Norinco Barrel

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Tuner....I look out my windows at home and see mountains 360 degrees....VALLEY of the sun..y'all know.
Dave S. is probably looking at snow caps on his mountains right now.
 
Tuner....just wait till ya git jus a lill bit more long n the tooth..ya will be able ta precieate the DRY HEAT.....yawl be able ta put down the dremel and use ya fingers again!
 
Tuner....when you git old and got Arthur Rites ya will be wanten that dremel back....but the joints work great in a dry heat....got to go close up shop fer the day and go home and tend to the live stock..c ya.
 
Arthur

Me and Arthur be all too well aquainted. We have prayer meetin' every mornin' around 0400 hours while we do an imitation of a bowl of Rice Krispies
tryin' to get outta bed. I ain't young as ya think I am... :scrutiny:

Wheredahello's Sample at? He oughta be here by now...

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...
 
When was headspace an issue on this barrel? I think that was the only thing right with it. Ya trying to instigate something? Don't let the pic's fool you, listen to the words.
 
Puttin' out fires around here, getting caught up so I can have some holiday time.

Let me vouch for Dave and the pic's, based on three years experience of putting photo's together for the classroom, they lie like a rug when you don't want them too and tell on you when you don't want them too. They have an uncanny ability to pick out little flaws you overlook with your eyes like you wouldn't believe. I photograph most of my work, especially cosmetic work, as I can get a more critical view of the work, but conversely, when I am taking photo's for the class, especially when I need to do something for a student that has hit a dead end and needs some clarification, I seem to have trouble getting the picture to show what I want it too. If Dave says the headspace is right, I'm sure it is, there's no reason for him to say it is when it's not. If your basing your pacing over the pictures, save the wear on the rug, if not, clue me in as to why your tracking up your living room.


BTW, give me a ring LATE Friday or over the week-end, I've some some parts we need to talk about that we PM'd about before.
 
Bill,

I am glad that someone (other than me) said this about photos. I think that Dave's photos look remarkably good in that he is not ichiro-san and he's able to post pics that have very little shadow or glare and even contrast. However, when I've read some of the remarks on the photos I can't help think "are they looking at the same pic that I am?" Of course, I am in a room with three computer displays (four if you count the multi-head console on the server rack) : one large LCD with excellent color depth, one crappy CRT and one nice CRT. Often the same picture will look quite different on all three displays.

BTW, I did post something about the barrel's headspace. But I don't know what the heck I am talking about, and that's a fact.
 
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I have a question..... is this Norinco barrel too soft? Is it possible that played a roll in the lugs being beat? The reason I ask this is because of the "dent" from the extractor.
 
Well, I am back. I tried to get on yesterday and couldn't so I assumed that Tuner had kicked me off. I know how much I irrigate him and well, you know.............. anyhow I got an e mail from a pal who said that he kicked everyone off but maybe he would let me back on someday. Thanks Tuner!
Dominic's Norinco barrel is on the truck and on it's way home. I have done all I can do to it and I am honest so I will say it wasn't a 15 minute job as predicted. That triple chrome is harder than the Hinges of Hades and I had to do most of the work with various stones. I donated $150.00 worth of time in an ice cold shop so I could be your hero. I had my little heater on but it was cold!
Here is what we found out.
Norinco barrel at the wide place was .699
GI WWI barrel at the same place .685
Systima barrel at the same place .688
Kart NM EZ fit at the same place .693
So my guess at first was correct in that the barrel is simply too big around.
The end of the barrel was .584, the Kart was .478. That is where the bushing rides. As luck would have it, I had a take out SS Barrel Bushing that was full of Evil Mojo, but I blessed it and fitted it to the ID of the Norinco barrel, and the OD of Deans old WWI 1911 army gun. It is a good looking bushing and will work fine now.
I cleaned it up and polished the areas where it was bad, did the throat, and did a chamber check notch that Dominic liked, and got rid of the peening on the top lugs so that it should work better. The lock up was right on the money at .052 and the upper lugs were .062 deep which is good. I installed the Wilson Number Three link and the .156 link pin and staked it in just in case, cleaned up the lower lugs in every area and called it good.
Relative to the headspace, I stated in a previous post that it was down about .0001 and that means that a round would not prevent the hood from kissing the breechface. It is a prudent measure , because contrary to what some may believe, 45 ACP cases tend to grow in length on rare instances and they are not all exactly the right length. If I would have re chambered this one it would have been exactly as I found it.
The conclusion? It may very well have been for nothing. This barrel is bigger than most I have seen and we may have wasted some time and postage here. One the other hand , we can shoot it for a while and let Dominic make a 1/2 inch sanding stick and sand the areas inside the slide where there are the tell tale white marks and it could last forever. I will let him take some pictures of it as I just was too cold to mess with the camera and it really just looked like any other barrel when I got done with it. I know it's better now that it was and was glad to help on this one.
 
I have a question..... is this Norinco barrel too soft? Is it possible that played a roll in the lugs being beat? The reason I ask this is because of the "dent" from the extractor.

I can tell you that the the barrel steel is softer that the slide or the extractor. I say this because neither the slide lug interface or the extractor shows sign of wear (except the white skid marks that Dave describes, on the lug interface). Or maybe I am wrong to say this. I am confused. When the barrel arrives, I'll alot an hour to sit down and reread everything on this and the other norinco threads and also read my Colt Shop Manual.

Thanks Dave!
 
Study

Howdy Dominic,

Here's hopin' that your barrel is squared away and ready to rock. Since you
seem to be a serious student of the design, I'd suggest that you obtain both
Kuhnhausen Shop Manuals and put on a pot of coffee. I got the books last year, and they're excellent...even though Mr. Kuhnhausen is a little tricky to follow sometimes. Go back over the "DO WHAT" parts 3-4 ties, and it'll clear up.

Meanwhile....

Tick-tock...Tick-tock...Time draws nigh.
 
Time's up!

1600 hours. Time to get into this headspace thing.

How can you determine that the headspace is perfect by dropping a factory round into the chamber? Is the case length within spec for a GO or NOGO gauge? Not highly likely.

Headspace gauges are used for checking headspace.
That's why gunsmiths pay big money for'em. It's so that they can check the headspace against a KNOWN standard. They cost big money because they are precisely-made tooling. It's not unusual to pay a hundred dollars for a headspace set...for a single caliber.

How can you determine what the working headspace is without
having the slide? Headspace is measured from the breechface to the chamber shoulder...or to the datum line in a bottleneck rifle chamber. The boltface...or the slide's breechface is necessary to determine the headspace. The chamber shoulder to the face of the hood means exactly zip. That can be adjusted to appear "perfect" when it's not even close to
being within the acceptable and safe headspace range.


When the slide is pushing on the rear of the hood, and the GO gauge is
dead flush with the rear of the hood, and there isn't any discernible back and forth play in the barrel...THAT is ideal...or zero headspace. If the
barrel will move forward in the slide and enable you to slip a .005 feeler gauge between the breechface and the back of the hood, you have
.005 inch of excessive headspace. If you have zero clearance between the slide and hood...but the round itself is .005 short...you STILL have excessive headspace... because the case is shorter than the chamber shoulder to the breechface.

Simply dropping a round into the chamber ain't gonna let anybody determine whether the headspace is "perfect" or not. That's why "Hard-Fit barrels come with overlength hoods and semi-finished chambers...so that the smith can set the hood length to the slide and finish ream the chamber to depth as determined by a minimum GO gauge. When the slide will go to battery on the GO gauge, but not on the NO-GO gauge...headspace is within the acceptable range. It's entirely possible to slip a round into a chamber and have it look as "perfect" as the one pictured here...and still have dangerously excessive headspace.

It's pretty obvious that either the barrel or the slide is out of spec here, and seriously so...and quite possibly both. There's also the matter of the impact surface in the frame being too far forward and causing the damage to the lugs. Given all these "clews"...what are the chances that this gun has anything even approaching "perfect" headspace?

Cheers!
 
I am trying to avoid a post that will be offensive and I am , at the same time ,trying to explain that my guns shoot bullets, not headspace gauges. This is NOT a match barrel and is so far from it that it's like night and day. It is a badly built Norinco barrel and the first one I have seen that was so far out of spec that I was really ashamed of who ever made it on Monday Morning in China Town. It should have never passed inspection and should have been discarded at the factory. I am going to tell you how I know the head space is perfect one more time. The loaded rounds sit in the chamber exactly like it would if I reamed the chamber with a reamer. The round is about .0001 low and that is a "Fudge Factor" to allow any brass he shoots to chamber and fire safely. The barrel hood was plainly kissing the breechface so I know that the gun will work just fine. The headspace is set at the hood with a reamer on NM barrels that we use, and after 20 years of building and fixing 1911's, I think I know of what I speak. When it chambers a round, it will be very close to the breechface and will shoot just fine and may end up to be a very accurate barrel ,as it wasn't all bad. I have given the owner instructions on how to help the slide work without battering as it was before and we leave it in his hands for now.

74742860.gif

The loaded round test.

74742842.gif

Another view of the loaded round in the chamber. This is the end of this thread for me. After all, Tuner, what do I know compared to you? Do you think for a minute that I do not know what I am talking about? If I don't know something, I say so. I have nothing to prove here and was simply doing a "Pistolsmith Thread "to try to help some other people learn a little bit about how we find out things in 1911's. I am not here to argue over how many Angels are on the head of a pin. I am certainly not going to argue about headspace with you because it's a non-issue with me. We all know that you and O.F. are the resident experts here and I am very comfortable with that image. I am NOT trying to educate either of you. We only try to teach people that don't know anything about 1911's. We three are in very different fields. I can do and I can teach, too. I know all I need to know about 1911's and I do not need any more education in that area, thank you very much. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. My beautiful Fed Ex Jayne the Blond is going to another route and I am broken hearted so I am out of here for now. Maybe I'll see you both at the Shot Show in Lost Wages and we will have a cuppa together.
 
Brownell's parts#:

Clymer Headspace Guages, 45ACP
184-100-450
.45 ACP, GO $30.00
184-100-451
.45 ACP, NO-GO $30.00

Mitutoyo Feeler Guages (26 Leaves)
606-950-252
Inch Feeler Gauge $26.00

Other parts check list:
- needle files
- sand paper, various#
- Both Kuhnhausen Books
- brain
- Internet/THR (Tuner, et al)
- elbow grease
- carbon paper

Other than the parts above, is there anything I need to fit a Kart EZ fit barrel to my gun? Of course, as Tuner points out, the lugs could have been cut incorrectly on my Norinco slide.

Finally, after days of beating the bushes and calling everybodys dad who I ever went hunting with, I came up with a short list of names of fellows who do 1911 work in Louisville. One came kept coming up from multiple sources. I've gotten in touch with him and when the barrel shows back up he and I are going to sit down and measure everything.

The new guy, Joe, is my age, 36. It's nice to talk to someone who isn't talking down to me like I some kind of runny nosed kid tugging on his shirt tail.

Litmus test: Joe has not only heard of Jerry Kuhnhausen, but he's read him. The two other gunsmiths who have open shops here in town have never heard of Kuhnhausen, and the're not big readers.
 
I should add that I'm not convinced at this point that I need a new barrel, but I am just running down my options in this precious slow moment of christmas season.

Dave has sent me instructions. Tuner, don't you think that if it was evident from the markings on the barrel that the hood was smack up against the breech face or could cleanup that Dave did on the bottom lugs change the fitting when the barrel is in my frame? Yes, I know now that it was bad methodology to send just the barrel to anyone, and that the whole gun should have been sent but Dave was so kind to offer his assistance that I didn't want to impose upon him more than I had too.

In the interest of a second opinion and furthering my education, I'm seeking out another local opinion, per post above. This time however I will be armed with better understanding of how the pistol works. My conversation with Joe on the phone was very promising in that I believe that he'll be much easier to work with than the two other local yahoos that I've bothered with in the past.
 
All things are possible , Dominic. 36 is 1/2 of 72 and a very good number. My son Bill will be 36 for a few more weeks and then December 19th, he will be 37 and I will no longer be twice as old as him. I am guessing that your slide is fairly close to specs but without seeing it, who knows? Your barrel linked up very tight in the WWI army gun and it is very much within specs. I would try to get the Norinco barrel to work before an EZ fit, but it's your gun. I have taught over 75 people how to fit Kart barrels in 1911's and they have all done it slow and easy and with great success. The first class was a "Hands On" at Yavapai College and we used the only ones available then , the Gunsmith Fit Barrels". Even if you did fit a Kart barrel, without doing the slide to frame fit and all the other things that we do to make these babies nice and tight, you woulld not gain much. It will be interesting to see how it works out. I did cut a bushing for you which could make a difference in the lock up. You should have it tomorrow. Now all we need is some good luck!
 
I'll post a detailed report with pics after I receive the barrel. Of course, I would prefer that this barrel work than try to fit a kart barrel. It may take me a few days, possibly several days, to get the message posted as I have to do a little more homework first and bizness is hoppin during these holidays.
 
Kart EZ-Fit

Kart EZ-Fits are probably the best thing goin' for a hobbyist to obtain nearly a
hard-fit barrel, and it comes with instructions...or so I understand. The fit depends on how close to spec your slide is, along with a few other dimensions in the frame that are related to barrel fit, including the location
of the slidestop crosspin hole. Be careful and go slow. Think three times and cut once.

You can fabricate a rough set of feeler gauges with a sheet of 20-bond typing paper. The paper averages .004-.0045 inch in thickness. This isn't going to be exact, but it will give you a fair idea of your clearances. Search around in your pile of fired, resized brass until you find one that is as near to .898 inch long as you can. That will serve as an expedient GO gauge. Again...not precise, but pretty close in a pinch.

Dave! I appreciate you not goin' ballistic on that point. We try to keep all
discussions, debates and disagreements on a non-personal level here on The High Road...and stick to the facts. My point...My only point was that exact headspace can't be determined by droppin' the odd factory round into a chamber. To insist that it indicates good headspace can lead some readers to believe that their gun is perfectly safe when the reality is 180 degrees removed from that. This is not to say that no gun that passes the test is unsafe...just to point out that it's not definitive...and not to be trusted if there's a serious indication that headspace is questionable. Which brings us to the other thing that we try to do here. We strive tirelessly to present
correct, accurate information, and I work hard at seeing that the technical information written within these portals is just that. Anything less is unacceptable, and possibly negligent. The members and lurkers are here to learn and to share, and they trust we who are experienced in these matters.
We owe it to them to provide accurate information...in detail.

Thank you for your support.

Tuner
 
Dave, do I understand that you don't use go/no-go gauges to set headspace in 1911's?

Do I understand that you didn't use such gauges on this barrel?

Just as a side note, I've read that one of the rules of safety for a pistolsmith is to never allow live rounds at the bench.

The reference for that is Kuhnhausen, Vol. I, page 11, "A Gunsmith's Safety Rules", number 16: "Don't permit live ammunition in the work area."

Therefore, because I don't know, and want to learn, I have three more questions:

Do you teach using live ammunition to headspace 1911's in your online class?

Have you ever had an accidental/negligent discharge in your shop?

Has any of your students ever had such a discharge?
 
Jammer...Good point, but off-topic. Headspace! Headspace! All else is irrevelant to the discussion.

OK, sorry.

I'm trying to get an accurate picture of what he teaches in his class, and how he teaches it.
 
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