NIJ armor rateing and shotgun shells

[servantofinari]

This has been bugging me for a while, I can't find anything that talks about rating armor against shotgun shells. I know there's a lot of variables but there must be some basic idea of what they can and can't penetrate. Also if anyone has any idea where I can find info on the energy (or muzzle velocity/weight of shot) of various shotgun shells I would appreciate it.

 

[meytind]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

 

[tkopp]

Any idea on how a sabot would fare? I'd assume a lot like a rifle round, but they're all designed for expansion in hunting and not penetration.

 

[memphisjim]

flachettes will penetrate soft body armor

 

[franconialocal]

Great link above....thank you!!

 

[YoungBrave]

Shotguns ROCK!!!

A rifled cylinder bore semiautomatic or reliable automatic slug gun is the absolute best weapon at ranges under 200 yards. If you are shooting pellets against body armor, the individual pellets will not penetrate it; but the spray effect makes that point moot. And if you´re shooting slugs, they will penetrate just about ANYTHING short of tank armor. You can verify this on the net by searching armored cars and the different kinds of armor available. Armor that can withstand shotgun slugs is rating 5, and it is NEVER actually available on the market. The military has very heavily armored transports that can take many kinds of punishment; but I believe these have been mainly reinforced underneath to withstand booby traps; however, although they can take an AK round on the window, no problem, I doubt they can take a slug through a door or side panel. In fact, I'd be willing to bet they can't.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

 

[Zoogster]

if you´re shooting slugs, they will penetrate just about ANYTHING short of tank armor.

The military has very heavily armored transports

I doubt they can take a slug through a door or side panel. In fact, I'd be willing to bet they can't.

Then you would most certainly have bet wrong.

Shotgun slugs have horrible penetration. Your average foster slug is soft lead, with a very wide diameter, and slow. The projectiles that penetrate armor are hard, pointed or otherwise have a very narrow frontal area to concentrate force, and fast.
They do hit with enough force that pistol rated armor without plates will transfer a lot of energy. Certainly breaking ribs and potentially doing damage to organs within a few inches. But they will not penetrate.
Other slug types still made of lead are only slightly better at penetration of armor, and most will fail even against handgun rated body armor.

Most armored transports were designed to withstand the Soviet/Russian 12.7x108MM round at a minimum. The .50 BMG by comparison is 12.7x99MM and the projectile and energy figures are very similar.
So they are designed to take some fire from at least a .50 BMG. With some designed to withstand cannon fire of much larger rounds.
A shotgun slug is not going to do a thing.


Buckshot penetration per projectile is worse than most handgun rounds. They are rounded, so already have a low ballistic coefficient. They are usually soft lead, and quickly deform, though some are plated.
They have a large diameter but very low energy.
A 53-54 grain projectile like 00 buck, moving at 1200-1300 (minus energy lost in flight, and small round projectiles bleed energy fast) that is .33 in diameter is worse than your typical .380ACP round. At least the .380 has a harder copper jacket. Far worse than your typical 9x19mm, which is not only jacketed so resists deformation better, but is going similar velocity with a projectile that weighs over twice as much, and has a much better sectional density for penetration.

So anything that will stop a 9mm will stop individual buckshot pellets easily.
9mm has a better penetration for shape, uses a harder jacketed coating, and has much better sectional density.



Special sabot slugs using harder metals than lead, or at least hard buttons over the lead round can penetrate better. However a typical sabot is not much better than a low powered rifle, so body armor designed for some rifle protection will defeat those as well.


Specialized flechettes can penetrate, but not your typical tiny ones sold as novelty rounds. A shell firing 2-3 much larger flechettes should do it.
Those used for the Steyr ACR system for example are about the right size.
With velocities well past 1600FPS from the shotgun they should penetrate any handgun rated armor.
Sharpen both the tips and the fins for reduced resistance and increased penetration.

(ignore the ballistic info, that is the ACR info)

 

[Zoogster]

So shotguns deliver a lot of soft lead at low velocity. Armor is best defeated by hard projectiles at high velocity.
So a shotgun without very exotic rounds will do a very poor job of penetrating any body armor.

Why do you think most nations which have banned or limited guns still let those serfs who jump through the right hoops have shotguns?
Because they pose very little threat to formally trained troops in body armor, and cannot be concealed like a handgun. So they can hunt thier game without ever posing any risk to government forces.

 

[Tim the student]

YoungBrave, welcome to THR.

I couldn't disagree more with your post however. I don't even really know where to start.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

flachettes will penetrate soft body armor

Everyone may wish to rethink the effectiveness of flechette penetration, especially in regards to shotguns after reading this Georgia Packing.Org link.



Here is a picture of the 'penetration' from either 7 or 15 yards. EDIT: it was from 7 yards away, in other words from as far away as being on one side of a good sized living room.



Here is another... Again, 7-yards or 21-feet.


These are not pictures of the same flechette,they are pictures of the Only Two flechettes that that had any demonstrable penetration At All. The first flechette penetrated 1/4 inch or so and the second up to the fins.





Everyone will note that there is penetration, but it stops at the fins of the flechette. How many people here think they will be 'out of the fight' after being stabbed by an ice pick that penetrates all of 1.5 inches?

Please note that these pictures are the Only flechettes that had any penetration. There are 19-20 flechettes per 12 gauge shell. Them's not good hittin' odds, people. If you think bird shot is bad, wait'll you try that novelty flechette stuff that's supposed to "put a man down 100 yards away".
Your 'hit probability' is also seriously degraded by the use of flechette ammunition: at 21 feet the flechettes spread into about a 6-8 foot pattern.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Another thing to point out about the silly flechette gimmick rounds is that to fit 19-20 into a 12 gauge shell half of them are packed into the shell backwards, meaning half the flechettes come out of the barrel backwards....Flechettes are garbage IMO

 

[Zoogster]

Everyone may wish to rethink the effectiveness of flechette penetration, especially in regards to shotguns after reading this Georgia Packing.Org link.

Another thing to point out about the silly flechette gimmick rounds is that to fit 19-20 into a 12 gauge shell half of them are packed into the shell backwards, meaning half the flechettes come out of the barrel backwards....Flechettes are garbage IMO

There are 19-20 flechettes per 12 gauge shell.

Not at all, that is like saying everyone should rethink bullets because of a specific one.
Using a .22 short to hunt a deer and then declaring all bullets are garbage because it performed poorly would be about the same logic.
Those are the 8 grain flechettes.

Flechettes are not immune to physics and need a decent sectional density to perform. Thier shape already gives them a much higher sectional density than another projectile type, but they still must be of acceptable mass. If the mass of the object is far too low, then the object will perform poorly.
Just like using a bullet that is too light for the job would.


Most flechettes that are sold are the novelty type, which are the size of small nails, and steel. Fewer flechettes, but larger flechettes has a totally different result.

Just like using buckshot and birdshot has a different result when you shoot targets even though both are spherical lead shot. Using tiny flechettes, the birdshot of flechettes if you will, is going to perform like the steel birdshot of flechettes. Using small steel birdshot would have horrible performance on targets that buckshot does fine with.
Just as using tiny flechettes which are already made of steel and hence lighter, results in poor performance against targets that larger flechettes would penetrate fine.


If you have "19-20 flechettes per 12 gauge shell" then you are using far too small of flechettes. Those are the 8 grain flechettes You should have much larger ones and less than 5 should fit in a shell. Much bigger flechettes with much better sectional density.
Which is exactly why I used the ACR flechettes as an example, because they are an example of flechettes not the tiny flechettes.

Would you use 8 grain birdshot, smaller than BB size and expect buckshot results? Why would you use 8 grain flechettes and expect them? Try some 30+ grain flechettes. You will find they penetrate a bit further than to the fins. If you want really good results try some 50+ grain flechettes, sharpened at the tip and the leading edge of the fins.
(How far do you think an 8 grain bullet at the same velocity would have penetrated? Not nearly as far as the 8 grain flechette.)

 

[Justin]

Shotguns ROCK!! rifled cylinder bore semiautomatic or reliable automatic slug gun is the absolute best weapon a nges under 200 yards. If you are shooting pellets against body armor, the individual pellets wil ot penetrate it; but the spray effect makes that point moot. And if you´re shooting slugs, they ill penetrate just about ANYTHING short of tank armor. You can verify this on the net by earching armored cars and the different kinds of armor available. Armor that can withstand hotgun slugs is rating 5, and it is NEVER actually available on the market. The military has ver eavily armored transports that can take many kinds of punishment; but I believe these have een mainly reinforced underneath to withstand booby traps; however, although they can take an K round on the window, no problem...

Uh, wow. You really believe this? In my experiences with both shooting and RO'ing matches, making shots with slugs out to 100 yards is much harder than a comparale shot with a rifle. Also, shotgun slugs are of such low velocity that you can safely shoot an AR500 armor plate target as close as 40 yards with no serious wear on the plate. Rifle targets on the other hand, must be at least 150 yards away from the shooting position to avoid beating up the steel prematurely. I'm sorry, but you're vastly overstating the effectiveness of shotgun slugs. What you are claiming bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to the experiences of people who regularly shoot at plate steel targets with shotgun slugs.

 

[YoungBrave]

OK, maybe the military uses a different kind of hardened steel than commercial armored car vendors. That is conceivable, though I wouldn't bet on it. As far as commercial armored cars, or even the kinds of cars that are used for executive protection (and that is what I what writing about, because that is what I know, they definitely won´t take a slug). For a tank, or one of the heavily amored troop transports that the army has been building the best thing to do is a booby trap; but use three artillery shells, instead of one or two. This has worked out wonderfully for Al Quaida. Just go to any VA hospital and see if I'm BS'ing. People don't die; but they go blind just from the concussion.

As far as the commercial armor for vehicles, level 4 is guaranteed against armor piercing .30-06. ; but not against slugs, and level five body armor is the same, though the many wars of the world will tell you that that is mooted by the spray effect of a shotgun loaded with shells. It doesn'nt matter if your body armor protects you if you get shot in the face or in your femural artery (somewhere in your hip). We can agree to disagree, though I think I'm sending out important info to our boys in Iraq, and Afghanistan...

Oh, and about making shots over 100 yards with a slug gun, are you using a scope? I highly recommend it. You have to choose one carefully because of the high recoil; but it works.

Your good friend,

Milton

 

[REAPER4206969]

 

[tkopp]

Well, he is young and brave. So there is truth in advertising at least.

 

[armoredman]

YoungBrave, I did armored trucking for three different outfits, (hence, the name), for several years. For a truck made in the early 80s, you might be right. Trucks on the road today are level 5, usually composite armor, (not just sheet steel), and your shotgun slug will not penetrate. Glass is not glass anymore, but poly transparent armor, and your slug will not penetrate. As pointed out, slugs tend to be soft lead, and "splash" against hardened targets/ Even the ones with the gimmick "armor penetrating button" in the slug will not work against a civilian armored truck. Sorry.

 

[Tim the student]

Youngbrave, I continue to not know where to start.