New P365, new favorite CCW

[zaitcev]

I believe other manufacturers will design something similar.

Kel-Tec built a gun with the same dimensions (!), same capacity, same caliber - back in 1995. And it was 20% lighter than P365. George Kellgren did not need a tricky magazine either: P-11 uses a fairly traditional staggered stack magazine.

The P-11 was widely cloned by other manufacturers, although the only truly successful clone came from SCCY, and it's somewhat thicker than either P-11 or P365. Strangely enough, Ruger chose to clone Kel-Tec P-3AT instead. Still, I don't see why it would be difficult for anyone else to build a competitive gun even without SIG's patents.

P.S. Note that although P-11 is the same in measured dimensions, P365 has a smaller circumference at the thumb level. The ergonomics is what the tricky magazine buys in this case, not outright thickness.

 

[Paul7]

There is not any "right" answer I think for everyone on what constitutes the perfect EDC gun or even the perfect EDC caliber. It is what works for each of us, and as others have pointed out, hits are better than misses, and if you get more hits with .380 vs. 9mm, then that might be the best caliber for you. I wouldn't want to get hit by either one!

A guy on another forum had a ND go off in his pocket, due to an exposed trigger and keys in the same pocket. It broke his femur.

 

[TarDevil]

A guy on another forum had a ND go off in his pocket, due to an exposed trigger and keys in the same pocket. It broke his femur.

Sounds completely avoidable.

 

[Walkalong]

2. Is the 9mm a significantly better choice than the .380? (not significantly - but yes, better)

I am going to respectfully disagree here.

Looking forward to when I can put my hands on a P365 to judge for myself.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Kel-Tec built a gun with the same dimensions (!), same capacity, same caliber - back in 1995. And it was 20% lighter than P365. George Kellgren did not need a tricky magazine either: P-11 uses a fairly traditional staggered stack magazine.

The P-11 was widely cloned by other manufacturers, although the only truly successful clone came from SCCY, and it's somewhat thicker than either P-11 or P365. Strangely enough, Ruger chose to clone Kel-Tec P-3AT instead. Still, I don't see why it would be difficult for anyone else to build a competitive gun even without SIG's patents.

P.S. Note that although P-11 is the same in measured dimensions, P365 has a smaller circumference at the thumb level. The ergonomics is what the tricky magazine buys in this case, not outright thickness.

I noticed my P365 is markedly more ergonomic than the P11. Granted I don't own a P11 and haven't shot one in a while, but the longer taper of the magazine does help a lot for the feel of the gun in the grip ring made by your index finger, the web of your thumb, and your thumb.

 

[Paul7]

Sounds completely avoidable.

It was, it just shows though that the .380 can do some damage. He was a big guy too. Pretty sure if a BG had his femur broken he'd go pick on someone else.

 

[Doublehelix]

It was, it just shows though that the .380 can do some damage. He was a big guy too. Pretty sure if a BG had his femur broken he'd go pick on someone else.

I know *I* would!!!

I am so used to SAO guns with thumb safeties, I am not sure how well I will do without having that built-in thumb rest!

It is of course what you are trained to use, but I guess I just feel... er... "safer" with guns that have safeties. I know many, many, many shooters that feel just the opposite.

 

[Hokkmike]

I am going to respectfully disagree here.

Looking forward to when I can put my hands on a P365 to judge for myself.

If you'd care to quantify your disagreement I would be very happy to read it. Not arguing, just trying to learn. I am trying to decide whether to go from the G-42 to P-365, so all information is appreciated.

 

[TomJ]

If you'd care to quantify your disagreement I would be very happy to read it. Not arguing, just trying to learn. I am trying to decide whether to go from the G-42 to P-365, so all information is appreciated.

Attached is a link to testing Lucky Gunner did. Speaking in generalities, 380 either did not expand but penetrated sufficiently or expanded and did not penetrate sufficiently. There were a couple of rounds that tested well. 9mm fared better, with more of the ammo tested expanding and penetrating well. That being said, if you go with a 9mm that you don't shoot well and can't hit your target these results are meaningless.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

 

[Walkalong]

If you'd care to quantify your disagreement I

That being said, if you go with a 9mm that you don't shoot well and can't hit your target these results are meaningless.

Quality hits are definitely the most important thing, but, IMHO, the 9MM has more than a "not significant" uptick in power.

 

[Doublehelix]

Ah heck, just go for a 50 caliber and say "forget about it"!

 

[Paul7]

Quality hits are definitely the most important thing, but, IMHO, the 9MM has more than a "not significant" uptick in power.

As well as twice the recoil on a similar weight gun. That translates into harder follow up shots.

 

[scaatylobo]

Went to outdoor range tonight [ in the rain ] and fired about 130 rounds of various makers.

All were H.P.'s of one variation or another.

All fed well and at 9 yards all were a grouping [ offhand ] that I was very happy with [ averaged about 4" ].

Looks like she is going to be a CCW tool really soon.

Another few range sessions and I will be sure.

 

[Walkalong]

As well as twice the recoil on a similar weight gun. That translates into harder follow up shots.

Which isn't the point.

That said, if one can't handle that, maybe they should stick with something else. The point was whether the 9MM was "not significantly better/more powerful/better against humans. We simply disagreed on that point. The can you shoot it well is a different subject. A good point if you wish to discuss it, but has nothing to do with whether it is marginally better.

 

[340PD]

The mods must be asleep.This thread has devolved into a 380 vs 9mm thread so I will throw in my 2¢. Three or four years ago ATK came into our range with several hundred pounds of gel and fired everything from 5.56 -.32 auto with their latest and greatest to show the cops what they had and where they were going.
They have created ammo that will penetrate and expand to 12-14" regardless of caliber. Their recommendation, .380 bare minimum for use as a BUG. 9MM or 38+P being a far better choice and the 9mm standing out because most duty pistols are going back from 40 cal to 9mm so no need for a officer to carry two calibers which could be a disaster in a SHTF situation.

Regardless of caliber, small guns reflect more recoil than any full size model so lets compare apples to apples. When comparing the G42 to the P365, I have shot both a lot and own the P365 and I see no less felt recoil in the G42 over the P365. Therefore, followup shots depend on the ergonomics and the training of the shooter. The P series Sigs have a higher bore axis than Glocks but somehow every student I have trained seems to shoot them well. For the most part, I cannot say that for Glocks where I see a lot of shots consistantly left of center.

Unless you are a handloader there is a significant difference in ammo cost and availability that heavily favors the 9mm.

I carry a LCP in the back pocket of my jeans on my walks through the neighborhood, beyond that I want a 9mm with as much capacity as I can find in a gun I can put in my pocket if needed.
If this Sig CONTINUES to prove itself, I think it will change the way people think about what they want in a small carry semi auto.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

As well as twice the recoil on a similar weight gun. That translates into harder follow up shots.

My experience is that recoil on small .380 ACP pistols is just as bad as 9mm (which is to say, not bad at all, but not any lighter), which I assume is because most small .380 ACP pistols are blowback operated and not recoil operated.

 

[Paul7]

Regardless of caliber, small guns reflect more recoil than any full size model so lets compare apples to apples. When comparing the G42 to the P365, I have shot both a lot and own the P365 and I see no less felt recoil in the G42 over the P365.

Interesting, I have a G42 but have not shot the P365 yet. Would like to see for myself since recoil tables have a 9mm at twice the .380 recoil in a similar weight gun. The G42 is the only .380 I've owned that is actually enjoyable to shoot, which for me means more practice. I'm at the age where recoil and blast matter, and have a touchy wrist from a break 40 years ago, so am interested in this question.

 

[Paul7]

This is why I see no reason to ditch my G42 for a P365:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

 

[Godsgunman]

Personally I liked the p224 series that's been discontinued. Pretty much the size of the g26, 4oz heavier. Classic DA/SA. Not sure why it wasn't very popular. At a little under 18oz I'm not sure how comfortable the 365 is to shoot. Recoil isn't something v that bothers me, I just like enough heft to remind me I'm carrying

Side note I wonder if they numbered it 365 on purpose, being small enough to carry everyday of the year

 

[Hokkmike]

Currently, considering the loss I would take, I am not inclined to do the P-365 - G-42 switch. The G-42 is definitely the superior pocket gun, which is my exclusive mode of carry. And I LOVE the Alabama holster.

 

[george burns]

I picked up a PC shield in 45. It pocket carries. Not as well as 1/2 dozen other small 9's and an xds, sized guns, but the slim grip, makes it doable. I like 7 rounds of 45 with a spare mag. It may be harder to double tap, but that remains to be seen. I haven't really carried it alone due to the fact that I haven't shot it yet. But I have carries it as a BUG. I imagine the 9mm PC shield in the new version is even easier to conceal, but it's just 8 vs 7 with the flush magazine, and I prefer a 45 to a 9 if possible. The 45 is a tiny bit larger than the 9/40.

 

[Paul7]

Currently, considering the loss I would take, I am not inclined to do the P-365 - G-42 switch. The G-42 is definitely the superior pocket gun, which is my exclusive mode of carry. And I LOVE the Alabama holster.

After looking into it, that was my conclusion to all the P365 hullabaloo also.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

This is why I see no reason to ditch my G42 for a P365:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I'm also a big fan of Ellifritz's work, but I would note that while caliber differences probably only show marginal increases of effectiveness that are inside the margin of error, capacity remains an important consideration.

However, the flatness of the G42 will lend itself to pocket carry more. If you carry literally anywhere but there, though...

 

[340PD]

Paul7: I think carry guns and the stopping power myth come down to this, How many shots can one accurately put on target in a SHTF situation. If you are comfortable with your G42 why move to a Sig P365? If the only reason being more capacity that is easily solved by dropping an extra mag in your pocket. I have a lot of respect for the little 380's and they serve their purpose. I prefer the nine just because factory loaded ammo is inexpensive and that allows one to practice more plus I personally shoot my P365 better than any other small carry gun I have owned, so for me this is a no brainer.

As for the recoil, I am not recoil sensitive so a poor judge but the 380's are usually far lighter guns than a 9mm so felt recoil is probably pretty close in most peoples hands.

 

[CNobbe]

I've got about 450 rounds through my 365 now, it's holding its own. My two small 9mms are a Kimber Micro Raptor 9mm and the 365, they both feel about the same in terms of recoil, the 365 would be the one I'd shoot all day if I had to.