New P365, new favorite CCW

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Attached is a link to testing Lucky Gunner did. Speaking in generalities, 380 either did not expand but penetrated sufficiently or expanded and did not penetrate sufficiently.

The Lucky Gunner testing, Hornady Critical Defense penetrated fine in 4 of 5 shots and was an inch or so short in one each. They all expanded. This was looking at 9mm 115 grain and 380 90 grains. They seem close in performance. They are available and priced sanely.

Having said that, comparing a 90 grain bullet at 910 fps to a 115 grain bullet at 1143 fps seems like a no brainer.

I think it comes down to the question, are you comfortable with the 380. And if you move up to a 9, will you carry it, or will you leave it at home? Most of the time I am fine with the 380. Sometimes not.

It is great to have options.
 
I was quite curious about the new sig. I need a smaller ccw pistol. I have a few 38 specials but my main is a 9mm beretta and would love to only have one caliber for my autoloaders. I saw that it compares closely in both round count and size to the sccy and the p11. I’ve wanted a p11 since they came out. Their reputation has scared me though.
 
Looking at some ammo stats yesterday on one of the many emails I get daily, there is some hot ammo for 380's that is comparable to 9mm, with the penetration depth more than the FBI requires. I don't know how much recoil they have but in the right gun, it would pretty much do the same thing as a standard 115 grain 9mm HP. I carried a ppk's in NY when there were no small 9mm guns, and it was never questioned at the time weather it would drop someone. I only carry 9 & 45 now because of the advances in small handguns, to me it's just silly to carry a 40 oz gun when you can get a 20 oz gun that carries the same or more ammo. A lot of guys who used to carry big heavy guns realized that a Shield sized gun with 8 ior 9 rounds and 1 oe 2 reloads, is more than sufficient for all but an all out attack by a squad of armed men, you aren't going to last that long in reality unless you have cover, and a phone if there are 2 or 3 men shooting at you, but that's not likely to happen.
In the home there is no excuse to not have your best gun at the ready, best in terms of capacity and reliability, weather that's a pistol, rifle or shotgun. A shotgun is harder to handle in an enclosed area, but does the most damage.
 
My experience is that recoil on small .380 ACP pistols is just as bad as 9mm (which is to say, not bad at all, but not any lighter), which I assume is because most small .380 ACP pistols are blowback operated and not recoil operated.

I hear, "most small .380 ACP pistols are blowback operated," on a regular basis and I question it. It is almost into the category of "myths." As an example of .380 pistols, counting my 9mm Makarov, I have five. Of those, only the Makarov is blowback. I am not going to deny that there are blowback .380 pistols on the market. Of popular .380 pistols, both the Bersa and the High-Point are bowback. There, I am done, I have named all of the popular blowback .380 pistols. Yes, there is the PPK and the Beretta Cougar family. I think most can agree that those models are not hot sellers.

However, most modern .380 Pistols use some form of delayed blowback/lickig breech mechanism. There is the entire Colt Government model family which includes, not surprisingly, the .380 Government model, the mustang, Sig, Kimber, Springfield. Then there is the Glock 42, the Walther PK38, and Smith & Wesson shield. There is the whole family of Kel-Tek derivatives. I can keep going, the point is, the, "most small .380 ACP pistols are blowback operated," is almost a myth.

Yes, I carry a .380 and consider it to be an adequate self-defense cartridge. I have been considering a 9mm due to the sheer number of designs in that caliber. However, the cost issue is a small one, I reload my practice ammunition. I am very concerned with over-penetration. I realize that many people consider over-penetration to be a myth. What I see is that that position (considering over-penetration to be a myth) is based on the assumption that all shots will hit the threat. That is a great goal; however, it does not bear well in examinations of actual shootings.

I will say that, considering my over penetration concern, I have been looking hard at the .22tcm. I would love to see some dry-wall tests of that round. My biggest concern there is the likely-hood that the .22tcm is not going to be available for a long time. At the present I carry ARX ammunition in my .380. This summer I plan to do my own series of dry wall tests and see if there is any good reason to continue carrying that round, as compared to the XTP that has good reviews and I can practice with much more affordably.

Returning to my original point, It is almost uncommon to see a blowback .380 pistol in actual use. At the present I also carry a Glock 42, which I consider entirely adequate for self-defense purposes. However, like others in this thread, I am looking closely at the SIG 365.

In the home there is no excuse to not have your best gun at the ready, best in terms of capacity and reliability, weather that's a pistol, rifle or shotgun. A shotgun is harder to handle in an enclosed area, but does the most damage.[emphasis mine]

I question this bit of conventional wisdom. I will argue that the 5.6 is the best for home defense. First, the AR is an excellent platform with over 40 years of use. However, I am focusing on the round itself. It is a proven stopper. Further, it has, close to, the lowest over-penetration risk of common defensive cartridges ( I say close, because while the .22lr is a common defensive cartridge, I would not recommend it). This well known experiment showed the 40gr 5.56 round as being a significantly more "neighbor safe" self defensive round than the ubiquitous 12ga buck shot.
 
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I question this bit of conventional wisdom. I will argue that the 5.6 is the best for home defense. First, the AR is an excellent platform with over 40 years of use. However, I am focusing on the round itself. It is a proven stopper. Further, it has, close to, the lowest over-penetration risk of common defensive cartridges ( I say close, because while the .22lr is a common defensive cartridge, I would not recommend it). This well known experiment showed the 40gr 5.56 round as being a significantly more "neighbor safe" self defensive round than the ubiquitous 12ga buck shot.

I'm confused, if a .380 is adequate for a CCW (which it is), why is a 5.6 needed for home SD? I value my hearing too much to fire a 5.6 indoors when a handgun will do the job.
 
I'm confused, if a .380 is adequate for a CCW (which it is), why is a 5.6 needed for home SD? I value my hearing too much to fire a 5.6 indoors when a handgun will do the job.

The most obvious point is that I don't want to walk around with a AR. The next point is that, with some ammunition, the AR has an even lower wall penetration risk than a .380. So yes, the AR is a better Self Defense platform. It is just too much to carry. If you feel comfortable carting an AR with you all the time, then yes, it is a better choice.

That being said I feel your post is an example of trying to pick at a point, in an attempt to create a disagreement when there is none. Thou should note that I was responding to two different posts, in the second the principal was that the AR platform is a better home defense choice than a shotgun. The answer to your silly question is obvious. If the answer to your silly question isn't obvious then I would suggest that you are confusing the concepts of "ideal" and "suitable."
 
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Is this thread still about the P365? (I wonder if SiG will produce a similar model in .380ACP.)


I would hope so, my interests is in finding if it is a comfortable "shoot for a few hours" gun. Obviously, I want to be able to pass qualification tests. In addition, I like to be able to take my CCW pistol to the range on a regular basis.

To replace my G-42, the P365 needs to be comfortable, and dare I say pleasant, to shoot.
 
I'm definately interested, but am going to wait until things calm down with them. Some of the prices people are paying on Gunbroker are above the MSRP, so it does look like Sig has the hot gun right now.
 
The most obvious point is that I don't want to walk around with a AR. The next point is that, with some ammunition, the AR has an even lower wall penetration risk than a .380. So yes, the AR is a better Self Defense platform. It is just too much to carry. If you feel comfortable carting an AR with you all the time, then yes, it is a better choice.

That being said I feel your post is an example of trying to pick at a point, in an attempt to create a disagreement when there is none. Thou should note that I was responding to two different posts, in the second the principal was that the AR platform is a better home defense choice than a shotgun. The answer to your silly question is obvious. If the answer to your silly question isn't obvious then I would suggest that you are confusing the concepts of "ideal" and "suitable."

Not a silly question at all, this is a gun forum.
 
I was quite curious about the new sig. I need a smaller ccw pistol. I have a few 38 specials but my main is a 9mm beretta and would love to only have one caliber for my autoloaders. I saw that it compares closely in both round count and size to the sccy and the p11. I’ve wanted a p11 since they came out. Their reputation has scared me though.

I have not heard bad things about the P11's reliability, YMMV.
 
I have the Rohrbaugh R9 and the Remington RM380 - basically the same pistol but different calibers.

When I purchased the R9, all of the testing that was available to me showed 380 bullets either expanding and stopping at 10 inches or less when run against the IWBA protocol, or they zipped right out the back of 16 inch blocks of gelatin.

Neither one was unacceptable to me. There were similar tests of 9mm cartridges with bullets penetrating 14 to 16 inches and expanding anywhere from .55 to .64 caliber. So I purchased a 9mm pocket pistol instead of a 380 ACP pocket pistol.

Then ShootingTheBull410 started doing his short-barreled / 380-pocket-pistol tests of 380 ACP ammunition and he turns up Precision One's loading of the Hornady XTP



Is it as good as the best 9mm SD ammo? No - but it's penetrating 13½ inches through 4x denim and that's OK. It's generally good enough for a good percentage of self-defense situations, in my opinion.

I purchased two RM380s after he posted his test results.

I shoot the RM380 much more quickly than the R9. I think I can get 3 shots on target in the same amount of time that I can shoot twice with the R9.
 
Is this thread still about the P365? (I wonder if SiG will produce a similar model in .380ACP.)

No offense, but what would be the point? The P365 is already among the two or three smallest 9mm guns on the market and the only reason I see for a 380 version is capacity and at 10+1 now, squeezing a couple more 380's in the mag may be of little importance. If Sig enters the 380 world they would have a mountain of competition and I question if it would be worth it to them. They already have with their 1911 clones and Kahr does it with their 380 vs 9mm but I suspect the CM/PM series is the winner in their lineup. Sig would have a long way to go to compete with the LCP and as size is reduced so is felt recoil so.....
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I have the Rohrbaugh R9 and the Remington RM380 - basically the same pistol but different calibers.

When I purchased the R9, all of the testing that was available to me showed 380 bullets either expanding and stopping at 10 inches or less when run against the IWBA protocol, or they zipped right out the back of 16 inch blocks of gelatin.

Neither one was unacceptable to me. There were similar tests of 9mm cartridges with bullets penetrating 14 to 16 inches and expanding anywhere from .55 to .64 caliber. So I purchased a 9mm pocket pistol instead of a 380 ACP pocket pistol.

Then ShootingTheBull410 started doing his short-barreled / 380-pocket-pistol tests of 380 ACP ammunition and he turns up Precision One's loading of the Hornady XTP



Is it as good as the best 9mm SD ammo? No - but it's penetrating 13½ inches through 4x denim and that's OK. It's generally good enough for a good percentage of self-defense situations, in my opinion.

I purchased two RM380s after he posted his test results.

I shoot the RM380 much more quickly than the R9. I think I can get 3 shots on target in the same amount of time that I can shoot twice with the R9.



I was so eager to buy the R-9 that I paid full price at the time.

Thankfully it is LONG gone as it was THE worst 9mm that I have ever owned or fired [ RECOIL ].

I even still have a Kimber solo that is not actually pleasant to shoot,but that beats the R-9 by a country mile.

I own a P365 and it is a HUGE improvement over the R-9,and any other smallish 9mm pistol.

The only one that beats it is the Glock 26,and that is a bit bigger and much heavier.
 
Aesthetically it’s simple and clean and it looks like it has enough grip I can get my pinky on it. I hate having a three finger grip. Pardon me if it says it somewhere upstream but about what is the trigger pull?
 
. One other thing here is the amount of weight that the extra 4 or 6 bullets weigh in the 365, is going to make it feel almost as heavy as most other larger guns for pocket carry. That is the problem with any high cap mag, it weighs as much as the gun when you start putting 11-12 rounds in it. The 365 is 17.8ozs that is what the Sig website says, I don't know if the mag is in or out, since they don't say I assume it's out. Add the mag and 11 rounds and you may have a 20+oz. gun, that is heavier than my Kahr PM9, unloaded, maybe 5 Oz's more with the mag loaded.
So now you are at the edge of the weight factor for pocket carry. If you use the Liberty ammo, you can cut the bullet weight by about 30%. But it depends what you like to shoot. Honestly I have to see the gun and feel the weight before dropping another 5 hundred plus 2-300 in extras, on another 9mm safe queen. Plus I am cranky because my refrigerator blew out and cost me 4x as much as a new Sig, everything is just so expensive if your wife is like mine.
 
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George,
You are correct. The P365 is noticeably heavier than my PM9. I doubt I will pocket carry the P365 nearly as much as the Kahr but the capacity and size for IWB is really cool.
 
Is it safe to buy a P365 now? I heard there were some teething pains initially and I didn't know if SIG was addressing them. Sometimes manufacturers silently fix minor problems without formal updates so I was hoping somebody could speak to that, if they are "in the know". I'd prefer first hand knowledge over speculation.

I want one, but I can wait too if something is being modified/improved/updated. Thanks.
 
Sometimes manufacturers silently fix minor problems without formal updates so I was hoping somebody could speak to that, if they are "in the know".
SIG was relatively open about the production suspension, resumption, and updates. Although they didn't post any press releases, their PR representative posted updates to Facebook, including the list of changes. So it wasn't like Glock Kremlinology with comparing part numbers and dimensions, in this case.
 
George,
You are correct. The P365 is noticeably heavier than my PM9. I doubt I will pocket carry the P365 nearly as much as the Kahr but the capacity and size for IWB is really cool.
Thanks, as I thought. I already have so many guns that hold 8,9,,10 rounds, that unless the thing was lighter or smaller or did something unique, "like had a laser built into the frame, I can't se another 9mm small pistol in my future. I carry 2 spare mags for every gun I carry, and it takes no time to load in a fresh one. s I have 20 rounds ready to go, in most of my small 9's and 45's. And each time you get set up with a new gun, it's not just the gun, but the holsters etc. so before you know it you dropped another 9-1000 on a set up that isn't all that different from what you had. Just my 2 cents.
 
Is it safe to buy a P365 now? I heard there were some teething pains initially and I didn't know if SIG was addressing them. Sometimes manufacturers silently fix minor problems without formal updates so I was hoping somebody could speak to that, if they are "in the know". I'd prefer first hand knowledge over speculation.

I want one, but I can wait too if something is being modified/improved/updated. Thanks.

A quick and easy check is that all of the new production guns have Sig XRay3 sights instead of Siglite night sights. The XRay3 sights look like Trijicon HDs. So if you have a big fluorescent ring around your front sight... your gun is new.
 
SIG was relatively open about the production suspension, resumption, and updates. Although they didn't post any press releases, their PR representative posted updates to Facebook, including the list of changes. So it wasn't like Glock Kremlinology with comparing part numbers and dimensions, in this case.

Around this part of the country, that gun is made out of Unobtanium. There are none on any shelves so if you see one, you can rest assured it is a new one. I talked to a major retailer in this area and they have seen a total of 2 since the gun was introduced last last year.
 
I have a Kahr P9 that I'm not all too happy with, so I plan on replacing it with this. Assuming my calculations are correct, it's slightly smaller than a P9. I would be fine with that...the PM9 was too small for me. But seeing how this is (will be) my carry piece, getting the bugs worked out of it is crucial.
Carry_options.xlsx_-_Excel.jpg
 
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A quick and easy check is that all of the new production guns have Sig XRay3 sights instead of Siglite night sights. The XRay3 sights look like Trijicon HDs. So if you have a big fluorescent ring around your front sight... your gun is new.
Have a pic?
 
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