Ohio Open Carry Incident 3/22/09

[Buck Snort]

Mt Gunny wrote: "You Should have Continued Your Walk! Make shure you are Not Discouraged Buy there Actions."

Let's try "You should have continued your walk! Make sure your not discouraged by their actions".

A pet peeve of mine is when anybody in the gun culture (a positive statement, BTW) can't properly spell commonly used words. We are not a bunch of country bumpkins but sometimes you can't tell by the way we handle the English language.

 

[FFMedic]

Well I have certainly enjoyed reading the numerous responses to this thread. First of all let me say that I posted the same story on 4 fourms so if everything I have to say in this post does not make complete sense, that is why. I’m also posting this same responses in all 4 threads.

It seems the majority of the people “get it” but of course I’m mostly preaching to the choir. Obviously because this was my first time open carrying in “public” and I’m 23 I am not worried or “scared” as the one off duty LEO would imply. I have managed to get by just fine for years with my wits and my Spyderco. The decision to open carry was based more on the fact that it is silly and sad that we were uneasy about exercising a legal right in a lawful manner. It was much more about it being a right than wanting to be armed.

We do plan on obtaining an Ohio CCW and carrying everywhere we can, but till then the only legal way to be armed is to open carry. Sure it may be unusual and you could argue it’s not prudent but that is a piss poor reason to not engage in a lawful activity. There are a lot of places I have been to where the sight of a black man or two men kissing would cause much more alarm than a gun on someone’s hip. In all 3 cases however there is no legit reason to not partake in those activities if that is what floats your boat. A right unexercised is truly a right lost.

There are a few of you that question my motivation and moral character. One very offensive man from Alaska even questioned the size of my penis. It may be hard for you to understand but I am a person that puts my money where my mouth is. If I sit around all day preaching gun rights and such, what kind of person am I if I’m not willing to exercise those rights myself? I understand that 23 is a young age. A lot of people my age are busy being drunk and smoking pot. It’s very difficult to judge a mans character based off of his own testimony but I will tell you that I have never had so much as a parking ticket, I’m an Eagle Scout and I have worked as a career firefighter/EMS provider since the summer I graduated high school. People that know me know that I may have stronger feelings than most in some cases but that I do what I believe to be right. So If you think me OCing to Dairy Queen was to look “hard” or anything along those lines, you would be wrong. I’m aware the analogy pales in comparison but was Rosa Parks trying to be “tough” by sitting in the front of the bus? If I ever make it to Alaska I’d be happy to meet with you and you can make your own assessment, but I’m keeping my pants on thank you.

As far as the legality issue of riding in the cruiser with the loaded guns, yes I was aware of that. As we are all fond of saying “you weren’t there, you can’t say for sure” but it was my best assessment that it would not create any further issues, even though it was illegal. The LEOs even suggested we could walk the rest of the way home concealed! Of course, as it stands we got a ride home, no issues and ended the interaction on a positive note on both sides. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have refused the ride back (politely) and walked on.

Yes we plan to OC again. Probably in some different areas as well. I live in another township and there are plenty of places within walking distance to go to. I’d be dishonest to say I don’t expect further police interaction, but I’m not craving it either. It was a bit unnerving walking into a crowded DQ, not knowing what the reaction would be but as it stands the citizens handled it better than the police. I’d recommend to anyone who is serious about firearms rights try OCing (where and if legal). It’s a lot easier with a friend whom you trust as well. Just remember to be polite and know your rights. Eventually we would like to do a OC community service project like a litter pickup and gain positive media exposure. Anyone with any tips or ideas on other such “goodwill” events please get in touch with me.

Thanks again for all the responses, no matter your opinion.
FFMedic

 

[akodo]

That is exactly my point. When the police have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed, they can stop and frisk a person. I believe that is what happened in this case - someone called, reported what they felt to be a criminal action, and the police (reasonable suspicion aroused) carried out their duties.

I think the crux of the issue is as follows: Is a report of a man with a gun (no more details given)

Is that "reasonable suspicion" of "a crime"

Is the word of someone on the phone enough evidence for police to do anything, or must police using their own eyes, ears, and years of exprience reach a reasonable suspicion on their own?

Either way, it is reasonable suspicion of a criminal act. As carrying open is not criminal, doesn't that mean the whole suspicion is irrelevant?

That is why the other poster brought in 'walking down the street' because it, like open carry, is totally legal. It may not be the best analogy. Maybe a better one would be seeing a guy carry beer from his car to his apartment. Youngish looking dude, could be 18 could be 25. Is there reasonable suspiction that a crime is taking place?

 

[Hush]

Open carry is asking for trouble.

 

[Deanimator]

Open carry is asking for trouble.

So is concealed carry... and owning. Just ask Sarah Brady.

 

[Mainsail]

Is the word of someone on the phone enough evidence for police to do anything, or must police using their own eyes, ears, and years of exprience reach a reasonable suspicion on their own?

That is exactly what happened here in Washington. A woman saw a man (Casad) walking down the street with two rifles wrapped (poorly) in a towel and called the police. The police detained him, discovered he was a felon, and arrested him for being a felon in possession of a firearm. They later found drugs in his backpack. The court threw out all the charges and the appellate court affirmed. Why? Because it is lawful in WA to carry a firearm openly, and it is illegal for a police officer to detain you for lawful activity. Our constitution recognizes the right to bear arms, to write any law forbidding the carry of firearms would be unconstitutional.

Nothing indicates that the manner in which the Defendant was carrying the weapons in any way would give reasonable cause for alarm unless the mere fact of carrying a weapon within the city limits in the open in daylight on a major thoroughfare in and of itself would cause such alarm. The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public. Therefore the Court finds that the officers at the time of the initial contact had no reasonable articulable suspicion that any criminal activity was occurring.

 

[zminer]

That is exactly what happened here in Washington.

I disagree that this is exactly what happened. To quote from the court case, as to what was said on the phone:

"The caller did not express concern for her safety, but she commented that 'it just looked kind of suspicious to me.'"

In this case, the police did not have enough reason to investigate what was going on, because carrying firearms is not illegal, and the woman who called did not report any illegal activity, nor did she feel threatened. Therefore, both the originating court and the appeals court returned the correct verdict - it was a stop which was not warranted by the circumstances. (It kind of sucks that the guy was a felon and shouldn't have had the firearms in the first place, but nevertheless, the decision protects others who are non-felons, so it's still a win.)

Again, we may never know the content of the call in the OP's case. It is my suspicion that someone alleged illegal activity. If we get a copy of the transcript and see otherwise, I will be happy to change my position.

 

[ezenbrowntown]

While we as citizens do have "rights", I believe it is our job to exhibit class when we do. Someone earlier mentioned "dressing accordingly", and I believe that's an excellent point. If the cops do come into play, I don't believe I need to cop an attitude and go into a rant about the 2nd amendment.

It's not against the law for me to sit outside in my yard without my shirt in my boxer shorts, but I wouldn't call it a prudent decision either. We talk frequently on here about things that happen, and chalk up bad decisions to "ammo for the anti's". As a armed citizen, I need to do more than just exercise my right. I need to exercise judgement and proper behavior as well.

 

[ezenbrowntown]

Secondly, I love how we expect cops to discern between the legal carrying folks who we think shouldn't be bothered or dare questions our rights as citizens, and the wanna-be gang banger (as I've seen it called on this forum) and why they don't get him off the streets and directly to jail? All trouble makers aren't wearing baggy pants with their brims tilted on the caps.

While the attitude of some of the officers may not have been the most pleasant, I see a no harm no foul. They checked out a call, which is something I hope cops do when I call. They took precautions to keep themselves safe. If I had to deal with some of the riff-raff cops do on a daily basis, I may not be in the most pleasant mood either.

Did they ask prying questions? Of course, that's what cops do. It's just like "Have you been drinking this evening?" or "Do you mind if I search you're vehicle?" Some people will tell on themselves just by being asked a prodding question.

Also, just because something is our "right" doesn't mean you won't catch flack for it. Someone can legally wear a t-shirt that says "We didn't need those two towers anyway, thanks Bin Laden!" However, that doesn't mean people aren't going to say something, even if you can legally do it. Same with open carry. Just because it is legal, doesn't mean people aren't going to be people. The longer I'm alive, the more people I meet who I wonder how they've made it this far in life!

 

[polekitty]

Open carry?

Here in Kentucky itis legal to open carry. Was, and still is. But...now that we have CCDW law they suggest no open carry. Thought is open carry rather defeats the purpose of having the sidearm in the first place. Bad guy will just play it safe and go ahead and shoot you from a safe distance. It is also legal to have a loaded arm in the "factory installed glove box" of your car with no license required if you are a legal resident of this state. Incidentally, our license is NOT a "gun license"---it is a concealed "deadly weapon" license which includes knife, brass knuckles, black jack, baton, screw driver--whatever suits your fancy.

 

[Commonsense10]

FFMEDIC- You are smarter than you initially appeeared. I'm glad that your incident was positive, unlike many we hear about. Please post when you have other incidents in other areas.

 

[EHCRain10]

What about getting shirts that say "This is legal, ask me about it" in big bold letters on the chest and back for the days when you want to teach others about open carrying? Or would that been seen as trying to incite a panic because it would form of protest.