Norinco Barrel

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I have answered general questions about the class, don't mind doing that, but prefer things off of forums. The students like to show off their work as we all do, it's certainly not something to be ashamed of. It's one thing to talk about the experience, it's another to talk business. Business is handled in private forms. Where's the line drawn? Where I draw it when it comes to me. ;)
 
Barrel Clew

Jeffhopper say:

Ah, the barrel isn't relieved, so it must be a tight bushing fit. Bushing needs relieved in a most honorable fashion.
__________________

You have nearly reached enlightenment grasshopper, but must insist that you
study most vexing problem further. Simple clearance in bushing not enough to
solve binding issue when honorable barrel tilt at south end. Barrel may require most honorable turning fixture and lathe to provide freedom from restriction so that it may achieve blissful linkdown. Continue to study the clews.

You have not snatched the bushing yet! You must concentrate, young grasshopper. Feel the bushing. BE...the bushing!

Remember that your file is your friend. You must become one with your file.
 
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Bill Z:

I am well aware that the Kart "E-Z-Fit" barrels are not true drop-in's. I used the "drop-in" description because that is how Dave has described them in his past posts, and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too. :neener: :D

Since you haven't told me how I should build guns I will make a point of doing the same with you. However I will never hesitate to discuss and debate technical and historical issues concerning the 1911 pistol ... and I will advance a perspective that not everyone can afford (nor do they need) a custom made pistol, and that those that are produced in factories are not hopelessly inadequate for the purpose they are intended. :eek:

At least until the moderators throw me off ... :(
 
Tunner, Ol' Bud ...

If everyone goes out and gets a file the Ol Fuff might get a heart attack ... :eek: :D
 
from Dave:

Norinco barrel at the wide place was .699
GI WWI barrel at the same place .685
Systima barrel at the same place .688
Kart NM EZ fit at the same place .693
So my guess at first was correct in that the barrel is simply too big around.
The end of the barrel was .584, the Kart was .478. That is where the bushing rides. As luck would have it, I had a take out SS Barrel Bushing that was full of Evil Mojo, but I blessed it and fitted it to the ID of the Norinco barrel, and the OD of Deans old WWI 1911 army gun. It is a good looking bushing and will work fine now.
Click to expand...

from Tuner:

Simple clearance in bushing not enough to
solve binding issue when honorable barrel tilt at south end. Barrel may require most honorable turning fixture and lathe to provide freedom from restriction so that it may achieve blissful linkdown.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if the Dave-bushing and the norinco barrel worked in another gun, but didn't work in my gun, that this may indicate *something* about about my norinco slide and frame.

I realize that the specs of my norinco slide and frame are highly questionable but I have no reliable means of meauring them as I only have a dial caliper. I am going to try to meet Joe, the new-to-me local pistolsmith who specializes in 1911s, today.
 
Files and Coronarys

Mornin' Fuff! Ya get all dug out from under yet?

Your statement:

>>and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too.<<

...illustrates the point that I've been tryin' to make all along.

People come here for knowledge and for answers...and many come for help.
They read and trust us...we Band of Pistolwrenches...and whenever a technical point is discussed, it's important that we not only work to provide good information...we need to provide it in detail, especially if leaving out an important detail could result in damaging an expensive gun or even injury to the shooter. These guys read our posts, and think about it...Some of them
decide: "I can do this!" and proceed to follow our directives. If those directives aren't detailed enough...they can get into trouble in about 3 seconds. Witness the number of butchered throat and ramp jobs that we see...mainly because some young guy read something about the work in a gun rag...and didn't get enough information to do the job correctly. Many times, the barrels are ruined beyond repair...and sometimes the frames as well. This is the kind of thing that we need to keep in mind. Too often, we assume that the reader understands exactly what we're saying...but it just
isn't necessarily so. We strive to work toward this goal so that THR's excellent reputation will be preserved for current and future members. I'll
keep working toward that goal until the staff throws ME off the forum :D

This has turned into a good discussion. As long as we can keep it on the high road, the thread will remain open. If it catches fire...I'll close it.

Cheers all!
 
Dominic:

In the personal message I sent you earlier I anticipated that the Ed. Brown bushing you had in your pistol might be contributing to the problem. As you may remember, I said in part:

“ The standard USGI pistols were fitted with a barrel bushing that had enough clearance between the slide and bushing, and barrel and bushing to allow this tilting process. This of course came at the expense of target pistol accuracy, so ‘smiths began to use fitted “match†bushings that were tightly fitted to both the barrel and slide. An obvious problem here is that under these circumstances the barrel is rigidly held at the muzzle end and can’t tilt. The simple answer was to “step†the barrel, or turn down its diameter about .006†from about 3/8†back of the muzzle to about the same in front of the barrel lugs. The slide moves backwards, but before the barrel has to tilt the bushing reaches the reduced area and has plenty of room to do its thing. A tight bushing combined with a stepped barrel can give you the very best in target accuracy. If a tight bushing is matched with a barrel that isn’t stepped the barrel must literally bend, or “bow,†and it is likely that there will be problems with the barrel dropping down to clear the lugs from the slide.â€

I have no way of knowing what the diameter in your slide is where the bushing fits, and for that matter Dave doesn’t either. Because the barrel is hard chrome plated it isn’t practical to “step it†by turning down the center section forward of the lugs and about 3/8†behind the muzzle.

You can take a piece of ½†wood dowel, wrap it with a strip of 320 grit abrasive paper (available at most hardware or building supply stores) and polish out the hole in the bushing. This is slow work, and should be. A bit crude perhaps but it will work. You can get some idea of what is required by using your calipers to measure the hole in the various bushings you have, as well as the outside diameter of the bushing. I think you may find that the O.D. of the original Chinese bushing is smaller, and this allows to bushing to tilt with the barrel as it goes through its cycle. On a straight (unstepped) barrel the bushing must either be loose enough so that it can tilt, or the hole in it must be large enough to that the barrel can tilt. Does all of this affect accuracy? Sure it does, but the Norinco was intended to be a weapon, not a target pistol.
 
I am well aware that the Kart "E-Z-Fit" barrels are not true drop-in's. I used the "drop-in" description because that is how Dave has described them in his past posts, and I wanted to avoid confusion rather then add to it. If Dave will use the correct terms I will too.
Click to expand...


They are not drop-ins at all. Fred or Conrad have never said that, and I have never seen dave say it. EZ-Fit is really not what I would have called the barrel, but I don't own the company. It is a 'user' fit barrel as no special jigs are needed and it can be fit with the installation kit which is really just a 'fiiting' bushing, file, and feeler guage. So, whoever, where ever, and when ever it was said or associated that the Kart EZ-Fit was 'drop-in' to any extent is misleading. If Dave has said it, I haven't read it and maybe it could be pointed out and corrected. The key to the EZ-Fit is the 'fit' part with an EZ way of doing it compared to having to buy fixtures and cutters that double the price of installation. Oh, and thanks for the consideration on not telling me how to build a gun, it'll keep me from having to tell you how to write an article, I'm sure we are about equally cross qualified as the other. :neener:

Now, to Dominic, my reccomendation would be not to waste a 200.00 barrel on a 200.00 gun that something is out of spec on anyways. The tolerances people like to toss around are broad enough that a 'true' 'drop-in' barrel, or better yet, a take-off will most likely work. The dimensions of your barrel, and the fact that it is triple chrome plated, wouldn't be worth the time and effort and tooling to put on a lathe, it's a ludicrious idea at best. Get me the measurements from the rear lug to the hood of the current barrel, from the hood back to the breechface, and a promise that you will do a few checks before you attempt to shoot it and I have one that will most likely work unless the slide/frame is dubiously out of whack, and then all the measurements in the world wouldn't do any good without the whole gun to work with.
 
Drop-in Fits, Lathes, and other stuff

Have to concur with Bill on the barrel. The Nork is hard-chromed and will require an OD grinder attachment to the lathe to turn it down...and it still may not fly.

In case he doesn't have one that'll work...I might suggest checking Springfield's website...1911 parts listings. They have a one-piece stainless barrel that is listed as drop-in...and they're very good. I looked a a couple
and was so impressed that I ordered one a while back. It fell into a '43 Rand
almost like it was born to it, and there was very little adjustment that had to be done to get the gun on line. The slide and frame even came to within
.003 inch of sitting flush at the rear, and the vertical lock-up gave up zero play at the hood when pushed hard. Of course, this depends on whether there's somethin' screwy with the slide's specs, and how the slidestop pin is located in the frame. As with ANY so-called "Drop-In" part...some adjustment may be necessary.

I think my next barrel is gonna be a Kart EZ-Fit...I wanna see what they're all about, and I've got a little project in the works soon. :cool:

Cheers all!
 
Project? OK, I'll bite. What project is in the works that requires a Kart barrel? Plum nosey minds want to know.
 
Project? What project?

Ohhhh...Nuttin' much. ;) Kelie's "Softball" pistol turned out so well, that I thought about settin' up another one for me on that old 1918 frame that's
been loafin' for the last little while. I need a barrel...and I might as well try an EZ-Fit so I can see what the hoopla's all about. I hear good things...
I have great expectations.(With apologies to Charles Dickens)

Cheers!
 
I would like Old Fuff to find the post where I called an EZ fit Fred Kart Barrel a "Drop In". That would save me from thinking I haver completely lost what liitle is left of my mind.
My Students average 10 hours installing a barrel and bushing that Bill and I can do in an hour. Why? RULE ONE: " Metal is very easy to remove and very hard to put back." It certainly isn't the "Drop In" part that has been mentioned here by various commentators. The book Fred wrote to go with it was written for Les Baer because he was ruining barrel after barrel and Fred had to help him learn how to fit one. The installation maunual is very good and it should be all anyone of average intelligence should be able to follow. We supply his Installation Kit with the barrel for our students so they have the tools to do it right.
Let us return to Dominic's barrel for a minute.
I had a WWI GI 45 that is ready for the bluing tanks at Gunsite here and that was the only 1911 45 that I thought would be close to the Norinco. I installed the Norinco Barrel and the Evil Mojo Bushing and it cycled and locked up in that gun. It did not like the slide dimensions and I left the scratches it made so Dominic would know where to correct his slide dimensions. I e mailed him the exact instructions that Old Fuff gave him and told him how to make a 1/2 inch sanding stick that he could use to correst the slide problem, which is caused by the oversized barrel. I am not surprised that the bushing needs a tweak, because it is very tight in the OD and ID dimensions. I did what I could do and due to the triple chrome barrel being being very hard at the surface and worth $50.00 at the most, I felt that I did all I could to help him.
Let us address the Barrel issues that have been brought up.
The live round/chamber photos were taken on my back deck, not in the shop. They were 20 feet from any weapon around here.
Fred Kart sells more barrels that he can produce on any given day. He would not be suprised to know that I use a chamber reamer to "Finish The Job". Ed Brown would not be suprised that I do that nor would Bill Wilson or Chip McCormick. I do that to every barrel I fit. Note the word FIT. Two of the biggest problems with 1911 semi-automatic pistols are magazines and ammo. I stated earlier that Freds barrels will work forever with QUALITY ammo. Our Online PATRIOTS are built to be tough and reliable. They are Carry On Patrol guns and what a SWAT officer would use in his io her JOB. They have everything you need and nothing you don't need. They have never failed to feed or function with any kind of ammo that I know about.
I like the EZ fit for several reasons, but the main reasons are that you do not have to use a lug cutter to fit them. The hood dimension is very close to our slides and is a matter of .0003-.0005 in reduction so the chambers are OK in most cases. We have had test fire problems BEFORE they came here , but we took care of that with a 10 minute ream job.
When fitting a Gunsmith Fit barrel the process is quite different and you may end up having to move the barrel throat forward and re cut it and then the chamber is too short and has to be adjusted. The barrel is locked up in the slide with a devise that pushes the barrel into lock up as high as it can go. Then we use a lug cutter to ream out the lower lug area while we apply force to the slide so we can line it up with the back of the lower end. After that, there is several more hours of work to get it even where it rides on the lower lugs with the slide stop in place. The bushing has to be fit inside and out and we make sure it's not "Springing" by relieving the inside of the bushin top and bottom so the barrel can tip. The whole job for me is 4-5 hours. We finally fill the whole are with JB Bore compound and cylcle it until it passes "The Gravity Test" which means it will lock and unlock by tilting the gun up and down. Only then are we satisfied with the fit and that 1911 will run forever.
Slide to frame fit is done cold cold with a method I have been using for 20 years. Caspian hates it and does not recommend it. That is not my problem, because when we get through with this fitting proccess, the fit is marvelous. It does not move in any direction but forward and backward. We use files, stones, and big hammers. I use lead hammers that I can renew here with a lead hammer mold. We beat the crap out of them and that is when we show these guns who is thew BOSS! This can take up to 5-10 hours if we do it right. Again, it is a Rule One issue.
Head space is not Rocket Science in 1911 pistols. I have never had a headspace problem in over 20 years in any caliber. I have never used Go/Nogo gauges, but I have nothing against others think they need them. I don't.
I do not flame anyone. Old Fuff and Tuner have made it their life's work to question every thing I say and that does not bother me at all because it creates interesting discussion here in THR forum. This happens on every forum I have ever been on so I am used to it. Neither one of them likes me or has any respect for what I have done in my time in the business and that is fine with me. I do not care what they think or say because I have was involved in a war 50 years ago to insure that Right. I have stood alone for all of my life and have never had to be a people pleaser. I am too old to start now. That is the Curse of being Captain Eagle, Pistolsmith to the Stars!
 
Dave, I cannot imagine you said that, not after writing an 8-10 step lesson for it. I think Fuff may be mistaken as I said in my post. Folks, Dave and I normally stay away from threads one or the other posts him lest we get accused of just backing each other up. Contrary to popular belief we don't speak for each other or agree on everything. If we did, we'd be sick of each other and not be friends. Niether one of us has to have our buddies agree with us, just be men of character.
 
Clearly

Now we're all on the same page...Kudos gentlemen!

Dave...Clear, concise posts is where it's at. That's all we want. Just tryin' to keep the lads outta trouble, and the devil's in the details ya know... :evil:

Bill Z and Fuff...It warms my heart to see ya'll pokin' fun at each other in good spirit and THR fashion. It's nearly the Christmas season, after all. :cool:

And Dave...Me'n Fuff don't question ever'thang ya say...just the questionable stuff. :neener:

Fa-la-la-la-la-laaaa---La-la-la-laaaaaaaa!

Ho Ho Ho!
 
concise posts
Click to expand...

Since we're poking fun at each other, it's funny you say that.

Give me a ring this evening or late tomorrow now, got some parts that I want to measure before I send em to ya, want to make sure they are what you want.
 
Sorry, thought you had it, it's on the web but I'll PM my home number. Got the pre-70 series internals I'm not going to use on that pretty Colt commercial I cut up. Gonna use Ted Y's stuff, have a set for a custom build and I like it, so I'm going to order another set for myself.
 
Well the Old Fuff will have to offer Dave and Bill his most humble apology ... :uhoh:

After making a diligent search he failed to find a post by Dave (or Bill for that matter) which referred to the Kart E-Z fit barrel as a drop-in part. However both of these gentlemen have mentioned in the past that this barrel did require “some fitting.â€

Goes to show that even a great memory can fail some times ... :eek:

Sorry about that. :eek:
 
And Jeffhopper opens his hand an what does he see? a recoil spring plug ?!? :what: D'OH!


An obvious problem here is that under these circumstances the barrel is rigidly held at the muzzle end and can’t tilt. The simple answer was to “step†the barrel, or turn down its diameter about .006†from about 3/8†back of the muzzle to about the same in front of the barrel lugs.
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinkin', turn down the barrel like a Springer... but I have no lathe so I'd relieve the bushing, or better yet mike the bushing and slide and let George at EGW cut me an angle bored bushing ;) .


Because the barrel is hard chrome plated it isn’t practical to “step it†by turning down the center section forward of the lugs and about 3/8†behind the muzzle.
Click to expand...
Never knew a Norinco had a chromed barrel.... mister Klinton made it not possible for me to buy a new Norinco :rolleyes: , and I'm always sceptible of buying used 1911s, you know how people like to experiment on them :uhoh:
 
Snatch the Bushing

Jeffhopper almost achieve enlightenment. Many happy thoughts in head of
master.

Muzzle diameter only part of tilt problem. When barrel not relieved behind large diameter, bottom of barrel stopped by lower part of honorable Eagle bushing as it searches for its revered place in frame. Barrel cannot achieve full tilt, and get into bind as slide pull bushing backward. If bind sufficient to prevent honorable barrel lug from departing recess in slide in timely fashion, many bad things happen. Barrel is not in harmony with slide and slide very unhappy with barrel. The two spirits have unresolved conflict that keep them from happiness.

When barrel relieved behind muzzle, more space is provided before barrel hit
lower part of bushing and harmonious linkdown is restored. Barrel rest
happily in bed while slide return with cartridge so that journey can begin anew. Harmony is possible only when two mated spirits have own space.

Just as quickly as you might, snatch the bushing from the slide and return happy bushing to its rightful place. Eagle bushing must find harmony in Springfield or Colt world so that bad Karma can be averted.
 
AH! So! :D I shall strive harder my master.... Jeffhopper bows and leaves the master to his bidding.

Later, Jeffhopper will diss asmble his 1911s and become one with his bushings ;).
 
Tuner, I look forward to seeing the new "softball." The modifications on the other one showed much about 1911 workings.

Looks like this thread is quickly approaching a group hug.
 
Kum Buy What???

Maybe Master Tuner can lead us in a chorus of "Koom By Ya"
___________________

Naw man! I pick a purty good git-tar, but I sing like a dyin' frawg. :rolleyes:

Bill...I'll allow one group hug as long as there's no kissin.' And I ain't huggin' Sample. I have it on good authority that he bites... :eek:

First report that I get of any hickies and this thread's history!

Anna one, anna tew...
 
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