Dave Sample
member
Took some pictures so you can see some "Clews." This is The Dominic Barrel
Figure 1.
Figure 2.
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Figure 1.
Figure 2.
Figure 3.
Figure 4.
Norinco Barrel
- Thread starter Dave Sample
- Start date
- Status
Dave Sample
member
let us continue the "Clews"
Figure 5.
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Figure 7.
Figure 8.
Figure 5.
Figure 6.
Figure 7.
Figure 8.
Dave Sample
member
WE are almost done with the "Clews"
Figure 9.
Figure 10.
Figure 11.
Figure 12
Figure 9.
Figure 10.
Figure 11.
Figure 12
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Clews
Git'r'done, Cap'n!
Question:
That bushing mark on the bottom or the top?
Git'r'done, Cap'n!
Question:
That bushing mark on the bottom or the top?
Dave Sample
member
The top. There is no mark on the bottom. If the bushing were fitted right, it would be all the way around. The Clew? Drop in bushing not so good.
JeffC
Member
Wow....had to backtrack to see where this story originated. Those uppers are beat.
Mill file to the rescue!!!
Mill file to the rescue!!!
Dave Sample
member
You make more sense than most, BigG. You are getting good at this "clew" Stuff!
Well, as I am the "proud" owner of the barrel that is the subject of this thread, I feel that I should post a reply.
- I want to thank Dave for volunteering his services and expertise for this project. And I want to commend him on him in photography skills. I can't get my pictures to turn out nearly as good.
- I also want to explain to everyone, just in case that this isn't obvious, that I plead ignorance. I'm not stupid, but I just don't have the indepth knowledge of or experience with firearms that some of you have. The scary thing is that while I realize that I know so little, I know far more than many people that I know personally who own multiple firearms.
- I can attest that the bushing mark didn't appear until after I dropped in the ed brown bushing (which was suggested by and "ok'd" by the local "gunsmith) and fired 200rds through the gun. Again, this was the same gunsmith that suggested that I not worry about the wear to the top lugs.
- I have come to the conclusion that the local "gunsmith" that suggested the bushing is in fact not only ignorant, but also stupid, since he should know better than to have made this suggestion. Small rant here: You would not believe how arrogant this man is. I've had some misgivings when dealing with him in the past, but this is the last straw. This should come as no surprise considering his reputation, which is either a glowing appraisal from the guys who believe his hype, the so-called hunters who pay his brother to run their dogs and drive their lazy butts around on an atv, or an overwhelmingly negative assessment from the semi-knowledgeable pistol owner/operators who have been burned by him. And to top it off, when I was last in the shop I rand into a long time friend of mine and told him that I would happy to install his Heine sights on his Glock 30, clearly implying that I would do so without charge. The "gunsmith" overheard our conversation and made a very rude remark. My Kuhnhausen manuals will be here Monday. I don't plan on darkening the door of his shop again. If you know of any qualified gunsmiths or more specifically, pistolsmiths, who are looking to relocate, please refer them to me. I can tell them all about the great city of Louisville, Kentucky.
- I want to thank Dave for volunteering his services and expertise for this project. And I want to commend him on him in photography skills. I can't get my pictures to turn out nearly as good.
- I also want to explain to everyone, just in case that this isn't obvious, that I plead ignorance. I'm not stupid, but I just don't have the indepth knowledge of or experience with firearms that some of you have. The scary thing is that while I realize that I know so little, I know far more than many people that I know personally who own multiple firearms.
- I can attest that the bushing mark didn't appear until after I dropped in the ed brown bushing (which was suggested by and "ok'd" by the local "gunsmith) and fired 200rds through the gun. Again, this was the same gunsmith that suggested that I not worry about the wear to the top lugs.
- I have come to the conclusion that the local "gunsmith" that suggested the bushing is in fact not only ignorant, but also stupid, since he should know better than to have made this suggestion. Small rant here: You would not believe how arrogant this man is. I've had some misgivings when dealing with him in the past, but this is the last straw. This should come as no surprise considering his reputation, which is either a glowing appraisal from the guys who believe his hype, the so-called hunters who pay his brother to run their dogs and drive their lazy butts around on an atv, or an overwhelmingly negative assessment from the semi-knowledgeable pistol owner/operators who have been burned by him. And to top it off, when I was last in the shop I rand into a long time friend of mine and told him that I would happy to install his Heine sights on his Glock 30, clearly implying that I would do so without charge. The "gunsmith" overheard our conversation and made a very rude remark. My Kuhnhausen manuals will be here Monday. I don't plan on darkening the door of his shop again. If you know of any qualified gunsmiths or more specifically, pistolsmiths, who are looking to relocate, please refer them to me. I can tell them all about the great city of Louisville, Kentucky.
I should add that I am very much looking forward to the explaination of what these clews reveal. I know that some of the damage has already been discussed on the other thread but now that I see Dave's pics, I see suspect areas that I didn't really notice. I guess that's because I don't really know what to look for.
I'd like to roughly paraphrase one of THR's core contributors. I believe that she said, somewhere in another thread that I am too lazy to find right now because I am temporarily on dial-up, *something* to effect that were it not for the availability of the services of a highly qualified pistolsmith, she'd still might be carrying a Glock instead of a Full-size Gov't Model. Well, I've had a Glock 30 holstered in my waistband since Old Fuff was kind enough to knock me upside the head in a PM. Unfortunately Louisville does not have an abundance of pistolsmithing talent (at least none that advertise to the public) but thankfully I do have THR and my own meager skill set and the generosity of other THR members such as Dave Campbell, 1911 Tuner and Old Fuff.
I'd like to roughly paraphrase one of THR's core contributors. I believe that she said, somewhere in another thread that I am too lazy to find right now because I am temporarily on dial-up, *something* to effect that were it not for the availability of the services of a highly qualified pistolsmith, she'd still might be carrying a Glock instead of a Full-size Gov't Model. Well, I've had a Glock 30 holstered in my waistband since Old Fuff was kind enough to knock me upside the head in a PM. Unfortunately Louisville does not have an abundance of pistolsmithing talent (at least none that advertise to the public) but thankfully I do have THR and my own meager skill set and the generosity of other THR members such as Dave Campbell, 1911 Tuner and Old Fuff.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Ouch
Looks like some bad spec issues with that one...Short chamber or short hood.
The extractor is whackin' the barrel face prtty hard too. Never seen a Nork barrel that far outta whack.
How much clearance between the hood and breechface, Cap'n?
Looks like some bad spec issues with that one...Short chamber or short hood.
The extractor is whackin' the barrel face prtty hard too. Never seen a Nork barrel that far outta whack.
How much clearance between the hood and breechface, Cap'n?
Dean Taylor
Member
The barrel needs the standard Patriot COP treatment taught in Professor Dave's online course.
The head space looks fine to my eyes.
If I had this barrel I would keep it and treat it. If I had the Norinco I would keep the barrel, slide and frame and replace everything else fitting things in the Patriot COP fashion. Not hard or expensive if you you have taken Dave's online course like I have.
Lots of fun.
Dean P10
[email protected]
The head space looks fine to my eyes.
If I had this barrel I would keep it and treat it. If I had the Norinco I would keep the barrel, slide and frame and replace everything else fitting things in the Patriot COP fashion. Not hard or expensive if you you have taken Dave's online course like I have.
Lots of fun.
Dean P10
[email protected]
Dave Sample
member
I had thought the pictures were clear enough on the headspace that a blind man could see that the barrel has an excellent chamber and the headspace is as good as it gets. It also has a great crown. The lands and grooves in the barrel look very good also, as does the chamber. The barrel hood is "Kissing" the breechface which is OK. That is where the good news ends.
Here is what I found out about this gun.
The barrel is slighty large in diameter.
The link pin is out too far on one side and, of course gives the apperance of being wallowed out on the other side which it is not. The link pin hole is fine.
The hole in the link it too large and the slide stop pin is too small.
The link is pulling the barrel down very hard into the edge of the barrel bed.
If you look at the link, it is flopping around and marking both sides where is shouldn't. It is slightly narrow.
The barrel is tipping up every time it cycles, hence the wear on the front of the hood and no wear on the back of the hood. the wear pattern should be the same as piston in a cylinder on a car engine. This could be related to the drop in bushing.
It has a bad extractor installed in it with way too much tension as it is hitting the side of the barrel everytime it fires and has battered and scraped the side of the hood. The extractor is also too long or the barrel face is too long, which I can correct. The timing is slightly off as we can see from the battering of the front edges of the upper lugs. I can correct this issue.
The edges of the hood need to be addressed also as they are slightly larger than they need to be and the corners are too sharp.
Please understand that this is supposed to be a leaning experience for all of you and it is not intended to make me look good. I am very good and anyone that knows me knows that. This is what we look for when we do reliablity work and this is what we correct with that work.
Here is what needs to be done to the gun itself. The inside of the slide where it locks up at the top has to be polished and the sides as well.
The barrel bed needs to be checked to see if it is off a little on the sides.
The slide stop needs to be replaced with a .0200 diameter pin.
The firing puin stop needs to be oversized and fitted tight to the slide and a new extractor with a properly shaped hook.
Whether or not these things are done or not depends on the owner. I cannot do the work even if I wanted to because of time pressures here. I was glad to help with the barrel and as soon as Brownells gets the parts here, It will be in the next days mail.
All factory guns are victims of the tolerance factor and this one is really out of whack. Every Norinco I ever saw was just like this one so I envy all you guys that got the really great ones like Tuner has seen and others have owned. Just my luck, huh?
Hope you enjoyed this part of the Norinco barrel thing as much as I have. I will do a flollow up post as we fix it and show you how it looks when it goes back to Dominic. Beware: More pictures coming.
Here is what I found out about this gun.
The barrel is slighty large in diameter.
The link pin is out too far on one side and, of course gives the apperance of being wallowed out on the other side which it is not. The link pin hole is fine.
The hole in the link it too large and the slide stop pin is too small.
The link is pulling the barrel down very hard into the edge of the barrel bed.
If you look at the link, it is flopping around and marking both sides where is shouldn't. It is slightly narrow.
The barrel is tipping up every time it cycles, hence the wear on the front of the hood and no wear on the back of the hood. the wear pattern should be the same as piston in a cylinder on a car engine. This could be related to the drop in bushing.
It has a bad extractor installed in it with way too much tension as it is hitting the side of the barrel everytime it fires and has battered and scraped the side of the hood. The extractor is also too long or the barrel face is too long, which I can correct. The timing is slightly off as we can see from the battering of the front edges of the upper lugs. I can correct this issue.
The edges of the hood need to be addressed also as they are slightly larger than they need to be and the corners are too sharp.
Please understand that this is supposed to be a leaning experience for all of you and it is not intended to make me look good. I am very good and anyone that knows me knows that. This is what we look for when we do reliablity work and this is what we correct with that work.
Here is what needs to be done to the gun itself. The inside of the slide where it locks up at the top has to be polished and the sides as well.
The barrel bed needs to be checked to see if it is off a little on the sides.
The slide stop needs to be replaced with a .0200 diameter pin.
The firing puin stop needs to be oversized and fitted tight to the slide and a new extractor with a properly shaped hook.
Whether or not these things are done or not depends on the owner. I cannot do the work even if I wanted to because of time pressures here. I was glad to help with the barrel and as soon as Brownells gets the parts here, It will be in the next days mail.
All factory guns are victims of the tolerance factor and this one is really out of whack. Every Norinco I ever saw was just like this one so I envy all you guys that got the really great ones like Tuner has seen and others have owned. Just my luck, huh?
Hope you enjoyed this part of the Norinco barrel thing as much as I have. I will do a flollow up post as we fix it and show you how it looks when it goes back to Dominic. Beware: More pictures coming.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Headspace
Good as it gets...Aight Cap'n. I'll take your word for it. Must be the angle on that round, cause it looks a little short from here...but how can ya tell
what the chamber is like with a cartridge instead of Go-NoGo gauges? Most cases run about .890 inch long these days...
Still waitin' for the hood to breechface clearance...Curious to know.
Standin' by...
Good as it gets...Aight Cap'n. I'll take your word for it. Must be the angle on that round, cause it looks a little short from here...but how can ya tell
what the chamber is like with a cartridge instead of Go-NoGo gauges? Most cases run about .890 inch long these days...
Still waitin' for the hood to breechface clearance...Curious to know.
Standin' by...
Dave Sample
member
The head space was checked with a Hydra-Shok, a dummy Brownell's round, and a Generic ball round that was left over from the test fire at the Cooper Range at Gunsite when we test fired the first seven guns built online. It is fine. The round is down about a thou for a fudge factor that I always do to any 45 ACP chamber I ream.
The hood is kissing the slide breechface slightly which is OK. The problem is the barrel face which is too long and is battering. On the extractor side it is really bad. The area we are talking about is where the barrel is hitting the slide on either side of the throat. I can correct that as we have a fudge factor there. This particular barrel is oversize in many areas. The Norincos I built were new in the box and I changed all those problems when I gutted them. I have never seen a Norinco barrel like this one that is badly battered because I changed and adjusted all the parts including the frame and slide. I never had an extractor problem like this, either, in those good old days.
I am hoping the parts arrive today so I can get it back to Dominic. Like you, I was trying to save him some shiopping costs, but I should have had him send the whole gun and I could have taken care of ALL if the problems for him .I simply don't have time with the single actions stacking up around here. I just got two more in this AM for the whole enchilada so it is time to get the shop warmed up and go to work. I do think that the barrel will work just fine, but I have very different opinions about the China Guns than you do. Apologies in advance for the Chronically Offended.
The hood is kissing the slide breechface slightly which is OK. The problem is the barrel face which is too long and is battering. On the extractor side it is really bad. The area we are talking about is where the barrel is hitting the slide on either side of the throat. I can correct that as we have a fudge factor there. This particular barrel is oversize in many areas. The Norincos I built were new in the box and I changed all those problems when I gutted them. I have never seen a Norinco barrel like this one that is badly battered because I changed and adjusted all the parts including the frame and slide. I never had an extractor problem like this, either, in those good old days.
I am hoping the parts arrive today so I can get it back to Dominic. Like you, I was trying to save him some shiopping costs, but I should have had him send the whole gun and I could have taken care of ALL if the problems for him .I simply don't have time with the single actions stacking up around here. I just got two more in this AM for the whole enchilada so it is time to get the shop warmed up and go to work. I do think that the barrel will work just fine, but I have very different opinions about the China Guns than you do. Apologies in advance for the Chronically Offended.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Rough Barrel
I jumped on the Nork bandwagon a little late, and I've only looked at about 60 or so to date...but I ain't NEVAH seen one with all that wrong with it.
Gonna square up the front faces of those lugs and roll the corners are ya?
Curious...How can you tell that the hood is kissin' the slide without the slide?
I jumped on the Nork bandwagon a little late, and I've only looked at about 60 or so to date...but I ain't NEVAH seen one with all that wrong with it.
Gonna square up the front faces of those lugs and roll the corners are ya?
Curious...How can you tell that the hood is kissin' the slide without the slide?
Dean Taylor
Member
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Kiss!
Quote:
Marks on the top rear part of the hood.
______________________
Which could be the result of the slide pushing on the hood when it goes into battery empty...but no indication of positive contact when the slide is in battery. Zero barrel to hood clearance is normally the result of a tightly-fitted match-grade barrel, and rarely seen on even high-end production pistols. There's usually a gap...sometimes a wide gap. Most smiths that I know personally like to leave about .003 inch. Some will fit to zero, but that's too tight for my use. I like about .005 inch...but that's just me.
How do we know that the barrel hood is kissing the breechface when the gun
fires...when it really means something...unless we have the slide?
We don't.
Quote:
Marks on the top rear part of the hood.
______________________
Which could be the result of the slide pushing on the hood when it goes into battery empty...but no indication of positive contact when the slide is in battery. Zero barrel to hood clearance is normally the result of a tightly-fitted match-grade barrel, and rarely seen on even high-end production pistols. There's usually a gap...sometimes a wide gap. Most smiths that I know personally like to leave about .003 inch. Some will fit to zero, but that's too tight for my use. I like about .005 inch...but that's just me.
How do we know that the barrel hood is kissing the breechface when the gun
fires...when it really means something...unless we have the slide?
We don't.
Dave Sample
member
You don't know Tuner. I do. If you think that the barrel hood can kiss the breechface when the gun feeds a round and then go forward, that is a very interesting concept , to say the least.
Here is something interesting.
Here is something interesting.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Concept
>>You don't know Tuner. I do. If you think that the barrel hood can kiss the breechface when the gun feeds a round and then go forward, that is a very interesting concept <<
That ain't what I said...I said that the breechface will hit the hood when the gun is put into battery EMPTY...and could have caused the evidence of contact. No way of knowing how many times the gun has been dry-cycled.
All of which has nothing to do with whether there is clearance or a tight fit when the gun is fired. There can be contact, but still have a condition of clearance between hood and slide. The slide always "kisses" the hood when it finally goes to battery...but it doesn't mean that the hood to slide fit is good. Put it into battery and slide feeler gauges into the gap. The one that won't let the barrel into the slide is about .001 inch aobve the working clearance.
>>You don't know Tuner. I do. If you think that the barrel hood can kiss the breechface when the gun feeds a round and then go forward, that is a very interesting concept <<
That ain't what I said...I said that the breechface will hit the hood when the gun is put into battery EMPTY...and could have caused the evidence of contact. No way of knowing how many times the gun has been dry-cycled.
All of which has nothing to do with whether there is clearance or a tight fit when the gun is fired. There can be contact, but still have a condition of clearance between hood and slide. The slide always "kisses" the hood when it finally goes to battery...but it doesn't mean that the hood to slide fit is good. Put it into battery and slide feeler gauges into the gap. The one that won't let the barrel into the slide is about .001 inch aobve the working clearance.
Dave Sample said:
Ok, I think that I can do all of that. Or at least I can try. I have needle files and a dial caliper. I try to not put anything on the dremel other than a polishing wheel.
Do I need a set of guages? Can anyone recommend a set?
BTW, the extractor was recently replaced on this firearm, and being the dummy that I am, I didn't note whether the wear on the breech face developed before or after the extractor was replaced. 400 rounds were fired after the extractor was replaced. The new extractor is an ed brown hardcore, and the aft end protruded from the extractor tunnel at the back of the slide. When I last had the gun in the shop (at the shop of the "reputable" gunsmith in town) to have the front sight fixed, I asked him to trim the end of the extractor so that it sat flush with the back of the slide. I would have assumed that he would have checked the extractor length and have checked to see if an ovesized fp stop was needed. Maybe I assume too much.
But, as Tuner and Old Fuff have oft suggested, maybe I can cover the sides of the barrel with magic marker and cycle the slide and see if the new extractor is hitting it.
Dave, I can send you the slide if need be. But it sounds like you are pretty busy. Just let me know. Thanks again for everything.
In my effort to find someone within driving distance of Louisville, KY who could work on my 1911 that *might* know what the hay they are doing, I've discovered this outfit in Frankfort:
http://www.geminicustoms.com/
Does anyone know these folk?
Ok, I think that I can do all of that. Or at least I can try. I have needle files and a dial caliper. I try to not put anything on the dremel other than a polishing wheel.
Do I need a set of guages? Can anyone recommend a set?
BTW, the extractor was recently replaced on this firearm, and being the dummy that I am, I didn't note whether the wear on the breech face developed before or after the extractor was replaced.
400 rounds were fired after the extractor was replaced. The new extractor is an ed brown hardcore, and the aft end protruded from the extractor tunnel at the back of the slide. When I last had the gun in the shop (at the shop of the "reputable" gunsmith in town) to have the front sight fixed, I asked him to trim the end of the extractor so that it sat flush with the back of the slide. I would have assumed that he would have checked the extractor length and have checked to see if an ovesized fp stop was needed. Maybe I assume too much. But, as Tuner and Old Fuff have oft suggested, maybe I can cover the sides of the barrel with magic marker and cycle the slide and see if the new extractor is hitting it.
Dave, I can send you the slide if need be. But it sounds like you are pretty busy. Just let me know. Thanks again for everything.
In my effort to find someone within driving distance of Louisville, KY who could work on my 1911 that *might* know what the hay they are doing, I've discovered this outfit in Frankfort:
http://www.geminicustoms.com/
Does anyone know these folk?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Mo' Clews!
dum de dum dum...dum de dum dum DEEEEEE dummmmm
Oh! Sorry guys...Don't mind me. Just hangin' around waitin' 'til the "after"
pix come through so we can get into this headspace thing a little deeper.
dum de dum dum...dum de dum dum DEEEEEE dummmmm
Oh! Sorry guys...Don't mind me. Just hangin' around waitin' 'til the "after"
pix come through so we can get into this headspace thing a little deeper.
J.BELLINO
Member
Dominic.....boy I think we are very fortunate to have some of the best in the country right here in Arizona......hmmmm....how many years before Tuner will be ready to move here????!!!!!!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Arizona!
Arizona...No no. Bad show. Much too hot and dry. My delicate skin would fairly wrinkle on contact with the air in Arizona...and if I couldn't look out my window and see mountains within walkin' distance, I'd go completely 'round the bend. :banghead:
Now, about that headspace thing...
Tick-tock...Tick-tock...
Arizona...No no. Bad show. Much too hot and dry. My delicate skin would fairly wrinkle on contact with the air in Arizona...and if I couldn't look out my window and see mountains within walkin' distance, I'd go completely 'round the bend.
:banghead: Now, about that headspace thing...
Tick-tock...Tick-tock...
- Status
