Norinco Barrel

[1911Tuner]

re: Sorry

No harm, No foul, m'fren...We're tryin' to help enlighten him...not bury him.

Puttin' out the fires...

Tuner

 

[Bill Z]

The students don't headspace the guns, that is done during final grading and prep since the kart barrels need to be chamber checked and reamed for proper lead. There have never been any AD/ND's accociated with the class, and all safety rules, even many Jerry never touched on, are covered in the class.

Does that answer those questions for you? You can e-mail Dave or myself for further information regarding the class, but we are overbooked for the next class already. I don't think this is the proper place for those discussions anyways.

 

[1911Tuner]

Checked

>>The students don't headspace the guns, that is done during final grading and prep since the kart barrels need to be chamber checked and reamed for proper lead.<<
___________________

Howdy Bill!

Thanks for the clarification. My only concern was that some enterprisin' young lad with a handfulla gun show parts would see the thread and the pictures...assume that was all there was to determining correct headspace...
slap his parts gun together...and blow one down the magwell. I've seen that very thing happen. The head blowout caused sympathetic detonation of two rounds in the magazine. Blew the grip panels off the gun and bulged the grip
frame. To top it off, the kid brought the pieces to me...stitches still in his hand...and asked if I could straighten the frame out so he could "rebuild it."
The barrel and slide were okay. A quick-test of the barrel with a loaded round looked good...until I pushed the barrel into the slide. There was nearly a 32nd inch gap between the hood and slide. Barrel throat was good.

Just tryin' to make sure that critical detail is covered when needed.

Cheers!

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, Bill.

If the Karts need to be finish reamed, doesn't that make them Kart Not-So-EZ-Fit barrels?

Thanks for letting me know about the safety rules.

Since he follows all safety rules, and teaches them, why are there pictures in this thread of a live round in a barrel in a vice?

Don't the safety rules that he teaches apply to him?

And, if I understand correctly, he doesn't teach his students how to headspace chambers during the class?
He does it for them?

And finally, how does he headspace the student's weapons?

Does he use Go/No-Go gauges, or does he use live rounds?

So far, it sounds like he uses live rounds. Is this true?

This thread is turning into a valuable source of information, and it's a great way for Dave to show the value of his class.

Thanks again for your answers!

 

[Jammer Six]

Bill, I just went and looked at your site.

Nice site!

I have a couple questions.

Did you learn how to build 1911s from Dave?

Did he teach you how to headspace chambers?

If so, how did he teach you to do it, with gauges or with live rounds?

How do you do it when you are being paid to do it, with gauges or with live rounds?

I see that you're an online instructor. Congratulations!

Do you teach how to headspace 1911s?

If so, what method do you teach, gauges or live rounds?

Thanks again, Bill!

 

[Wichaka]

Jammer;
If the Karts need to be finish reamed, doesn't that make them Kart Not-So-EZ-Fit barrels?

Geez Jammer ya beat me to it.......

Just wandered over here this morning........and what do I find, someone reaming out a Kart barrel.......

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but usually head spacing goes hand in hand with the fitting process..........no? I'm checking on the head spacing as I fit the barrel, not after all the work is done.


Bill Z;
I don't think this is the proper place for those discussions anyways.

This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.

With the small biz I've got, I'm always lookin' for the free ride. Hey folks check out my web site. I'll tall ya all about.......the animals & equipment I use, the type of knots I tie........etc. Heck, I'll even send ya a free horseshoe to throw in yer coffee.........when it stands up, ya know its done!

My appologies for gettin' off subject here.........but there is a point to be made.

Most.......noticed I say MOST........everyone will happily give their opinion & expertise to the matter at hand........on line.........without reservation.
If they're proved wrong, they admit it and move on. No crime in that, they give their .02 from the experience they have or have read..........again no crime.

I ain't got a swelled head, but I think I know a good fair amount about the old slab side, but I've been proved wrong on a few things, found some easier ways of doin' some procedures and I file it in the good directory of the gray matter and look for more. There's always someone out there........I figure.......has a bit of knowledge on the gun that I've not heard of yet.........and I want to find that person. And ya know what........so do a lot of folks on this forum.

So to end my rant.........my soap box speech....... Yes, this is the perfect place to discuss these matters.

Now ya see..........ya got me a bit off subject again, now I'm gonna get reprimanded for it.........

 

[Jammer Six]

This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.

Exactly!

There's a lot of us out here, newbies who don't know how to build 1911's, and we're looking for sources of accurate information, and forums like this are the perfect place for both of us- for you teachers who know what you're doing to find us, and for us to find you.

It's the perfect place to demonstrate what you know, so we can figure out who we should be learning from!

I just wish there were a place like this for my business...

I'd be rich.

 

[Dave Sample]

Let me just say that regardless of how I poke Tuner with sharp sticks, I have great affection for him and he is a lot of fun to play with since I lost my Rubber Ducky in the move to Prescott.
Let me try to clear up some things for you all about what I do and what I teach. The 2005 is booked and may be overbooked by nightfall. We filled it in seven weeks which is a slower pace when we booked it last year in 8 days.
I am not teaching a gunsmith class and I do not want anyone who aspires to be a pistolsmith or a gunsmith. I am a self taught 1911/1873 Pistolsmith and I learned what I know the hard way, by screwing things up and using crap parts and building guns out of junk. I started doing that over 20 years ago when I was packing a Jawbone Commander as a duty weapon and I wanted to be able to fix it myself. Bill told me he didn't like the rails on this one and so I traded it off at some point. I found that an all steel Commander was heavy so there was no advantage to carry it and I went back to the Government model 5" for a duty weapon. It did save my life on several occasions and I almost killed an innocent drunk woman with it one midnite out of Aguilar, CO.
I found Caspian Arms in the early 80's and started building Custom Caspians for various clients. Bill Bidwell taught me how to "Finish The Job" and I built them with care and did everything to them that I could to make them work. They have done just that. I was building high end guns when Armand Swenson, Bill Wilson, Ed Brown, Frank Pachmyer, and others were pinching slides, beating down frame rails, trying long and short links and all the other stuff you had to do tweaking factory guns. They all thought I was a dummy for building mine from scratch, but they aren't laughing anymore. They finally caught on and are not doing that wicked stuff much.
Live rounds for a chamber check? I use them all the time and they are all over my bench.
Ever had an AD? No. I am not stupid and I have dummy round also that I make or buy from Brownells. I use dummys for feeding checks and they are kept in a special place. I have been handed guns with live rounds in the chamber, but I am a gun safety nut and never do anything with a fire arm before I check the condition of the chamber.
I do not teach my students gun safety. If they are that dumb, they don't get in. They are very smart guys and I screen them very carefully. They are treated like resopnsible adults.
I have used Kart Barrels for many years. I know Fred and Conrad and they take good care of me. They are wonderful barrels. Used with high end ammo, they will work just fine. The chambers are very tight and they are as accurate as anything else in the market place today. Having said that, I have to modify them with a Chamber Reamer just like I do ALL NM Barrels. The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. He never has. This means that the lands and grooves start right at the chamber and will not tolerate inferior ammo. I also like to make sure of the headspace although I have never found one that is out of specs. I do not want my students to have to buy a chamber reamer for one barrel so I teach them how it is done, but don't take a chance on them ruining a $180.00 barrel. I do it when I check the guns after they have test fired them. I also chamfer the firing pin hole as we use 45ACP friring pins. My men build a Dave Sample Clone of my Carry On Patrol (COP) model which I have built for many years. They build it the way I do, not the way anyone else does. We do many things to them that you have never dreamed of and when they are done, they are wonderful Custom Guns. We have had no failures yet because I will not tolerate failure. They succeed because they want to do the best they can and I am here for them 24/7 while Class is in session. If the class were not booked and the admission closed, I would not have told you this much because I would be accused of "Trolling". We do not advertise it and the web site is up just to answer the questions without having to do lengthy e mails to each person who is interested. This is sort of a Hobby Deal for all of us.




A Few Good PATRIOTS

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks for the answers, Dave. I appreciate the information, as I'm sure we all do.

Live rounds for a chamber check? I use them all the time and they are all over my bench.

I use dummys for feeding checks and they are kept in a special place.

Just so I'm sure I got that right, you have live ammo at your bench, and you keep the dummy rounds isolated?

That's interesting, and it's good to hear it from an instructor. I'm familiar with the safety rules in construction (I'm a general contractor) and I know how the rules get the corners cut all the time. I know that it happens. It's just rare to hear someone admit it, and I appreciate it.

Does that mean that you don't use the gauges?

Having said that, I have to modify them with a Chamber Reamer just like I do ALL NM Barrels. The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels.

OK, I think I'm starting to understand.

I do not want my students to have to buy a chamber reamer for one barrel so I teach them how it is done, but don't take a chance on them ruining a $180.00 barrel. I do it when I check the guns after they have test fired them.

So they test fire the weapons before you check the chamber?

If they need to be reamed, shouldn't they be reamed before your students test fire them?

And if it's safe and if it's ok to test fire them, why do they need to be reamed?

What am I missing?

If the class were not booked and the admission closed, I would not have told you this much because I would be accused of "Trolling".

Dave, as far as I'm concerned, troll away. I meant what I said, that these forums are great places for everyone to find out exactly what your class teaches and how you teach it, and I wish there were a similar forum for my business.

Believe me, I'd be all over it.

Thanks again for your answers, and I look forward to hearing the answers to my new questions.

 

[Old Fuff]

>> The reasons are simple. Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. <<

I find this to be highly doubtful on anything advertised as a "drop-in" barrel. A chamber that was cut with no leade what-so-ever wouldn't chamber a round with a bullet in it. At the front of the case any bullet will be bore diameter (.452") give or take .0015" If the round did chamber the bullet would be jamed into the rifling, and almost impossible to extract as a loaded round.

Kart surely is not selling his "drop-in" barrels with the expectation that a buyer will have chambering reamers and know how to use them.

 

[hnm201]

Update: the Norinco barrel arrived at my door to my office today just 30 minutes I had to leave. Dave was kind enough to send a new bushing with the barrel. I had time to pull the rest of gun out of the bottom of the safe and assemble. When I assemble the gun with the new bushing that Dave supplied, the barrel will not unlock and allow the gun to come out of battery. However, when I assemble with either the ed brown bushing or the stock norinco bushing, the gun will cycle and lock up appears to be tight. I measured the pin of the CMC slide stop and it measures .2". I didn't have time to take pics or do any futher examination but I did try swapping all of the bushings out three diffferent times, and with Dave's bushing installed the slide will not move out of battery.

I should have time to tinker with it more tomorrow.

 

[Bill Z]

Fuff,
Fred does not sell drop in barrels, don't let the term 'E-Z-Fit' fool you, there is quite a bit of work still involved, but you are working from the top down instead of up so to speak. Drop me your P.O Box or snail mail and I'll send you a copy of his instructions, .............all 13 pages of them. Actually, there are several of those pages dedicated to the theory behind it. He advertises in fitting one in a hour, I don't buy it though, not to the tolerances we expect to get the results we get.
As far as the leade, any match barrel will not have as much leade as a 'standard' barell, that's why bullseye shooters normally roll their own to tune the round to the firearm. Fred wouldn't sell anything that is not safe to shoot once it is installed correctly, and the pistols won't pass the safety/function checks if it is not fitted properly. The variables are going to be the fit and the ammo, the accuracy of the barrel is not a variable. The 'proper' leade is done to insure that different ammo will function reliably as this is the first priority in any carry gun.

Now, another twist that takes place is the Caspian part. This is a new, unfitted slide we start with. Extensive work needs to be done to get the parts up to the level we expect, those parts are also not drop in. It's quite a bit different than beginning with a working, or not quite working, factory/production guns where the parts are made to different tolerances and are oversized/undersized opposite from the parts we use. 'Factory' parts are normally speced to be line assembled, not hand fitted. We hand fit everything, so there are modifications in the lesson's that have to be made to accomodate the parts.

Jammer,
I would personally and highly reccomend you purchase the go and no go guages for every caliber you shoot/build, I would consider them a wise investment for yo. You can never have too many tools or toys.

Bill Zollo

 

[1911Tuner]

Bushed!

Dominic said:

>> but I did try swapping all of the bushings out three diffferent times, and with Dave's bushing installed the slide will not move out of battery<<

Whoops!

In law enforcement circles...that's known as a "clew."

 

[hnm201]

...known as a "clew"

 

[Jammer Six]

Thanks, Bill, I appreciate the answer.

Do you check chambers with live ammo?

Is the hand fitting of the slide to the frame that you guys do more accurate than Caspian's fitting service?

From the posts that have been made, do you have any idea what's wrong with Dominic's/Dave's new bushing?

What would cause the barrel to lock into battery and not unlock?

I appreciate all the answers! Thanks!

 

[1911Tuner]

Clews

Dominic seems confused.

"Clew" Clue. As in...A clue that is used to solve the mystery of why your barrel won't unlock with that barrel bushing in place, but it will with others.

What other...clews...await us?

 

[Bill Z]

I have headspace guages and also use 'blank' reloads that I function check with. I have no problem with doing checks with known ammo under the correct conditions.

I personally haven't handeled Caspians fitting so I cannot answer that question. In a custom I build I would not use Gary's services for that though.

If you haven't noticed, I have reserved comments on this thread about the work Dave preformed on the barrel and choose to continue in that manner. It's a professional courtesy we extend to each other in public forums for the most part unless we are involved in a project together.

Now, are you interviewing me for a job you want done? My business contact info is on my web-site and this really isn't the format I choose to do business in.

 

[JeffC]

Dave was right... that bushing must really have some evil mojo

Must be holding the muzzle higher in the slide than either of your other bushings. Some micrometer readings will tell you for sure...

 

[1911Tuner]

High'n'Tight

Jeff said:

Must be holding the muzzle higher in the slide than either of your other bushings. Some micrometer readings will tell you for sure...
________________

Study the picture of the Norinco's muzzle, grasshopper...Compare it with honorable Springfield barrel, and the answer will become clear to you.
Shape of Norinco barrel just behind muzzle, known as honorable clew.

Just as quickly as you can...snatch the bushing from my hand.

 

[Old Fuff]

Bill Z:

I am familiar with both Caspian and Kart products, and my experience might predate yours.

My post regarding the chambers in Kart barrels was prompted by this statement by Dave Sample:

>> Kart does not put a "Leade" in these barrels. He never has. This means that the lands and grooves start right at the chamber and will not tolerate inferior ammo. <<

Now it should be obvious to anyone with any experience that if (as Dave said) "the lands and grooves start right at the chamber --- " a loaded cartridge couldn't be seated in that chamber unless the bullet at the case mouth was around .441 diameter (pilot diameter on a chambering reamer). Obviously by making such a statement he wasn't doing Mr. Kart any favors. I would agree that tight match chambers don't have a place in practical weapons, but that isn't the issue here. I do find it to be commendable that you know that any chamber must have some clearance to accommodate the bullet.

To continue: Presuming that Dave has a set of go/no-go gages it would be nice if he set a good example by using them in his posted illustrations, rather then using a loaded cartridge, which is only a rough indicator of chamber length, and not necessarily headspace.

Headspace in a .45 pistol may be affected by a number of factors, some of which are:

1. The depth of the chamber.

2. The exact location of the locking lugs on the top of the barrel, and they're counterparts in the top of the slide. They position the barrel relative to the slides breech face when the pistol is in battery.

3. The distance from the locking lugs and grooves to the breech face in the slide. If this distance is off the headspace may be too.

Hopefully the "Guru" will take the same advise you gave Jammer ...

 

[JeffC]

Ah, the barrel isn't relieved, so it must be a tight bushing fit. Bushing needs relieved in a most honorable fashion....

Young grasshopper swoops at the bushing in Master Tuner's hand.... Young grasshopper opens hand to find ________ ?

 

[Jammer Six]

I personally haven't handeled Caspians fitting so I cannot answer that question. In a custom I build I would not use Gary's services for that though.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

If you've never handled his fitting, why would you hesitate to use his product?

Now, are you interviewing me for a job you want done? My business contact info is on my web-site and this really isn't the format I choose to do business in.

Sorry, Bill, I meant no offense.

I'm looking for answers, as always.

Interesting sales technique, though.

In your position, I would assume the answer to that question is always "yes".

 

[Bill Z]

I do find it to be commendable that you know that any chamber must have some clearance to accommodate the bullet.

Geeze, don't act so surprised, I thought that was one of the simpler problems to address and correct. Either way, Fred makes no 'Drop-in' barrels like you posted earlier which prompted my post.

Now, as for your experience pre-dating mine, most probably, but I am dealing with current generations of parts that are available now, and in addition to that spec some parts out to custom dimensions. I do personally know that the man I consider the best in the business right now specs his kart barrels out with longer hoods and fatter hoods and pays mucho extra for that. Why? Because all of the dimensions some people like to toss around don't mean squat when you have an individual pistol or parts in hand and have to accomodate the hand you are dealt. We all know about tolerances and tolerance stacking, so sometimes there is no substitute for hand fitting and a skillful hand and eye.

Myself, I commend Dave for trying to help out someone and save them some time and trouble and money. As for me, I would only attempt this with the entire unit in hand, and it would be a business transaction, cut and dry. Now, what I would do, since this barrel is so far out of spec dimension wise, is donate an old takeoff that really has seen no use, however I am concerned about some of the dimensions in the hood area such as the hood legnth from the back of the lug and where the end of the breechface is also compared to this measurement. If the sizes work, I'll ship it out.

Now, to address something I missed earlier

Wichaka said:

This is the perfect place for these discussions. You & Dave can drum up a lot of biz off this thread and forum in general. Give the folks out here a taste of your expertise, what your class does and doesn't do, what it is & isn't.......a resume' perse. A bit of free advertising never hurt anyone.

With the small biz I've got, I'm always lookin' for the free ride. Hey folks check out my web site. I'll tall ya all about.......the animals & equipment I use, the type of knots I tie........etc. Heck, I'll even send ya a free horseshoe to throw in yer coffee.........when it stands up, ya know its done!

The class description is on a website dedicated to that alone. It's how we decided to handle the matter of the class and have been wildly successful by our own standards, which in this case is what counts. We limit the classes now to about 10 people at a time. 10 is plenty as this is nothing either one of us do for food, fuel, or housing, and it allows us to get to know the students, make new friends, and have a great time doing it. If it was a matter of doing it for subsistance, I would whore it around anywhere I could looking for the 'free ride.' Gladly I am not in that position, as a pity people who are, and can decide where and when is the proper place all on my own. Thanks for the publicity, but don't really need it right now. May even have to do a second class this year due to the interest, but we are still in discussions over that.

 

[Jammer Six]

It's how we decided to handle the matter of the class and have been wildly successful by our own standards, which in this case is what counts.

Well, Bill, I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the way it's been going.

There are a number of people who never miss the chance to bring up the class, and Dave's not shy about it.

If that's what you guys agreed, that's great, but so far you appear to be the only person who's attempting to abide by that agreement.

In fact, this forum is where I first heard of the class, and I thought then, and still think now, that it's a perfect place to find out just what can be learned there, and what the real value of the class is.

And for that, I'm grateful, and appreciate all the answers you've given.

Thanks again!

 

[Bill Z]

If you've never handled his fitting, why would you hesitate to use his product?

I consider hand fitting of the frame to the slide to be the best method, not machine fitting. Many of my peers disagree, youhave to choose which method you prefer with your checkbook. I also have customers that ask for a different 'feel' or 'fit' and accomodate them within reason. As much as I respect the work Caspian does, and admire the quality of their product, and enjoy the personal friendship and coversations I have with Gary, Seth, and crew, when I do have machining work that needs to be done, ie... sight cuts, flat tops, etc, I commission one of the best machinists/smiths in the country to complete those tasks on a 'per gun' basis as I have no interest in lowering my standards to a production basis and I don't expect my customers too. I want them to challenge me and my talents, not settle for O.K. or acceptable.