshot or .45 LC. Those will go through walls. But, they will also go through people enough to cause a physoliogical stop in your attacker.
The disc load you mentioned has horrible SD and penetrates about as well as birdshot. It is about as useful as using a tuna fish to jump start your volvo.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The link to that video is broken, but if it's the one I'm thinking of, it was a test of the penetration ability of military FMJ against building materials, wasn't it? Civilian defensive .223 JHP/SP performs differently in building materials than M855 or AP, and automatic weapons can chew through barriers a single round wouldn't penetrate, by putting several rounds in the same crater.
Here's a test of civilian .223 JHP on drywall with realistic wall spacing. Note that most of the lighter rounds fragmented in the first wall and didn't even penetrate the second, and even the heavier 55gr SP stopped after the second wall.
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
Byrd666
Member
Skribs
The recommendation of the birdshot for close range, 7-10 feet, was on the same show that showed the disk load. You use what YOU want, I'm passing on the seen tests and ballistics gel results.
The recommendation of the birdshot for close range, 7-10 feet, was on the same show that showed the disk load. You use what YOU want, I'm passing on the seen tests and ballistics gel results.
brnmuenchow
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Agreed in terms of overpenetration, one of the reasons people are starting to use the AR platform (with the proper ammo choice.) for home protection. There of course is never any guarantee, but I will personally vouch not in favor of the .45ACP. (Unless you are trying to get your neighbor's attention, becouse that will get it.)
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Mr. Blue; of the four choices you have listed, the .223 JHP will be the least lethal (though still lethal) after passing through a typical interior wall (two sheets of 5/8" drywall with no insulation). In terms of what kind of wound cavity it creates, it is also the second most effective round of the choices you have listed. The wall penetration tests and gel tests demonstrating all of this have been posted here hundreds of times and are tacked in the Rifle Forum Reading Library as well. I'm not sure why it continues to be a source of so much mythology.
However, a couple of important points to make:
1. In a small townhouse where you may not be able to control access to your front door or window and the distances inside the home are small, you may have very little time to respond. Having the best platform may be less important than having a platform. For me, the pistol is the core of any defensive preparation, even though it is one of the less capable firearms for self-defense in terms of accuracy and power, the convenience factor means it can always be present. Even if you don't wish to carry a pistol, the small size typically gives you more options for storing it closeby. If I had no firearms at all, the pistol would be what I would start with. For me the ideal solution is pistol + longgun. The pistol is the always there backup for when time is an issue. If time is less of an issue, then I can access a longgun and use the benefits it offers.
2. All of the four choices you selected have the potential to kill somebody on the other side of a typical interior wall - and pretty much any round that meets the FBI recommended minimum criteria for penetration will as well. The best way to reduce penetration is to make good hits on your attacker's torso. You already seem to have a good grasp on this so I won't belabor the point other than to point out that a longgun offers both a better chance of a hit and more power as well.
3. All four of the platforms you mentioned are good for self-defense. The most critical factor isn't going to be the firearm; but you. Training is a major, major benefit in this regard; so the platform you are most confident with and most familiar with (not just in terms of accuracy; but in terms of loading, clearing malfunctions, operating in disorienting situations, etc.) is probably the best choice. Regardless, definitely look into getting formal training if you can afford it.
4. Even if you can't afford training, take some time to look at the layout of your townhouse. Where are the access points? What are the likely lanes of fire if you wake up to a noise in your bedroom? What if you are defending at the doorway? Give some thought to these things now so you can identify problem backstops now instead of trying to do it while someone tries to kill you. Remember that "reinforcing" doesn't necessarily mean major reconstruction. An oak bookcase stacked with books and newspapers will have a measurable effect on reducing the penetration of bullets. If it is feasible, set up a bookcase along a common wall. Set up your furniture to channel people into the "safe" backstop areas. A coffee table, recliner and ottoman can direct the way people move through your small space.
However, a couple of important points to make:
1. In a small townhouse where you may not be able to control access to your front door or window and the distances inside the home are small, you may have very little time to respond. Having the best platform may be less important than having a platform. For me, the pistol is the core of any defensive preparation, even though it is one of the less capable firearms for self-defense in terms of accuracy and power, the convenience factor means it can always be present. Even if you don't wish to carry a pistol, the small size typically gives you more options for storing it closeby. If I had no firearms at all, the pistol would be what I would start with. For me the ideal solution is pistol + longgun. The pistol is the always there backup for when time is an issue. If time is less of an issue, then I can access a longgun and use the benefits it offers.
2. All of the four choices you selected have the potential to kill somebody on the other side of a typical interior wall - and pretty much any round that meets the FBI recommended minimum criteria for penetration will as well. The best way to reduce penetration is to make good hits on your attacker's torso. You already seem to have a good grasp on this so I won't belabor the point other than to point out that a longgun offers both a better chance of a hit and more power as well.
3. All four of the platforms you mentioned are good for self-defense. The most critical factor isn't going to be the firearm; but you. Training is a major, major benefit in this regard; so the platform you are most confident with and most familiar with (not just in terms of accuracy; but in terms of loading, clearing malfunctions, operating in disorienting situations, etc.) is probably the best choice. Regardless, definitely look into getting formal training if you can afford it.
4. Even if you can't afford training, take some time to look at the layout of your townhouse. Where are the access points? What are the likely lanes of fire if you wake up to a noise in your bedroom? What if you are defending at the doorway? Give some thought to these things now so you can identify problem backstops now instead of trying to do it while someone tries to kill you. Remember that "reinforcing" doesn't necessarily mean major reconstruction. An oak bookcase stacked with books and newspapers will have a measurable effect on reducing the penetration of bullets. If it is feasible, set up a bookcase along a common wall. Set up your furniture to channel people into the "safe" backstop areas. A coffee table, recliner and ottoman can direct the way people move through your small space.
My vote goes for the 9mm. Does it have to be +p? I carry standard velocity 124gr XTP's. I have no worries.
If you are worried about over penetration of your neighbors house, just don't fire in that direction. Same goes for the other bedroom where you children maybe.
Like they say in hunting, always be sure of your target, and know what's behind it. I know it might be hard to do in the heat of the moment, but a little training will go a long way.
Unload your gun, run some scenarios in your house. Do that a few times so you know where you can shoot and where you can't. I do this.
If you are worried about over penetration of your neighbors house, just don't fire in that direction. Same goes for the other bedroom where you children maybe.
Like they say in hunting, always be sure of your target, and know what's behind it. I know it might be hard to do in the heat of the moment, but a little training will go a long way.
Unload your gun, run some scenarios in your house. Do that a few times so you know where you can shoot and where you can't. I do this.
If the show recommended disc loads and birdshot, I don't trust that show.
Box of Truth - Judge Revisited. The discs didn't penetrate to the level recommended by the FBI (12-18"). They instead penetrated 6-9", and the bbs penetrated less. All you're going to do with birdshot is rip skin, which will hurt - but pain doesn't cause reliable stops. Pain can cause someone to stop, or it can anger them (or they can not feel it until later via adrenaline or other drugs). Causing damage to the CNS or causing a severe loss of blood pressure is what will reliably stop an attacker.
I have never heard of birdshot being used solely for self defense unless the defender is absolutely unwilling to kill someone and just wants to hurt them. I have heard of it being used for self defense in shotguns, but backed by buckshot and/or slugs in case the attacker doesn't stop when you hit him with birdshot.
If 12-gauge birdshot out of a long gun isn't worthy for self-defense, then .410 birdshot out of a 3" barrel definitely isn't.
Shawn Dodson
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I suggest a 12 gauge pump or semi-auto shotgun.
Load it so the first shotshell to be fired is 2 3/4" #6 birdshot or smaller.
Load the rest with 2 3/4" Federal #4 Buckshot (Federal product no. F127 4B).
Load it so the first shotshell to be fired is 2 3/4" #6 birdshot or smaller.
Load the rest with 2 3/4" Federal #4 Buckshot (Federal product no. F127 4B).
WinThePennant
Member
I go round and round on this, but I'm starting to think that the best bedside gun might very well be a carbine that shoots a 9mm cartridge. 9mm carbines have almost ZERO recoil, and handle very well. 9mm coming out of a rifle hits almost as hard as a .357 magnum.
I've heard good things about the Kel-Tec Sub 2000.
I've heard good things about the Kel-Tec Sub 2000.
A pistol caliber carbine is not nearly as useful as a rifle caliber carbine. The recoil on a 5.56mm isn't much, the wound tract is going to be much bigger on a fragmenting 5.56mm than on a hollowpoint 9mm (and fragmentation will be much more reliable than expansion).
The biggest thing is that after going through bone, heavy clothing, or a wall, a 5.56mm round will still fragment or yaw (depending on design). A JHP will very likely fail to expand in these scenarios. If it fails to expand, it will overpenetrate MORE, increasing the risk of collateral damage.
Pistol calibers are designed to fit in handguns and produce effective results in a 4" barrel. They don't gain much from a 16" barrel, where rifle rounds are designed to be more effective. Going for a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber carbine is like asking for all of the benefits of a rifle, but with the power of a pistol.
The biggest thing is that after going through bone, heavy clothing, or a wall, a 5.56mm round will still fragment or yaw (depending on design). A JHP will very likely fail to expand in these scenarios. If it fails to expand, it will overpenetrate MORE, increasing the risk of collateral damage.
Pistol calibers are designed to fit in handguns and produce effective results in a 4" barrel. They don't gain much from a 16" barrel, where rifle rounds are designed to be more effective. Going for a pistol caliber carbine over a rifle caliber carbine is like asking for all of the benefits of a rifle, but with the power of a pistol.
rem22long40x
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000 buckshot not good for home defense
If your going to use a shotgun for home defense you don't wount something that will be more likely to pinetate walls ,yours or your neighbors . you will end up hurting or killing someone you didn't wish to . #6-#9 are best for in home defense. you might get away with buck shot if you used mini shells like those that are 1.5 in . thanks David
If your going to use a shotgun for home defense you don't wount something that will be more likely to pinetate walls ,yours or your neighbors . you will end up hurting or killing someone you didn't wish to . #6-#9 are best for in home defense. you might get away with buck shot if you used mini shells like those that are 1.5 in . thanks David
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rem22long40x
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I would also use frangebal hand gun loads , as far as the loud bang unless you fire more than 1 round and being that you will most likely be full of adrenalen you'll never here the ferst round its not like shooting at the range , and if everyone else is asleep mostlikey thay will beerly waken ,there again if only one round is fired .
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rem22long40x
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skribs: Really Byrd? Birdshot for HD? Even out of a 12-gauge that's really dangerous to use in self-defense. The tiny shot won't penetrate enough to reliably stop your target.
have you ever seen what #6-#9 SHOT will do at 0-15 ft. there is no or very very littel spred [out of a shotgun] I don't wont to be on the other end of that lol. now out of a Judge you might have a point ,might .
have you ever seen what #6-#9 SHOT will do at 0-15 ft. there is no or very very littel spred [out of a shotgun] I don't wont to be on the other end of that lol. now out of a Judge you might have a point ,might .
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