Ohio Open Carry Incident 3/22/09

[Mainsail]

If they see you with one, they will call the police, and the police will be obligated to 'interact' with you.

WRONG. The police may interact with you but it is entirely up to you if you want to interact with them. A lawful activity cannot be grounds for a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Thus detaining someone for mere open carry, where it’s legal, would be illegal for the police.

The only situation I can imagine in which it might take place would be if someone asks you if you're a police officer, you say no, and then go on to explain how open-carry rights work. But most people are not looking to get an education - they want to know if you're someone who is going to shoot them, and so they just call the cops rather than engaging you directly.

How often do you open carry? I do so every day and my real experience is nothing like your fantasy.

If I was a bad guy and needed a gun and some money that guy would be wearing my baseball bat and I will be walking away with a new gun and some money. Do not advertise carry concealed no one knows what you have and chances are the bad guy won't mess with you.

The stupidity of that statement is astounding. Have you anything to back up such drivel? Have you ever read a single study that determined that outlaws prefer armed victims over unarmed victims? Every study I’ve read says they prefer their victims unarmed.

Sadly, OC is too much of a hassle to be practiced very often.

So you really don’t support the second amendment much do you? You’re in the “You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers, or if you hassle me man” crowd.

Wake up Americans! The time is coming (and in some places already here) when even your concealed pistol will be visible to the authorities. The technology already exists. What are you going to do when the police begin to harass you for concealed carry? Unlike open carry, concealed carry is a privilege granted by the state, not a right, so you will have to prove you’re eligible to carry. All the police have to do then is stop you a few times and you’ll decide it’s more trouble than it’s worth.

 

[bigfatdave]

While I don't personally OC, I know several people who do. They carry some educational material in their pocket. I've seen a business card that has a quick summary of rights and laws of my state. Other folks just hand out flyers.

Another request for a link to printable material or somewhere to order cards for a reasonable cost.

 

[Rockwell1]

I am finally convinced

Johnny, Mainsail , I think you're both dead wrong.

The cringing tiger / hidden anti types here have convinced me that it is in our best interests to go ahead and turn them all in.

That way we won't have to worry about annoying the police and the bad guys won't be beating us over the head to take our guns.

Then we can just trust the government to protect us, look out for our best interests and keep us free

 

[wyocarp]

2) You have no CCW. Remember that there are people on this very board who proudly proclaim that "they don't need a permit to carry" even when they legally do and talk about how they willingly break the law. There's a chance the officers thought you were one of those people. "No, sir, I don't need a permit..." but it certainly helps in discerning you from a trouble maker when you're exhibiting a firearm in public.

Are you saying that their actions aren't enough to determine if someone is a trouble maker or not?

"exhibiting"? I believe it was in a holster which means it was holstered, not exhibited.

 

[zminer]

WRONG. The police may interact with you but it is entirely up to you if you want to interact with them. A lawful activity cannot be grounds for a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Thus detaining someone for mere open carry, where it’s legal, would be illegal for the police.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that the OP and his friend should have "chosen not to interact" with the police and ignored a lawful order from them to stop and put their hands on the cruiser?

Yeah, it sucks that the cops did what they did, but let's be realistic here. We have no idea what the people calling the cops said. It could have been anything from, "there are two guys calmly eating ice cream, and they happen to have holstered firearms with them," to "OMG HE HAS A GUN GET THA COPZ HERE NOW!!" In my opinion, you can't fault the police for showing up to a call. In fact, I think we'd all be pretty mad if we called the cops for something and they didn't show up.

And, once the cops were there, they did what cops do - they check out the situation to see what's going on, so they can make a decision as to what to do. And when you come upon two guys with guns, I imagine the first thing you'd do is ask those people to hand over the weapons until you're finished talking with them. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's standard procedure in most cases. Let's say you get a call about a suspicious person at a local store. You roll up, ask him if he has any weapons, and retain the weapons until you're done talking with him. It's what the police do, and it's probably what you would do if you were a cop. It makes a situation real tense if you're talking with someone and partway through he starts to untuck his shirt and you see a pistol.

The long and the short of it is this - there are intended and unintended consequences for all actions. I do not believe that the weapons policy of the police is intended to browbeat people into not OC'ing. I just don't think that's what it's meant to do. Does it have that effect in some people? Clearly, yes - some people here have said that it has had that effect on them personally. Does it mean we need to be paranoid about the cops trying to take away our gun rights? Obviously not - we have legislators for that.

 

[t3rmin]

Bravo, guys. Thanks for standing up for freedom in a way that actually cost you something. Talk is cheap. You took abuse for the cause. That's meaningful and you should be proud.

Our forefathers risked their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to make America free. You got hassled by some thugs in uniforms. Not a big deal when you think about it, but still apparently too much to ask of some.

Carry on.

 

[MAKster]

If someone calls 911 and says there is a person walking down the street with a gun the police will and must respond. Based on the incomplete and confusing information in most 911 calls, the dispatcher has not idea if the person is just open carrying or is committing an assault. Even if OC is legal in your state it isn't if you are a convicted felon, etc. The police would have to detain you and confirm your ID. And since the OP was not carrrying an ID how would the police know if there wasn't a warrant out for his arrest without taking the time to figure out who he is?

 

[Prince Yamato]

The police would have to detain you and confirm your ID. And since the OP was not carrrying an ID how would the police know if there wasn't a warrant out for his arrest without taking the time to figure out who he is?

Exactly! And in all honesty, if I was a police officer and someone was reported with a gun (having no info other than a panicked caller), I stopped them and they had no ID and only cash on them... come on folks, what would you think?

 

[Rockwell1]

Exactly! And in all honesty, if I was a police officer and someone was reported with a gun (having no info other than a panicked caller), I stopped them and they had no ID and only cash on them... come on folks, what would you think?

Well, I'd think "let's see no crimes actually been commited so I have no option other than to let these two go"
So, do you think it's ok for the police to just stop people and ask for I.D. ? Did you read the part of the OP where the cops said they knew that OC was legal? so what was the basis for the stop?

 

[amd6547]

I support OC, but I can't imagine doing it without ID. In fact, I can't imagine leaving the house without my wallet...

 

[Mainsail]

If someone calls 911 and says there is a person walking down the street with a gun the police will and must respond.

Tacoma Washington is the most crime infested city in the Northwest. The last time (that I know of anyway) that someone called the TPD because they saw me carrying openly in a city park, the TPD did not respond. Why? Because no crime was being committed and they know they cannot detain me. The time before that (Tacoma Museum of Glass), a TPD officer demanded my CPL and I asked if I was being detained. He said, “No, but if you just show me your CPL you can be free to leave.” I reminded him that I was already free to leave. His sergeant called him over and told me I was free to leave.

Seriously, some of you need to learn your civil rights.

 

[Gamera]

I asked if I was being detained. He said, “No, but if you just show me your CPL you can be free to leave.” I reminded him that I was already free to leave.

Bravo. And bravo to the OP for exercising his rights and calmly dealing with the situation. I wish open carry was legal here

 

[zminer]

the TPD did not respond. Why? Because no crime was being committed and they know they cannot detain me.

How do you know someone called the police, if they didn't show up?

And someone did call the police, probably what happened is that the caller relayed enough information that they made a judgment call that you were not doing anything wrong. If someone calls the police, says, "there's a man with a gun at 123 Main St.," and hangs up, the cops will show up. And when they show up, you have to obey lawful orders given by them.

Seriously, some of you need to learn your civil rights.

I do know my rights, and you were well within yours to walk away once the officer confirmed that you were free to go. I'm glad you were able to do so, and didn't bow to the officer's tactic meant to try to make you stick around. But I'm also pretty sure that the police have the right to detain you - without arrest - at least until they can determine whether a crime is being committed. Let's say that someone called 911 and (incorrectly) said that the OP was threatening people with the firearm. The cops can detain him long enough to positively identify him ("is this the guy we got the call about?") and ask him for details of what happened ("what's actually going on here, and has a law been broken?"). Now, we'll never know what was said to the 911 operator, so this is a little bit of a moot point.

I think it would be a much better discussion to talk about ways in which OC could become a learning experience for the public, rather than discussing what your rights are once the police have shown up. Has anyone ever - for example - passed out literature at public events about open carrying, while open carrying? Or spoken publicly to groups about your local firearms laws? I think that might be more useful.

 

[Mainsail]

How do you know someone called the police, if they didn't show up?

I knew because her cell-phone was to her ear and she was hissing desperately into it, “…but he has a gun and he’s carrying it right out in the open! No…no, he’s carrying it openly!”

The police never came. In fact, I did several extra laps that afternoon out of curiosity that they might to show up. On another day while riding my bike I was stopped by TPD who were arresting some folks who were ignoring the alcohol prohibition in the park (someone went and told them about me). The officer asked me for my ID and I asked if was being detained. He said no, so I didn’t show him anything. Neither of us was hostile, and the encounter was brief.

 

[glove]

OC

Here is one story
Man robbed in the Centreville area

About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.

The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

Anyone with information about this incident or these suspects is asked to call Crime Solvers at 1-866-411-TIPS (8477) or the police non-emergency number at 703-691-2131.



I'm just posting the story. Situational awareness is always important. Checking your six should always be done.

Open carrying takes away the surprise and criminals choose to use more force usually. He's lucky they didn't go further with him as they weren't caught anyways.

I'm not making this an anti-open carry post. Just posting an article.

Story Link

 

[rhoggman]

Personally I would think that in states where it is legal to open carry the police would at least have one follow up question to a complaint about someone with a gun.... "Are they threatening anyone, or posturing themselves in a threatening manner with the firearm?"

This question could answer many unknowns about the situation. With the full knowledge that it is perfectly legal to have a weapon holstered in open view the officer could explain that this is legal.

If someone is carrying at the ready that is obviously a different situation.

I think this type of reaction has more to do with COPS covering their own buttocks than anything else. If they don't respond to a call like this what are the implications if someone does get hurt.

I don't open carry for this very reason.... Socially you stand out like a sore thumb, and with all the pre-Madonnas out there these days you are bound to cause a scene.

You do not want to have to talk to Police Officers if at all possible whether you are a law abiding citizen or not. Most COPS could have a 5 minute conversation with anyone and find the justification to write them up for something.... especially if you have called their attention by something that you have done.

Notice the OP said that one of the COPs mentioned something about inciting fear. Point is they probably could have written the OP a ticket or taken him in but decided not to because they were unsure whether it would fly.

All it takes is one local policy right or wrong, and you are in the middle of a legal battle. Personally I would probably lose my job the next day whether I was guilty or not.

 

[wyocarp]

Open carrying takes away the surprise and criminals choose to use more force usually.

That's a nice opinion, but it isn't based on any facts, so it's worth what's been paid for it.

 

[bigfatdave]

Source please

About 4:10 a.m. Sunday, July 30, officers were called to the area of Newton Patent Drive and Newton Tavern Drive. A 21-year-old Centreville-area man was robbed while walking on Newton Patent Drive. Two suspects approached the victim from behind, and placed a metal object up to the victim’s head. The suspects took the victim’s hand gun which he was openly carrying. The suspect’s then fled the area. The victim was not injured.
The suspects were described as black males wearing dark clothing.

Where was that article from?
I'm not calling it fiction, but we all have seen shoddy journalism in the past, and that sounds like a common mugging for a high-dollar portable item, the same as a mugging for a laptop, or some expensive sneakers, or any other visible status symbol.
And what professional reporter/editor let a apostrophe misuse get through?

 

[glove]

Sorry found it on the internet and you know if it is on the internet it must be true.
Dave

 

[zminer]

It's from Fairfax County Virginia, and it's a press release, which is why it doesn't sound like a news story:

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

 

[Clipper]

Soccer mom called the cops...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...on me this evening when I went to the fishing dock while her kids were fishing (with illegal lures). Park rangers moseyed in to check me out, but of course there wasn't any problem, and we parted friendly. Although they weren't sure if it was legal for someone to open carry if they had a CPL (!). We discussed it a bit, and they went on their way.

I thought I'd paste in a post I made the other day on MGO. I open carry just about everywhere and every day (I only CCW anymore when I'm wearing a coat of some sort). I'm retired, so I have all the time in the world to deal with uneducated officers. I also won't have any qualms about suing the bejeesus out of any municipality where I might get get wrongly arrested...

 

[wyocarp]

GO Clipper. It's you and me buddy against the rest of the world. I too will spend whatever time is needed to restore the education into our police force.

 

[Commonsense10]

question

I usually only read and don't get involved, but I want to understand for my own puropses. Didn't the OP say that his gun may have been covered by his sweatshirt at one point. I don't know anyone who routinely OCs, but I would think you would ensure that there is no chance that your gun is inadvertently covered by a jacket, bulky clothes etc to avoid any gray area or a reason for a stop. Am I on the right track here.

 

[Deanimator]

Didn't the OP say that his gun may have been covered by his sweatshirt at one point.

No, I believe that one of the cops said that.

 

[Commonsense10]

Ok, that being the case, how does that figure in?