Ohio Open Carry Incident 3/22/09

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This is all just nonsense. Why fan the flames and only make things worse for the rest of us? Unless you've got the small penis syndrome their isn't any reason why you can't go get your CCW permit. Walk around with these things out in the open and someone that doesn't give a rats ass is just gonna pop you to make an point. Gangbangers going through there initiation phase would probably score major points for offing the two white dudes walking to the Dairy Queen carrying there pea shooters in there cowboy holsters. From your stated ages you have a lot of growing up to do. Next time you want to do this open carry crap go out in the forest where no one has to see you acting like idiots.

In case you didn't notice some fools in our country elected one of the three stooges as president. You guys would make great poster children for a further crack down by Larry, Moe and Curly on our 2nd amendment rights.

http://www.threestooges.com/

Sorry but if this forum is called the High Road someone better take it and put a stop to this nonsense.

There is a time and place for everything. Walking to the Dairy Queen carrying your pistols out in the open on public display is NOT the right time or place for that.

Hiking through the woods or going out in the field hunting would be the correct place to openly carry your firearms.
 
stiffnecked, open carry is as much a right as concealed carry. who are you to tell others what they can/cannot do? Those who open carry have surely thought about the various pros and cons. If they decide to open carry, that is their decision. It is not illegal.

We gun owners are not criminals. It's time we stopped acting like them. (I forget who said that...sorry)
 
Unless you've got the small penis syndrome their isn't any reason why you can't go get your CCW permit.
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If you don't want to carry openly, DON'T. I don't want to and don't, just as not wanting to be a Baptist, a vegetarian, a sports fan or a homosexual, I don't do those things either. I don't waste my time hassling people who do.

Isn't your public fascination with the male member as "transgressive" as open carrying? Aren't you trying to "prove something"?
 
Stiffnecked- you really take away from any intelligent conversation about the topic- your point is understood, but why be a goof about it
 
I believe your rights are just that, YOUR rights. I also believe that excersising them should not come with a price since they are already your's.
That being said, we live in difficult times where most crimes that are comitted with firearms are done so by criminals who should not or are legally prohibited from carrying firearms.There are also quite a few crimes comitted by people who legally possesd the firearm that they comitted the crime with(work-place shottings, etc.)
If the Police were barred from investigating anyone who openly carried, then criminals or those looking to be one would openly carry in the hopes that doing so would signal to Police and anyone else that "They must be legal to carry". Let's remember that the criminal element also learn tactics to further their trade so adapting to what they know would be a natural progression.
Let's not blame the Police from investigating a potential criminal event. It is the job we pay them to do.... prevent crime as well as investigate crime. The latter is more easily identified.
Think about this for a moment....openly carrying a firearm in one place might be run-of-the-mill because of the attitude and acceptance of it's people and politicians. In other places, the same behavior, although legal, might be "out of the ordinary" and raise concern. Concern that translates into possible fear or causes one to report the behavior to those hired to deal with these situations.
Breach of Peace or Disorderly Conduct statutes are somewhat vaque and commonly read, "A person knowingly causing fear and alarm....." Even though it might be legal to do something, it might also not be a good idea to do it just because you can......especially if it is in a place that might cause fear and alarm.
Education is great but usually costs money to accomplish. Oh, and you only educate those who listen to what id being taught. Others who don't listen can still call the Police. Your political leaders might find it easiest to change a law that lets you carry openly to a concealed only law to meet the needs of the general public, reduce the education cost, and to settle lawsuits against the Police for investigating potentially criminal situations that were really not criminal at all.
Carrying concealed is IMO the best method of carry. I also like the option or an open carry when around like-minded people or in areas where it is more common. A neighborhood is not one of those places and never will be.
Remember those words from a previous post......That was then, this is now.

Greg
 
If the Police were barred from investigating anyone who openly carried, then criminals or those looking to be one would openly carry in the hopes that doing so would signal to Police and anyone else that "They must be legal to carry". Let's remember that the criminal element also learn tactics to further their trade so adapting to what they know would be a natural progression.
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There's a world of difference between "investigating" and "harassing".

The incidents where people REALLY get angry are not where a cop politely ASKS somebody about open carrying where it's 100% lawful to do so. They're the ones where the cops felony stop somebody for something that's 100% lawful, or threaten to KILL someone for a 100% lawful activity, or declare that they don't CARE what the law is, or threaten to MAKE UP charges.

I don't open carry. If I did, and a cop POLITELY and BRIEFLY engaged me to see if I was committing a crime, I wouldn't have a problem. If on the other hand, he threatens to KILL me, we're BOTH going to have a problem, and if at all humanly possible, his problem is going to be unemployment and how to support his family without a job.
 
This is all just nonsense. Why fan the flames and only make things worse for the rest of us? Unless you've got the small penis syndrome their isn't any reason why you can't go get your CCW permit. Walk around with these things out in the open and someone that doesn't give a rats ass is just gonna pop you to make an point. Gangbangers going through there initiation phase would probably score major points for offing the two white dudes walking to the Dairy Queen carrying there pea shooters in there cowboy holsters. From your stated ages you have a lot of growing up to do. Next time you want to do this open carry crap go out in the forest where no one has to see you acting like idiots.

In case you didn't notice some fools in our country elected one of the three stooges as president. You guys would make great poster children for a further crack down by Larry, Moe and Curly on our 2nd amendment rights.
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How does legally walking around with a holstered firearm give ammo to anybody anti-RKBA?

It just furthers our cause, proving that law abiding citizens can go about their buisness without their firearm leaping out of it's holster and gunning down innocent children.

Every time a OCer is noticed practicing a legal act that has no negitive ramifications to us as a whole (unless you consider being stopped by the police, negative, even when it doesn;t result in an arrest.), it just educates the public on what our rights are.

Not to mention there are people who cannot legally obtain a CCW permit, but who can legally OC. Are you suggesting they should forsake their natural rights to appease ignorant people?

OC provides easier access to your sidearm, allows a smaller person to carry a full size gun they are more proficient with, and allows people with only one useable arm to draw effectively.

And the whole penis thing is just wierd. I see no difference in OC or CC in terms of ego.

If you don't want to OC then don't, but grow up and keep it High Road.
 
I like the logic windsor311 showed in their above post #85.

Where I live open carry is lawful.
But I somehow don't feel inclinded
to walk around down town, toting my 9 mm in a holster for all to see.
 
Where I live open carry is lawful.
But I somehow don't feel inclinded
to walk around down town, toting my 9 mm in a holster for all to see.
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Then don't. I don't.

I just don't see the point in railing impotently against somebody doing something that's 100% lawful where I live.

Some people can spin intricate webs of justification for their hassling other people, when in truth they just really want everybody to think and act the way they do, and demand obedience to that end.
 
I agree with you Deanimator and would also be very upset
if I found out LE was harassing citizens exercising
that right to open carry.

However, I can completely agree with LE at least stopping someone and asking for ID and what the heck they are up to as well.

This situation seems to have turned out OK.
Now had these guys been locked up,
or detained for an unreasonalbe amount of time,
that's another story
 
i did see that, i was wondering if it (open carry w/o a permit) was still allowed for non-residents.
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Has our educational system fallen so far?

You obey the laws of the state you are in.

I am a Texan. If I want to go visit Vermont, Alaska, or Arizona, I can open carry as soon as I hit the state line. I don't need to be a resident of those states to enjoy their laws.

Vice verse, a Vermonter can't open carry in Texas (still illegal at this time) just because he's a Vermonter and it's legal in Vermont.
 
However, I can completely agree with LE at least stopping someone and asking for ID and what the heck they are up to as well.
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There is part of the rub for some of us. I don't feel people should be routinely stopped while engaging in legal activities. I also don't feel it is any of their business what I am up to, if it is legal. As for ID, they don't have the right. They can ask for a name.
 
However, I can completely agree with LE at least stopping someone and asking for ID and what the heck they are up to as well.
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The problem is when you get into legalities, which are VERY important.

In Ohio, you not only don't have to provide physical ID to police if you're not driving or carrying a concealed firearm, you don't even have to HAVE any outside of those and other specific circumstances. When I exercise in hot weather, I don't carry ANYTHING except my keys. I'm REQUIRED by law to VERBALLY ID myself to the police if asked, and as long as it doesn't take on the character of harassment, I don't mind doing so.

I'm a stickler for EVERYBODY obeying the law. If I'm carrying concealed, I HAVE to have both my CHL AND a second form of ID. If I were to openly carry, I wouldn't need ANY ID, AT ALL. If police stopped me and asked me to VERBALLY ID myself, I would willingly do so. Anything else requires reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime, or probable cause. In Ohio, lawful open carry, absent any indication of a crime is NEITHER RAS nor PC. The police can ASK to talk to you at any time. In order to DETAIN you, they need RAS or PC. Open carry by itself doesn't constitute either.

As I said, I don't open carry, because I don't see any benefit in it TO ME. As long as they obey the law, I don't care if others do it. As long as the police are professional and obey the law, I don't care if they REASONABLY and VOLUNTARILY engage somebody who's open carrying without any indication of criminal activity. If you're engaged in activity indicative of crime, open carrying isn't a bar to being detained under RAS or PC for investigation of that activity.
 
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wyocarp
Please let me put it another way.

I can completely agree with LE at least stopping someone and asking for ID and what the heck they are up to as well.
IF concerned citizens called the police (saying guys are walking around with guns) or it was a situation that is out of the norm for the area
and the cops simply came across this by chance.

I'm not saying I want any cops asking 'what I'm up to', just because I'm crossing the street
or driving through an area.
Check points for instance, I find unconstitutional unless martial law was imposed for some reason.
I think that's very Nazi-ish (sp)...
 
Excellent job. A right not exercised is not a right. You handled the cops perfectly. I have seen videos of liberty activists doing this. They always ask: Am I breaking some law officer? No. Then am I free to go?
 
IF concerned citizens called the police (saying guys are walking around with guns) or it was a situation that is out of the norm for the area
and the cops simply came across this by chance.
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Concerned citizens often don't know the local laws. If a citizen calls the police about someone walking down a sidewalk, should the police go and investigate, or ask for more information so as to ascertain if they are doing anything wrong?

Something out of the norm doesn't call for a police presence. It is out of the norm for people to ride a horse down the street in many towns, but if it isn't illegal, then the police should inform the caller of that and thank them for their concern.

We could do with a lot fewer police if they just took care of criminal activity instead of making everyone a criminal. While talking with an ATF agent last week, she asked about security. I told her that the previous day I noticed that there wasn't any five minute period for an hour that a cop didn't drive by. That is too many cops with nothing to do but burn fuel, add wear to vehicles, and give people a difficult time.
 
Post 85 captures it perfectly- I'm not sure what the problem is. It sounded like a mostly pleasant encounter for a brief time, depite the officer believing the weapon was concealed at one point or another. I did not see where guns were drawn, handcuffs used or COers being locked up in the back of the police car for the "investigation", as we see with many other oc incidents.
 
I'd urge you to file a formal complaint. Every violation of civil rights should be documented. If the state legislature asks your county/city if they've ever stopped someone for exercising their right to carry, don't let them get away with "we have no records of that".

It won't happen to you, but that unlucky guy who gets arrested without cause, or who has his gun seized - he and his lawyer need other citizens to have documented improper behavior.

I'd also recommend that you request a copy of the police report, to check it for factual inaccuracies. For instance - police are allowed to lie and say they got calls, when they didn't. But they aren't allowed to lie in the police report, so it may be an enlightening read.
 
In the explanation of the events, not once did FFMEDIC mention harassment. It sounded like an investigative encounter between the Police and two armed citizens.

Allow me to reitterate my point that when non-criminal behavior and possible criminal behavior can not be distinguished unless somebody (the Police) ask appropriate questions, I believe that lawfull gun-carrying citizen would be fine with the process. That might be the "price" for the right to openly carry a weapon. It's a shame that our society in some areas have price tags on our rights but that is a sign of the times. I can't leave my house or car unlocked anymore..... but I used to.......

If the Police did nothing in this story and drove past, and these two law-abbiding citizens were on their way to shoot the manager of the DQ because they worked there and got fired, would you still be advising the lawsuit?

How should L.E. act when getting a call about a man(or two) with guns displayed in holsters? Dispatch could ask more questions but at the very least, Officer(s) should be sent to the area to investigate.

When should they act? Is it only when the individuals are White, Black, Hispanic, in neighborhoods where the racial make-up does not match the armed persons? I personally can't tell the difference of who is going to commit crimes untill after the incident when the reporter interviews a former neighbor who says........ "He was a nice guy. I can't believe he did this. Something had to push him over the edge. We just didn't see this coming."

A concealed carry for law abiding citizens allows them to chose the time and place to reveal the are an armed citizen if at all.
 
Grey_Mana said:
I'd urge you to file a formal complaint. Every violation of civil rights should be documented.
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A complaint about what? That the police responded to a call, politely and professionally acted in accord with the laws of the state, checked IDs, and then talked firearms with the guys as they drove them home? It seems to me that this is about as cordial an encounter with police as you're likely to see in regards to open-carrying. It sucks that it happened, but if this is a civil rights violation then the police would be swamped with civil rights complaints every time they question someone who - it later turns out - wasn't doing anything wrong.

The only part of this is which is even vaguely questionable is that the plain-clothes cop asserted that the OP's sweatshirt was covering the firearm, when the OP says it wasn't. If true, this would mean he was carrying concealed without a permit. But, as has been noted, police are allowed to lie when talking with suspects ("We got you on camera, so you might as well admit it now!"), so that's probably exactly what the cop was doing.
 
It is the job we pay them to do.... prevent crime as well as investigate crime.
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I suspect that this thread is about over, and I've probably contributed to that, but I don't consider their job to be that of preventing crime. Where does the job of preventing crime stop? They can do anything in the name of preventing crime.

The fact that many people associate guns with crime is because they aren't used to seeing good people with guns.

Vehicles aren't seen as bad because it isn't only drunks who drive them.
 
It might be legal to pass gas in church but should you? Is it appropriate? There is a time and a place for everything. Walking down the street with your hog leg stapped on while going to the Dairy Queen for a Blizzard isn't the appropriate time to exercise your Second Amendment rights. Some people never see the bigger picture. Dammit I'll fart in church if I want to!!
 
stiffnecked said:
Unless you've got the small penis syndrome
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Seriously?
Not high road.

If you were trying to make a point, that asinine comment and your continual misuse of homophones out-shouted any meaningful conversation.

Who are you to decide when someone can carry? Who are you to decree the appropriate places to release some flatus? Open carry (and visiting places or worship) doesn't interest me, but I'm not about to decree that things I don't like to do aren't ethical/legal.
 
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