New thinking about AR-15

[Quentin]

I'm fairly sure most of us AR owners here do not belong to the "tacti-cool crowd". Anyone truly familiar with the AR knows its advantages and why it makes sense to have one in your home. I doubt you could find a more flexible and modular rifle platform these days. And most of the features others may think are "tacti-cool" actually serve a purpose.

 

[swiftak]

Why would you consider anyone who owns or is interested in an AR15 to be "tacti-cool"? Some of us just like the style of the guns and became interested in them while in the service. Other people just are interested in them as another option or different style gun. They are fun to shoot and hunt with.
I bet the majority of people who own AR15s are the complete opposite from "tacti-cool".

 

[holdencm9]

The tacti-cool perception is definitely just a stereotype. Like all stereotypes, there will be a few who actually fit the bill. I highly doubt many people at THR fit the bill though. I don't think the OP meant it as a personal jab anyway. And I think over time the perception of AR and AK owners as "tactic-cool" or "operator" wannabes will subside. When people realize that their sons, daughters, uncles, coworkers, neighbors and friends seem to all have an AR in their safe.

To the OP, they are great rifles. Very accurate. You can build one however you want. Since it seems like target shooting is the primary focus for you, you can definitely build something to suit your needs, and with a bull barrel, fixed stock, no lights or lasers, and big scope on top, it will be far from tacti-!

 

[Bill4282]

First, unless your AR or AK can shoot full auto, it is not an "assault rifle". Second, the "A" in AR stands for Armalite, the maker not assault. Armalite has sued others that name their rifles AR, that's why Bushmaster doesn't call their rifles ARs. Third, if you go to the range and see the guys with the decked out ARs with lasers, bayonets, vertical grips, etc. most can't shoot worth a flip, just spray and prayers. The A in AK stands for Alexi as in Alexi Kalishnokov, the designer.

 

[Warp]

First, unless your AR or AK can shoot full auto, it is not an "assault rifle". Second, the "A" in AR stands for Armalite, the maker not assault. Armalite has sued others that name their rifles AR, that's why Bushmaster doesn't call their rifles ARs. Third, if you go to the range and see the guys with the decked out ARs with lasers, bayonets, vertical grips, etc. most can't shoot worth a flip, just spray and prayers. The A in AK stands for Alexi as in Alexi Kalishnokov, the designer.

Do you regularly see guys at your range with bayonets on their ARs?

 

[meanmrmustard]

Do you regularly see guys at your range with bayonets on their ARs?

I have...ONCE. Several years ago.

Most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite some time.

 

[Reloadron]

I've never owned an AR and never had any real interest in owning one. I've never really been into the tacti-cool crowd. My biggest want/need for most of my firearms, except self-defense handguns, is target shooting. I like recreational target shooting at paper targets. I enjoy slow fire target shooting for relaxation and stress-relief.

Lately, I'm thinking of the possibility of adding an AR to my collection once the current panic settles down. My reasons are: good ergonomics of the AR, relatively inexpensive ammo once things get back to 'normal', and exercise of my right to own a military-style 'assault' weapon.

Anyone else get an AR for these reasons?

Probably my biggest objection is having my brass flung all over and requiring me to chase it down. I have begun reloading and would intend to reload 223 were I to acquire an AR.

I own 3 AR type rifles, none of which comes close to being tacticool. While tacticool has its merits, I don't have a need for the features. Heck, I don't even have a collapsible stock.



The rifle in the foreground is a Colt Target Sporter (5.56 NATO) which is a pleasure and enjoyable to shoot. With a 1:7 twist I like using 80 grain hand loads and shooting them one at a time. Relaxing and fun.

The middle rifle is my AR 10 (7.62 NATO) by Armalite with a match barrel and sights. I do have a scope package and original open sights for it. Again with the open sights while not as comfortable to shoot it is very enjoyable to shoot.

In the back is a mixmaster of sorts I ended up with on a very good deal. It is a Double Star with a match barrel (again 1:7 twist). This is my only AR that I shoot with a scope. The lesson I learned from this rifle was the name does not have to be Colt for the rifle to be very accurate and reliable. It fell in my lap, shoots fine and should last a long time.

So as to non tacticool rifles there are a few examples. After shooting any of my bolt guns or M1A or a Garand on the range I enjoy shooting some .223 which is much less punishing and just generally fun to shoot. That, as well as relaxing.

I suggest you shop around a little and if you get the opportunity try a few flavors and designs. See what works for you and trips your trigger. After all, it will be your rifle to enjoy as you see fit. I focused on AR type rifles as you mentioned AR type rifles.

Just My Take.....
Ron

 

[M1key]

The A in AK stands for Alexi as in Alexi Kalishnokov, the designer.

Mikhail Kalashnikov to you sonny...

The "A" is for Avtomat Kalashnikova

M

 

[Eb1]

I like my AR. The one I have now is a frank-n-rifle. It has a Dissy PSA Upper and a basic lower with Mil Spec trigger, DPMS rear A2 sight, MOE rifle hand guards, A2 buttstock, and mostly 20 round mags.

I like it, shoots to 600 with great accuracy. Other than my lever guns and Model 60 I like it. I have never had an AR fail on me. Not even shooting 600 rounds in a day for three days straight.
I do see guys at the range sometimes with 10 pieces of gear that have nothing to do with the rifle stuck to the gun have issues, and seem confused why the laser light is making the gun not fire.

But... My basic no frills AR 15 just keeps banging away. K-I-S-S for me. Keep the flash.

I have killed many deer with the .223 55 grain soft point. I don't have a problem shooting deer with a .223. No more than anyone using a .357 lever gun should. Or for that matter, a .410 shotgun slug.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Mikhail Kalashnikov to you sonny...

The "A" is for Avtomat Kalashnikova

M

You are correct, sir.

Give the man his hammer and scicle!

 

[meanmrmustard]

No, I did not get one for any of these reasons.

Tacticool is a buzzword that needs killing.

Ammo, of any real accuracy value, isn't that cheap.

Ergos? Kinda sorta, takes getting used to the platform to know what's what. But, once you've felt her up a few times, she gets easier!!!

Why'd I buy mine? Simple: accuracy. It's my most accurate semi. I can make AKs almost as accurate with select ammo, tweaking, customizing, optics, etc. But, by the end of the day, the AR is still just a bit better...right outta the box.

While I'm not a fan of Mr. Stoners design (crapping where it eats), he got a few things right. Everyone should have at least one.

 

[Warp]

No, I did not get one for any of these reasons.

Tacticool is a buzzword that needs killing.

Ammo, of any real accuracy value, isn't that cheap.

Ergos? Kinda sorta, takes getting used to the platform to know what's what. But, once you've felt her up a few times, she gets easier!!!

Why'd I buy mine? Simple: accuracy. It's my most accurate semi. I can make AKs almost as accurate with select ammo, tweaking, customizing, optics, etc. But, by the end of the day, the AR is still just a bit better...right outta the box.

While I'm not a fan of Mr. Stoners design (crapping where it eats), he got a few things right. Everyone should have at least one.

Why not?

Lube, shoot 500-1,000 rounds (or whatever), field strip (takes 1 minute), wipe down, re-apply lube, possibly run something down the bore real quick...get back to shooting. What's wrong with that?

 

[justice06rr]

Tacticool, "Mall-Ninja", all these are just stereotypes for the AR15.

It can be as simple and functional as you need it to be without having all the unnecessary gadgets that people hang on them.

I would say an AR15 can be a good investment and addition to your arsenal.

Also, many people forget that the AR is not limited to 5.56/223 only. That is the beauty of the AR; you can run anything from 22lr up to 50Beowulf. To say that its not suitable for hunting just means you don't know all the options available to the AR15 platform.

 

[Thunderstick]

I purchased a Rock River Tactical Entry model in 2009 as the 25th anniversary gift from my wife. Call me tacticool or whatever but I love the fact that there are so many after market products available to customize. For the record, I have no bayonet for mine (although I do for my M1 and M1903A3 ) or lasers or vertical grips. I did add a Troy Rail and rail covers and an Eotech site. It's a very accurate rifle, and I used to buy (hopefully will again soon) ammo in 20 round boxes for $5.99 on sale.

 

[Warp]

I purchased a Rock River Tactical Entry model in 2009 as the 25th anniversary gift from my wife. Call me tacticool or whatever but I love the fact that there are so many after market products available to customize. For the record, I have no bayonet for mine (although I do for my M1 and M1903A3 ) or lasers or vertical grips. I did add a Troy Rail and rail covers and an Eotech site. It's a very accurate rifle, and I used to buy (hopefully will again soon) ammo in 20 round boxes for $5.99 on sale.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with a vertical grip.

All three of mine have a stubby VFG (vertical foregrip)

No, I don't wrap my hand around the grip to use it. Not a fan of that. It's a reference point/hand stop, and for shooting on barriers/obstacles

 

[meanmrmustard]

Why not?

Lube, shoot 500-1,000 rounds (or whatever), field strip (takes 1 minute), wipe down, re-apply lube, possibly run something down the bore real quick...get back to shooting. What's wrong with that?

I know, I know.

It's just an aside, and I bring it up as I see it as a flaw. I may never have any issue with it, but when I do clean the thing it is quite filthy. If I find myself outside my cleaning schedule for my ARs, then I tend to wonder if I'll have a failure.

Have I? Very few. Never with my Sport, though. FTEs with the RRA and Hornady Vmax. But only twice. The thing was quite dirty, after only about 300 rounds. I cannot say it was the culprit, but the BCG, chamber, inner receiver, and bolt face were quite carbon-covered and slightly gritty. Wiped it all down, and no problems

I have no worries with my SKSs or AK variants. Are they better? Not overall. But, I don't clean them nearly as often, as I don't have to. Also, being that they are chambered in a tapered cartridge, I'm not too worried about extraction issues.

They won't group quite as well as the ARs, even with mods. But, close nonetheless. You know what they say about "close" though!

As I said, I go to the AR for precision work, but personally not battle. I have hunted with one on a few occasions...not to shabby.

 

[Warp]

You know I would say that it being an RRA could be part of the issue. It could also not have started out with enough lube.

I've gone 500+ rounds without cleaning, adding lube, or anything, and not had any problems. It'll run dirty just fine, as long as it didn't start out dry after the last cleaning.

It's almost impossible to use too much lube. If there is any doubt in your mind at all, use more lube. You can literally dunk the BCG in oil and slide it into the gun and you will be infinitely better off than if the thing was too dry.

That's part of the "Trick" to getting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of flawless rounds without doing anything other than inserting more mags

 

[meanmrmustard]

You know I would say that it being an RRA could be part of the issue. It could also not have started out with enough lube.

I've gone 500+ rounds without cleaning, adding lube, or anything, and not had any problems. It'll run dirty just fine, as long as it didn't start out dry after the last cleaning.

It's almost impossible to use too much lube. If there is any doubt in your mind at all, use more lube. You can literally dunk the BCG in oil and slide it into the gun and you will be infinitely better off than if the thing was too dry.

That's part of the "Trick" to getting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of flawless rounds without doing anything other than inserting more mags

It's gone anyway. Sold it to fund a car project.

I have to wonder though: Lube, enclosed and kept free of outside interference, is like you say "part of the trick". However, if not, it is an "adhesive", if you will for foreign and domestic grime, particles, and fouling.

I do not dunk my Sports innards in lube, but rather lightly oil the inner workings. I run it this way for the reason stated above. It has never failed. Now, it isn't run dry by any means, but no more oiled than I'd run a bolt gun.

I trust it, but I do use a cleaning schedule. I am realistic.

 

[Warp]

It's gone anyway. Sold it to fund a car project.

I have to wonder though: Lube, enclosed and kept free of outside interference, is like you say "part of the trick". However, if not, it is an "adhesive", if you will for foreign and domestic grime, particles, and fouling.

I do not dunk my Sports innards in lube, but rather lightly oil the inner workings. I run it this way for the reason stated above. It has never failed. Now, it isn't run dry by any means, but no more oiled than I'd run a bolt gun.

I trust it, but I do use a cleaning schedule. I am realistic.

If it works, it works.

But for the AR platform, as a rule, more lube is better than less. Far, far more problems result from too little than too much.

Actually, I'm not even sure what realistic problems would arise from 'too much' lube

Example:

http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

 

[meanmrmustard]

If it works, it works.

But for the AR platform, as a rule, more lube is better than less. Far, far more problems result from too little than too much.

Actually, I'm not even sure what realistic problems would arise from 'too much' lube

Example:

http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

Interesting read.

Most, I imagine, of these fellows have never been in a machine shop.

Too much lube, you gather crap. You dispell crap with (you guessed it!) more lube! So, if it works, it works. But, I could see it accelerating wear, if only just a bit. That'd be the only realistic situation (holding fouling, copper particles, dust, dirt, sand to your moving bits between oiling/greasing/etc.) that I could fathom.

As you say, light oiling is working for me between good cleanings thus far. I may be the exception to the rule. I shan't change the regimen.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

I'm the OP, sorry for using the term 'tacticool'. I didn't intend or realize that it would be offensive. Also, I used 'assault' in quotes to hopefully indicate that I fully realize that it's NOT a true assault rifle.

Thanks for all the replies guys. Many interesting points to consider!

For the stated purpose of slow-fire, recreational target shooting at paper targets, what are your thoughts on AR vs a bolt rifle? For an AR type rifle, my preference would be something along the lines of a traditional Colt AR-15 A2 with open sights.

I'm not really interested in competitive shooting because I don't think my vision is good enough to compete well with younger eyeballs and because I think it would ruin the relaxation and stress-free aspect of why I shoot.

Thanks in advance.

 

[allaroundhunter]

For the stated purpose of slow-fire, recreational target shooting at paper targets, what are your thoughts on AR vs a bolt rifle? For an AR type rifle, my preference would be something along the lines of a traditional Colt AR-15 A2 with open sights.

Well, it depends really. For precision target work, I much prefer my bolt guns. But I do like the challenge of an AR with a 20" match barrel and iron sights to see how well I can shoot them. If you want to shoot consistent, sub-MOA groups, then you don't want an AR with iron sights. But if you like the challenge, they are hard to beat! (I do prefer shooting ARs with iron sights to bolt rifles with iron sights, FWIW)

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

The big advantage for me of a bolt gun is brass retrieval. Semi-autos are plenty of fun to shoot but when it comes to picking up my brass I find the levers and bolts more fun!

My GI M-1 carbine is loads of fun to shoot but it scatters brass all over and I lose some.

 

[Eb1]

If you are going to slow fire, and become a hand loader. I would get a bolt gun. I shoot revolvers mainly for paper/plinking/hunting because I don't like to chase down brass. Also, the revolver feels good in my hands.
One thing to consider is that with a bolt you are not limited to 2.260 for OAL because you can single load them. Yes, you can single load the AR15 also, but the magazine in a bolt gun is not limited to 2.260 either. Most are way longer.
My AR15 mags can generally hold a 2.270 OAL. I still try to keep my AR loads down.

Another thing to consider is the barrel on stock .223 rifles are generall 1:12 twist or 1:9 twist. Compared to most AR15's are 1:9, 1:8, or 1:7. With more and more companies making 1:7 twist as the common now days to accommodate the 69 - 80 grain bullets available for High Power shooters shooting on true 600 meter ranges.

It is a toss up. Only you can decide what you want to shoot, and why. The bolt will have better check weld with an scope as the sights will not be 2" high. Although with the A4 models can have a lower scope setup.

If you are shooting targets and hunting in a still sitting setup be sure to get a barrel no less than 20". You will thank me..eh-hmm..yourself for it later. The extra 4" to 8" on the rifle models of the AR15 or bolt gun really help the .223 Remington for longer shots. Without it the BC of some of the bullets just don't make the grade without the velocity that the extra barrel length gives.
Personally I prefer a 20" AR15, but the kid in me wanted a 'tacticool' AR15 this go around. That and I really like the carbine length rifle with a rifle length sight radius that the Mid-Length AR15 has. It looks nice, and it is very accurate. I find that my Mid-Length setup will shoot good to 600 meters, but really its limit is 540 meters for MOA Accuracy with 10 rounds on a consistent basis.

Good luck, and if anyone gives you grief about an AR15 and the 'tacticool' image, you can always do what I do, and PUT A BIRD ON IT!~ (see attachments)

 

[MachIVshooter]

First, unless your AR or AK can shoot full auto, it is not an "assault rifle". Second, the "A" in AR stands for Armalite, the maker not assault. Armalite has sued others that name their rifles AR, that's why Bushmaster doesn't call their rifles ARs. Third, if you go to the range and see the guys with the decked out ARs with lasers, bayonets, vertical grips, etc. most can't shoot worth a flip, just spray and prayers. The A in AK stands for Alexi as in Alexi Kalishnokov, the designer.

As noted above, the "A" in AK stands for "Avtomat", meaning "Automatic rifle"

The "A" in "AR" cannot be separated from the "R"; AR stands for ARmaLite. And no, ArmaLite doesn't own the rights to "AR"; they own the rights to "AR-10", "AR-30, "AR-50", and certain other "AR" designations. Colt owns "AR-15", purchased the rights from ArmaLite, inc. Division of Fairchild Aircraft in 1962. The Current ArmaLite, inc II calls their AR-15 the M-15, as calling it an AR-15 would violate Colt copyrights, just as it would if any other maker used the name. Patents expire; trademark copyrights don't.