Night vision and the effects of firing your handgun

[loplop]

Over the years, I have seen many posts on internet forums relating to the "loss of night vision" after firing a weapon.

It just so happened that when I took my CCW training, we had a dark range portion where we fired with a standard pistol or revolver at a man-sized target in the dark. Then the lights were brought up for us to review our results. We then repeated the test with night sights. After that we shot with a tac light.

I had a few observations:
1. Although I hit the target (I think it was at 15 feet) in the dark without any aids, I wasn't terribly accurate/consistent.
2. Given either night sights or a tac lite I shot nearly as well as in the light.
3. I didn't once lose "night vision" or have a "blinding flash" effect.

We shot a variety of weapons, most fired a Glock 9mm or S&W 38spl. first, then a mix of other 9mm weapons. All using regular FMJ target ammo (American Eagle, IIRC).

#3 is what I'd like to discuss with the group. It is often repeated that firing in the dark will ruin your night vision. People mention this often, such as in this thread about snub load ballistics:
THR snub load thread

Anyone who has shined a taclite in their eyes (ok, yeah I tried it once :banghead: ) knows that yes, night vision CAN be lost. But...

Question: can this actually happen when firing a handgun, resulting from the blast of your own handgun?

Question: does the type of weapon affect this (revolver vs. auto)?

Question: does the caliber have an effect on this phenomenon?

Post #15 in that thread got me thinking... I'd love to see some good discussion on this one. When faced with the choice of choosing carry ammo, some expensive brands use flash-suppressed powder. While I don't think this would ever be a negative... Is it necessary to retain night vision?

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

Good discussion, loplop

Question: can this actually happen when firing a handgun, resulting from the blast of your own handgun?

I find it hard to see happening from a handgun, night blindness is caused by a sudden overexposure of the pupil to significantly intense light levels compared to the level of ambient light, and if you are looking at your target and not the end of the handgun then your pupil is focused elsewhere than the origination of the flash. That being said it may be possible if using a rifle with a larger round (like 7.62x39 or similar) without a flash hider, I have seen flashes in the dark from rifles that extended far from the muzzle.

Question: does the type of weapon affect this (revolver vs. auto)?

I highly doubt that the type of gun involved would make any difference whatsoever, unless you were using a compensated pistol, but even then the flash should be directed to the sides of the barrel. Unless you focus on one of the ports I doubt that even a compensated handgun would cause night blindness

Question: does the caliber have an effect on this phenomenon?

Logic would dictate that the more powder in the round the more of a chance to cause the problem, but again I doubt that the exhaust would be directed directly up anyway, and the flash going directly in front of your eyes is the only way to induce night blindness.

That being said, I doubt that loosing your night vision after the first shot would have a negligible effect if facing only one opponent, however never been in that situation, so can't really speculate with any authority on the matter.

 

[loplop]

Thanks for the thoughts!

I'm quite surprised no one else has commented... There have to be a few folks who have tried "in the dark" shooting.

 

[Biker]

I've trained this way and even with the 2" ported barrel on my 450 I haven't experienced any blinding muzzle flash.

Biker

 

[FMJMIKE]

I have fired several weapons in the dark to check out the muzzle flash. I do not plan on using my Saiga .223 at night due to the huge fireball. I will use a 1911 handgun and a M1 Carbine for my house and night time self defense weapons. The muzzle blast and flash is much less than other popular calibers but they are effective rounds in their own right.

 

[Old Fuff]

Muzzle flash is caused by gunpowder burning outside of the barrel, so the two inportant factors are barrel length, and the kind of powder the cartridge is loaded with. As a rule of thumb, the longer the barrel and faster burning powder will result in less flash. Because of their short barrels, snubnosed revolvers are probably the worst offenders, but careful cartridge selection can reduce the effect.

When many people shoot, they tend to blink their eyes, and this may explain why some don't see any or little effect from muzzle flash in low light circumstances. Low light practice is important, and often something that isn't done. Nevertheless you do not want to discover the effect in an actually shooting. By then it's too late.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Additional to what Old Fuff said, ammunition is a factor. A friend I've made at courses is in love with CCI Blazer. He lights up the night with it. After he takes a few shots I can't see more than a foot in front of me.

 

[loplop]

Tim Sundles (Buffalo Bore) made the following comments on the snub thread... It seems as if weapon choice is perhaps the determining factor. I have not yet shot my snub in low light, this is something I will try to do soon.

Loplop,

Sorry I neglected to respond. If you want to learn a bit more about night vision loss due to muzzle flash, take any 2 or 2.5 inch revolver out at night, locate the sights as best you can and pull the trigger. Try this with several types of ammo. You'll find that most ammo will generate a muzzle flash that will seriously impede your vision and reaquiring the sights and the target in a hurry will be very hard to do.

None of this would matter if all criminal human aggression took place only in the light of day, but the fact remains that more criminals are at work in low light. Once you fire, Mr. bad guy wont wait around for your vision to clear up before he ressumes his attack on you or your wife and children. Thus flash supressed powders can be a life saver.

We did a lot of "night" shooting in choosing the powder for our 38 SPL+P ammo. Even the best flash supressed powders will still generate some flash out of 2 inch revolvers, but it becomes a question of degrees and the right flash retarded powder will allow you to see pretty darn good after firing in the dark.

 

[Hawk]

My SIG P239 in 357SIG is a bit "flashy". The only time I've shot it in reduced light was an indoor range that was only "sorta dark".

I'd expect the degree of darkness will complicate the issue. Dark in an urban setting has little in common with the dark in a cavern after the tour guide turns off the lights for 10 minutes - that's dark. One case is more like twilight, the other is so dark a bad guy couldn't find you unless you were carrying a glow-stick.

Given a potfull of variables including barrel length, powder type, caliber, not everybody's night vision being equal, etc., adding "how dark" to the mix leads me to believe there won't be any hard and fast rules apart from observing one's environment.

For me it's a non-issue even with 357SIG. The house has skylights under a street light - drives me nuts. The last time I was in a place dark enough that loss of night vision was an issue, I was dodging bats that I couldn't see.

 

[pax]

I moved this over to Strategies & Tactics, because I think this subject has more to do with tactics than with general firearms interest.

I've done a significant amount of work in low light, and have attended several low-light classes. Have I mentioned yet today that I really love lasers for working in the dark? I can pointshoot with the best of them, and night sights are great, but lasers rule.

Muzzle flash ...

My observation about muzzle flash is that (except for porting) it usually isn't so much the gun as the ammunition being used in that gun that makes for a bright muzzle flash. Hotter rounds, especially handloaded hot rounds, tend to be brighter than standard rounds, sometimes a lot brighter. I think that's because the more powder there is, or the slower-burning it is, the more likely it is that some powder will exit the end of the barrel while still burning.

Flash doesn't usually affect me much, but it can have an effect. I have experienced it from time to time. The more dark-adapted my eyes are (the longer I've been in the dark without shooting), the more likely it is that my eyes will be significantly affected by the flash.

Some folks, especially older folks, have eyes that adapt to the dark more slowly. These folks are also more prone to be adversely affected by the muzzle flash.

I would not choose my firearm based solely on muzzle flash. But I would avoid porting on a defense gun for a lot of other reasons. And I would select my home-defense ammunition with an eye toward reducing muzzle flash as much as reasonably possible.

pax

 

[johndoe1027]

so the two inportant factors are barrel length, and the kind of powder the cartridge is loaded with.

I can attest to this even though I have done very little low light shooting. My M&P9c has a pretty serious amount of flash with Remington green box (~3.5" diameter of the flame from the shooter's eye). It's great during the day if appearance counts for anything. When I switch to most JHP's in the same gun, the flash almost disappears completely. The remington's don't have nearly the flash in my 5" when compared to the compact. JMVHO.

 

[ZeSpectre]

S&W 66 w/4" barrel (not ported).
110gr .357 Magnum "Treasury Loads".
Created a basketball sized flash and left a few purple spots dancing in my eyes when fired under near dark conditions. It's the only time I've had that effect from the muzzle flash of a gun that I'm shooting.

I really expected a similar effect from a CZ-52 (7.62 Tokarev) but it seems like the flash from the CZ projects out vs a big sheet so it didn't have anywhere near the same effect.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Using my Russian Gen. 1 goggles and firing my PX4 doesn't result in any kind of flash blindness or even making the goggles go all sparkly like they do when you expose them to too much light.

To say nothing of trying the feat without the goggles. I find that in most cases the propellant just burns too danged fast to really do that much to your vision. Unless you're throwing rifle rounds out of a four inch barrel, or talking hot loaded ubermagnum rounds like the .454 and .500. And even then the fire looks cool but it's gone damn fast. Same reason you don't loose half your arm hair when you touch off a short barreled .500. I'm sure we've all seen that picture floating around...

 

[BullfrogKen]

Back in January a few colleagues and I went into the Indoor Range at our Club, turned off all the lights, and blocked off any ambient light coming from the cracks in the doors. And, yes, we were the only ones in there for all you safety Nazis out there. Private Club; our rules.

It was darker than anything we'd experience naturally outdoors. It was just a tad above "close your eyes in a dark room and not notice the difference" dark. We could see the outline of the IDPA targets at out to, say, 20 feet by concentrating real hard. Obviously, target identification was ZERO.

We were in there for about 2 hours, firing with night sights, without, etc . . . trying to test and cataloging accuracy, time differences, and such. What we noticed was the initial round's flash DID light up the targets enough to see them and tighten up our sight pictures. And the flash did not "blind" us. It did make it harder to detect that faint sillouette immediately afterwards. But, hell, as I said we were not doing any target indentification, and we all recognized that we'd find ourselves hard pressed as Armed Citizens to find ourselves presented with opportunities when we had to make a shot in darkness that . . . dark. Especially without some kind of light to determine he was armed, and who he was.

The "muzzle flash blindness" wasn't seen that afternoon. Even in darkness so heavy it could almost be felt. Having the ability to operate our handguns by feel - the safeties, mag changes, indexing and knowing where it pointed off of how it felt in our hand - those skills were proven as invaluable in that level of darkness.

We have a regular shoothouse stage at the NTI done in darkness, with a gun foreign to the Pratitioner supplied to him. The walls are painted black; thick black landscape plastic covers the "roof"; it gets pretty dark in there. We've given Practitioners military rifles, short barrel shotguns, all such guns with pretty good muzzle flashes. The flash generally isn't reported as having any effect at all. Most never notice a thing.

 

[entropy]

You have to wait for the bloom to subside....oh, you mean just seeing at night, not NVGs. Never mind. Well, I do know the Mosin Nagants put out a huge fireball at dusk, it's quite a show!

 

[the naked prophet]

I know the green box Remington UMC rounds usually have quite the flash, even in longer barreled guns. Even in early dusk, they'll leave purple spots in your vision. Bad enough to make it tough to see the sights for a second shot.

 

[oldrifleman]

Outstanding!

BullfrogKen,

Outstanding training and practice, Sir. May I enquire as to the caliber, ammo, and weapons used? From experience, I know that there are several ammo types I won't use in my .45acp pistols, as the ammo makers were obviously not interested in low light engagements. As many engagements take place between the hours of dusk to dawn, such inattention to detail is extraordinairly dangerous for the shooter. Additional info can be found in Combat Handgunnery, 4th Edition, by Chuck Taylor. Like Mr. Taylor, I prefer the 230gr. FMJ by Remington for nighttime preparedness. What caliber/ammo/weapons did you find to be best from your experiences?

Thanks for your time and kind consideration.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, first off I'm no sir.


We used 9mm White Box through a 1911 Commander, Glock 19, and an HK Compact. 40 S&W UMC through a Glock 23.

Extraordinarily dangerous to the shooter? I don't know about that. And I stopped taking my advice from gun magazine writers years ago.


Which ones did best? We weren't looking to "rate" fireballs or a load's effects on our night vision. We had other goals in mind. So, I can't say which ones were best. I can recall none did much of anything at all to our night vision. These were all "economy" loads, not high quality, treated for reduced flash type carry ammo.

In truth, the damn night sights were worse on my night vision than anything else. Those bright glowing spots reflected right back into my eyes and made it tough to see past. Most of the guys' shot times with night sights were from 1/4 to 3/4 to a second slower on average, unless they had significant practice with night sights in light that dim.

 

[JLStorm]

In truth, the damn night sights were worse on my night vision than anything else. Those bright glowing spots reflected right back into my eyes and made it tough to see past. Most of the guys' shot times with night sights were from 1/4 to 3/4 to a second slower on average, unless they had significant practice with night sights in light that dim.

Now thats quite interesting. I have never heard that mentioned before, do you think this had to do mostly with the extreme darkness you were shooting in? I have often looked at my night sights on my bedside table in the dark with no ill effects, so it must have been REALLY dark where you were...or maybe its because the rear sights were so close to your face?

Anyway, very interesting observation.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Standard, full length presentation. Yes, it was very dark. As I said, one step above total "I can't see nuthin" darkness. It was simply the observation that those present (5 of us) who had trained significantly on extreme low light level shooting on night sight equipped guns were not adversely effected. Meaning, their shot times, and accuracy were not affected negatively by using guns with night sights. In fact, accuracy and times were exactly the same out to about 15 feet, where night sights began to provide a a benefit to accuracy.

Personal observations were it was like shooting with pinpoints of light shining right into your eyes. They were distracting, and tough to see beyond. They drew the attention of one's eye, and were bright enough in such darkness that anything viewed beyond them, on that same plane of view, were a bit obscured by the contrasting light levels.


Its hard to explain unless you've try it. Again, I remind all that we were practicing in darkness levels that did not permit target identification for threat, or friend/foe. The likely scenario was we had already determined the target was a threat, and either chose not to use our lights, or couldn't because of whatever reason.

 

[loplop]

I had no such problems when shooting night sights in the dark, although my range wasn't as dark as yours, and I could just barely see that target past the sights.

I found night sights to be invaluable in keeping my shots on target. A taclite worked well, too.

I noticed no night vision blindness with flash, either.

Although I didn't try my snub. I will do that next time.

 

[sm]

Old Fuff, pax and BullfrogKen - Great posts.

-I once had "Chuck Yeager" eyes, meaning better vision up close, far aways and extraordinary night vision.
About age 42 I needed something to assist in reading, few years later a "little help" with distance. Few more years, and especially if allergies are acting up, night vision is not what I used to have.

Age and genes. Eye muscles just will not do what they used to as I near age 52.

-Ammunition has always been the concern for me over caliber. I have always been a fan of standard pressure ammunition simply because of reliability, POA/POI, faster follow up shots ( less perceived recoil) and less perceived muzzle flash to me.
Granted, I never got into metallic reloading. I did a lot of shotgun shell reloading and can equate the powders and burning. Muzzle flash happens with shotguns in low light/ dark as well.

My take has been reliable, POA/POI so the gun runs including mags. Shot placement is not going to happen otherwise. So I personally never got caught up in penetration tests, expansion tests or anything.
I admit, I still like LSWC and Hardball for CCW ammunition.

Some of these "new offerings" in ammunition, are downright distracting to me, be it handgun , shotgun or rifle ammunition.
When younger and some of these offerings were coming out, I noticed it, now that my eyes are older, I seem to notice it more.

CCI "Flying Ashtray" back in the old days did not have the "flash" and ran in bone stock 1911s from the factory for instance. I did a lot of low light/ no light shooting with this loading.

-
Remember I have "slapped" the trigger on a shotgun shell or two. I focus on target, not the bead.
Many of my serious shooting guns did not have beads on purpose - shotguns are pointed - not aimed.
Beads on a shotgun will "distract" me. Hi-Vis and and other "sights" on a shotgun - drives me nuts!

Fixed sights such as Model 10 and 1911 is what I grew up with.

White dots, outlines, and then night sights I literally cussed, and loud. I actually penciled in white dots with No. 2 pencil to get one gun I have that came with white dots to quit driving me batty.

Then I fussed , fumed and MADE myself shoot this gun as I was assisting with folks, some older, with eyes not that good and "if I gotta assist, I gotta learn to use the damn dots".

I can shoot this gun with the damn white dots, actually CCW this gun and the dots are white. I have not one problem if the sights gets muddy and the dots are "gone" or some are "gone". Gets back to "not learning with a crutch" - I learned with no sights or factory black or steel.

Glasses.

Now my shooting glasses ride high on the brow, being a shotgunner is why.
I do not have prescription shooting glasses, I use clear lenses.

If I use my glasses with "old fart" [large shooting glasses that fit over my glasses] I use my "Bifocal Weaverish Stance"

I often shoot without my glasses and just my Old Bushnell Aviator style.
I had some nice Zeiss that were stolen.

Here is something I noticed about muzzle flash and glasses - it makes a difference!

I borrowed some 'scripted glasses with a slight bronze tint, the flash was increased'
I borrowed some 'scripted clear lenses ( a bit too strong) and (1) less flash with muzzle fire only (2) too strong a lens and with a bright light being shined at me, it took longer to recover [magnified?]

I shot this "stage" again, total darkness, with only clear safety glasses, and I did better, recovered faster.

Always been one to shoot "worst case" stuff, like losing my glasses and having to shoot without. Or, being awakened in the middle of the night and not having time to put them on.

[WE do replicate lying in bed, with "ambient" lighting one would have in a bedroom and having to grab gun and fire from "sleeping positions".]

I am a fan of low pressure rounds such as .38spl, .44 spl, 45ACP for many reasons, muzzle flash is one.
9mm is another one for me that works well. Kel-Tec P-11, BHP , SW3913, for instance with 115 gr standard, 124 standard works for me better than +p or +p+.

My preferred loading is 124 gr in a standard pressure. My last "low light/ no light" shoot in total darkness was with these loadings using a Kel-Tec P-11.

Blazer 115 grain FMJ was the ammo for the next night, and for me, these work great out of a P-11.

Fiocchi FMJ and JHP are two other rounds that work well for me out of a P-11.

Some of these more expensive loadings, +p and +p+, I personally do not do well with.

In 45ACP, the old Win 185 STHP feeds in any gun I have ever used it in, and muzzle flash was "low" for me, and quicker shot to shot times.

I do not do .40 cal in anything. Just me, my platforms were chosen before this round came out.

I have assisted and watched others use .40 cal, "sharper recoil" is always said by new students.
"Whoa!" is always said for low light/ no light shooting.

Try a pair of yellow or rose lenses in shooting glasses for low light, no light shooting.
Muzzle flash is downright distracting to me.

 

[Claude Clay]

flash

use it to ur advantage....after you shoot at the BG & 'flash his eyes' you move to a different area, even if its just a few steps. You , having flashed him, know better where he is but he has to relocate you.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I fired an HK91 with and without the flash hider on one night, with M80 ball ammunition. The flash hider on this gun is superb - all that was visible with it on was a golf ball-sized 'puff' of orange. And then I unscrewed it and fired...

The last thing that I remember seeing is the front sight, with everything else being a blinding flash of yellows. I thought that my gun exploded and that I was going to be in trouble, the flash was so bright. The lesson I took from that - it is quite possible to be inconvenienced by muzzle flash, with larger guns and shorter barrels. But, you still have your muscle memory, which is how you probably pointed the gun in the first place if you are firing at night. If you see something flash after you fire, fire again, etc. Experience doing in this respect beats an equipment solution.

Edit - my ability to focus on anything was impaired for at least a minute after the shot. The good news was that my ability to see at the periphery was always available (seeing movement) and the '10 degree offset' that you use for seeing things in more detail at night returned soon thereafter. As far as looking at something and focusing - well, use muscle memory to point your gun into the center of the 'circle' in which you cannot see.

 

[106rr]

I have tried several different loads and guns at night. The ammo is a factor and the caliber is a factor. The weapon itself is a smaller factor. If you go to extremes like a snub nose magnum revolver, you will lose night vision.
I have had no loss from 357mag lever guns, 32 acp, 380 acp or 45 acp with any ammo. The flash suppressed loads are great if you shoot +P or a magnum revolver.
The single biggest problem is age. Your recovery time is directly linked to your chronological age, no matter what your physical condition. This is the main reason you cannot hold an infantry MOS after age 36. If your age starts with a 4,5,6, or higher you will take at least 15 minutes to recover your night vision. A red 5 LED flashlight now rides with me. Red light saves your night vision. Target ID is critical for safe effective SD.
The absolute king of night fighting weapons is the M79 Grenade launcher. It's virtually invisible at night. However your local jurisdiction might not allow it.