Oliver North to be the next NRA President

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Ah yes. . . the 'ole "do it first" fallacy. This is voices as, Before doing this thing, we should do this, unrelated, or at best tangentially related, thing. I see this on with things like "before going to Mars, we should fix the environment (as if people can agree on what they even means).
The idea of pro 2A Dems criticizing Republicans and the NRA when it's their own party that is trying to take away our gun rights is COMPLETELY RELATED....

I am not going to address the content of your argument, not because it would be hard to address, after all, it isn't. the reason that I am avoiding this argument is the very reason I am here.

You're not addressing my point because it is factual, Dems are the main threat to our 2A rights, You can't argue that fact...but you will take the time to try and cloud the issue...
 
You're not addressing my point because it is factual, Dems are the main threat to our 2A rights, You can't argue that fact...but you will take the time to try and cloud the issue...
This isn't the sort of thing that we want to be fighting, and it is the sort of thing that will get this thread shut down.

You and he aren't enemies. Pro-gun dems and pro-gun repubs shouldn't be enemies. And he can't change his party any more than I can remove a plank from the republican party platform. If I could, there would be a few that were quite different...
 
You and he aren't enemies. Pro-gun dems and pro-gun repubs shouldn't be enemies. And he can't change his party any more than I can remove a plank from the republican party platform.

No, he is not my enemy... But he is questioning the obvious fact that the Democrats as a whole are the biggest threat to our 2A rights while criticizing the NRA and Republicans who are protecting those rights... If the threats to our 2A rights don't come from the Democratic Party then where exactly do you think they come from???? Or are you trying trying disregard the facts because you don't want the left leaning members of this forum to be put-off by the truth? How do we expect to successful deal with these threats in the future when we can't even say where the threat is coming from without being silenced???
 
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This would be stupid. Nothing against someone caught up in political scandal, who was primarily just the scapegoat, but when you are heading a political machine about gun rights you shouldn't be a convicted criminal that was primarily known for smuggling arms. Might as well have Victor Bout.

Politics is not fair, it is half about reputation and perception, and why negative ads and smear campaigns and destructive scandal plays as big or more of a role than what the person really stands for or how good of a character they have.

Do you think having a guy connected to the Iran Contra affair known for supplying arms to Iran with whom we have a poor relationship, as the face of your gun rights is going to help in keeping them?
Or do you think it will help connect gun owners and the desires of the NRA with weapons smuggling and third world mayhem?

I think you would have a hard time finding someone more helpful to the antis in thwarting the goals of the NRA. Is the NRA trying to suicide? You think Oliver North in power if the Democrats win the next presidential election and get more control of Congress is not going to play right into the hands of passing some really bad legislation?
I can see the ads already, complete with images of Iranian Muslim extremists holding AKs and in Technicals with images of the Ayatollah looking no different to most with short attention span in the west than Islamic State radicals or Al Qaeda.
And maybe toss in a few of the bad things the Contras did as well.
While he is calling for more gun rights and defeating the antis proposed bans.

What better way could you take the support of millions of US citizens and their money and make it do as little as possible?
Zoogster,
For some odd reason, your writing of the Iran-Contra Affair differs significantly with that of recorded history:
Attorney General Edwin Meese launched an investigation into the weapons deal, and found that some $18 million of the $30 million Iran had paid for the weapons was unaccounted for.

It was then that Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, of the National Security Council, came forward to acknowledge that he had diverted the missing funds to the Contras in Nicaragua, who used them to acquire weapons.

North said he had done so with the full knowledge of National Security Advisor Admiral John Poindexter.
https://www.history.com/topics/iran-contra-affair#
I am not sure why you wish to portray Oliver North as the mastermind of a political scandal. It does not help anyone to distort the actual events. In reality, Oliver North was following orders of his superiors.
Also, the idea of supporting the Contras' efforts to resist the Sandanistas may have been noble, (though the methodology misguided) as well as consistent with US's historical doctrine of limiting, if not eliminating, communist governments in the western hemisphere and supporting the principles of freedom and democratic republicanism. Central America was just a little too close for comfort for us in the days before the collapse of the USSR.
That the money came from Iran, at a time when that country was fighting Saddam Hussein, in an effort to free Americans held hostage by terrorists in Lebanon is an ironic twist caused by congressional indifference.

Anyway, O.N. came forward in the midst of the investigation and was straight up about his role in the affair. Which is a heck of a lot more than you can say for the typical politician that gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Give Ollie a chance. Stop using misinformation and innuendo to smear someone most people would consider an honorable man. And quit calling him a convicted criminal, because he is not. Our support of the 2A is not assisted with false statements and accusations aimed at anyone, let alone our own leaders.

Personally, I like the guy's sense of honor and duty and would have been proud to have served under his command.
(Not very likely as I spent my time in the USAF.)
 
No, he is not my enemy... But he is questioning the obvious fact that the Democrats as a whole are the biggest threat to our 2A rights while criticizing the NRA and Republicans who are protecting those rights... If the threats to our 2A rights don't come from the Democratic Party then where exactly do you think they come from???? Or are you trying trying disregard the facts because you don't want the left leaning members of this forum to be put-off by the truth?
See? This is why we don't do politics.

My opinion? Bloomberg and Soros and big democratic donors won't give money to pro-gun Democrats, and our system requires wheelbarrows of money per day/week to run an effective campaign. Civilian elites are driving this, though I also believe that entrenched bureaucrats and politicians in both parties see the 2nd amendment as a threat to their own self interest, so they have no problem with slowly dialing up the knob on restrictions. This works because the democratic party as it exists today is the party of urban areas (and most urbanites don't get guns and don't see it as an issue), and the republican party is the party of rural areas (who do get guns and typically see it as a big issue). Personally I think it would be healthier if we could just see it as rural vs urban and leave it at that.

Regardless, the NRA is worthy of some criticism (this decision, backing the GCA in '68, backing NFA in '34, and why the hell didn't our Dealer In Chief get some concessions before doing away with bump stocks, like ccw reciprocity or removing suppressors from the NFA list? Why didn't the NRA offer these options and give their support for a deal that got us something?)

I don't see why you're so heated here. The DNC sets the agenda for the Democratic party, and you know how opaque and dirty that organization is. Why are you blaming folks who feel that on all the various issues other than guns the Democrats are a better fit? Nobody who's a member here is pro-confiscation.
 
No, he is not my enemy... But he is questioning the obvious fact that the Democrats as a whole are the biggest threat to our 2A rights while criticizing the NRA and Republicans who are protecting those rights... If the threats to our 2A rights don't come from the Democratic Party then where exactly do you think they come from???? Or are you trying trying disregard the facts because you don't want the left leaning members of this forum to be put-off by the truth?

Can you take a moment and tell me where I said these things?

It is clear that you are trying to cast me as some gun grabbing villain. Frankly, that is preposterous. Aside from the fact taht, no matter what you seem to think that you know about me, you don't know me; nor I you.

I thought I made it clear that I consider gun owner rights issues to be a place where the Democratic part needs to change. If I didn't say:
I frequently get "How are we doing and what would you like to see changed" surveys. You can be sure that I take each and every one as an opportunity to rail against the anti gun owner plank of the Democratic Party. I would love to post the links to those surveys here, so we can flood them with pro gun owner rights positions on those surveys; but I am not clear on THR policies about that, so I don't.

I have also taken the opportunity to speak at the local caucus about the gun control problem with the Democratic Party. It is a loosing issue.
Then I apologize for being so unclear.

However, I did also say:
I agree that we are better served by helping pro gun owner rights Democrats than by further aligning ourselves to a single party.
I stand by that. As the Democratic party gains new adherents, and the Republican party rolls remain nearly stagnant, I do feel that we are putting ourselves in a poor position if we make the issue about party allegiance rather than about cause allegiance.

While it is easiest to wave our pom-pom's and shout "yea team" I feel the, long term, winning proposition is to try to work to promote pro gun Democrats. At the present many Democrats see that as a loosing proposition. A pro gun owners rights Democrat will get no support from the gun owners rights community and they are starting out with a position that goes against the central party, thus reducing their access to funding from that source. We need to be working to make it clear that being a pro gun owners rights candidate is a winning position. In the long run, I see this as providing us, the community of gun owners, with more wins.

As it happens, even though I am a member of several pro gun owner rights organizations, there are other causes that also compel my interest. Again, I am not going to go into detail, regarding those causes, because this is not the place.
 
The reasons WHY the Democratic Party is the way it is doesn't really matter to me. I understand them but the why doesn't matter. The threat they pose does...
Civilian elites are driving this
Yes
I also believe that entrenched bureaucrats and politicians in both parties see the 2nd amendment as a threat to their own self interest, so they have no problem with slowly dialing up the knob on restrictions.
Don't see it but ok..
Regardless, the NRA is worthy of some criticism (this decision, backing the GCA in '68, backing NFA in '34
Yes but it was a different time altogether.... a little late to be criticizing the NRA for that now...
and why the hell didn't our Dealer In Chief get some concessions before doing away with bump stocks, like ccw reciprocity or removing suppressors from the NFA list? Why didn't the NRA offer these options and give their support for a deal that got us something?
I assume because that would probably have required congress... Yeah, I'm opposed to that move but I'm not going start trashing the NRA because of what they did 50 years ago that I happen to disagree with, while ignoring the fact that 95% of what they do is positive..
 
Can you take a moment and tell me where I said these things?
Hasaf, I was debating 3 posts at once while trying defend my position with Derek. The way I wrote it was wrong, but unintentional, making it look like you said all of the things. You did not, others did... My apologies for that...

It is clear that you are trying to cast me as some gun grabbing villain. Frankly, that is preposterous.

No I am not...
 
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I don't see anyone here "trashing" the NRA; perhaps I missed that post. What I saw was people saying that, in general, North was a good choice. For various reasons some clearly felt that there were some better choices; no matter, he is still a good choice. No one, that I see, is renouncing their life memberships (at least not in this thread). A person saying that they think X is better than Y is not the same as saying that Y is bad.

Myself, I read and enjoyed Mr. North's autobiography and finished it with a very positive impression of him.
 
My inbox is full of such things from the Democrats. They're just veiled requests for donations. Those Democratic fund raisers are not really interested in what you or I think.

Those are push polls. They are used by every cause. They ask questions of little useful informative value with answers they know that you would be excited to support, send a check. I recently got a certificate from the NRA declaring me a champion of freedom. Looked like a diploma. Send a check. It is a standard fund raising technique.
 
Hasaf, I was debating 3 posts at once while trying defend my position with Derek. The way I wrote it was wrong, but unintentional, making it look like you said all of the things. You did not, others did... My apologies for that...

Understood, the context of forums leads to these crossed wires. . . Cheers!
 
Civil rights organizations like the NRA would benefit from, foremost and obviously, pro-gun, but also diverse leadership - especially politically, but also with regard to race, color, creed, religion, gender, and whatever other identity a pro-gun human could be.

The NRA is now more closely aligned with the right because most members identify more closely with those values overall. That does nothing to gain liberal gun allies. It’s also impossible to set aside those values for most true believers and I would never ask, no matter how offensive some of those values are to me, but pro-gun conservatives have to understand why a pro-gun libertarian like me or even a liberal wants nothing to do with the rest of the stuff pro-gun people and organizations bring.

North was not a good pick for what I think needs to be done. He is a great pick for what the average NRA member wants - solidly 2A and reliably Republican.

I’m a life member with no plans to quit. The NRA is THE organization for lobbying and power, but it’s also one in which I know I’m not always welcome by many members due to my political and religious views.
 
Along the lines of this argument:

Is the NRA Too Republican to Effectively Advocate for Gun Rights?

The second paragraph is this:
"There's never been a worse time to be a terrorist than with Donald Trump as president," gushed Chris W. Cox, chief lobbyist and political strategist for the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action. "But you know what? There's never been a better time to be a law-abiding, gun-carrying, flag-waving, god-fearing, freedom-loving American patriot," he added, tacking on an endorsement for a second term for the president.
It's a little thing, but why is an NRA talking head making religious statements? Regardless of his (or my, or your) personal beliefs, many find this divisive. They aren't interested in joining a religious organization, or an organization that supports "traditional conservative values." They want to support a pro-gun organization.

This direction from the NRA might be sub-optimal for future growth and bringing in everyone who believes in gun rights. (Was that criticism gentle enough? ;) )
 
When pro-gun Republican candidates are endorsed by the NRA they are inadvertently and indirectly supporting the rest of the Republican Platform as well and that is the way the vast majority of the population will always see it...

Bingo.

The NRA donated 21 million to the Trump campaign. More than they have ever contributed to a political candidate.

Mostly they were trying to defeat Hillary and that was the only way they could do that. But still, to the average voter it looks like they support the GOP platform, whatever that is these days.
 
It's a little thing, but why is an NRA talking head making religious statements?


Yep, it was a little thing... wasn't worth mentioning....
 
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I'd disagree with that. You may not think so but it is a turn-off to many. If they want to support a candidate - they support the candidate for the gun rights position only. Be quiet on the other issues. There is only one for them. Are you pro or anti gun rights?
 
....the obvious fact that the Democrats as a whole are the biggest threat to our 2A rights....

The "Democrats as a whole" -- the blue-collar, working people that make up the bulk of the Democratic party -- are not the threat to the 2nd Amendment. That threat comes from urban elites, "opinion leaders," academia, and the media, who are driving policy on the Democratic side. You could say that they have taken over the party through a kind of coup. We all know that the antigun sentiment does not come from the grass roots. It's all Astroturf, pushed from above.

Polarization leaves pro-gun working people with a stark choice -- either support Republicans, who are good on guns but work against their economic interests, or support Democrats, who are with them on the economy but are terrible on guns. Most people, even gun owners, would put their economic well-being ahead of their guns. Some people, like me, are increasingly loath to vote at all. In 2016, I just could not bring myself to vote for either candidate. The choice was between a clown and a harridan. I went to the polls to vote only for the local bond issues.
 
Personally, I like the guy's sense of honor and duty and would have been proud to have served under his command.
(Not very likely as I spent my time in the USAF.)

I guess the combat medals O.N. received in Vietnam mean nothing to most people. They mean something to a vet and they mean something to me. O.N. was a military officer and military officers follow the COC. O.N. had the approval of his superiors when he did what he did. That's pretty much been uncontested and I believe it based on my military experience. Marine Corp officers are hard core COC types more than officers in other branches of the service.
 
You know Alexander I believe what you said about the blue collar working people vs the urban elites is true in part. But, it still doesn't change the fact that if the "bulk of the Democratic Party" wanted to change things bad enough they could, with their votes. I do see how it puts you between a rock and a hard place though..

Meanwhile, the Republicans are keeping your gun rights from going down the tubes..


The whole thing with the economy is off topic but is doing pretty well currently from all signs that I see...
 
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Most people, even gun owners, would put their economic well-being ahead of their guns.

It's not really putting your economic well being ahead of your guns, it's putting your economic well being ahead of your RIGHTS. My rights aren't for sale...
 
Polarization leaves pro-gun working people with a stark choice -- either support Republicans, who are good on guns but work against their economic interests,....

Now , if I were inclined to contribute to a political discussion which has several tangents , and is not looked upon favorably by the moderators , I would vigorously challenge that statement. But no ......
 
It's not really putting your economic well being ahead of your guns, it's putting your economic well being ahead of your RIGHTS. My rights aren't for sale...
Fair enough. We, as gun supporters, have a lot of work ahead of us to convince people that guns equal rights. Guns are not mentioned in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (proclaimed by the U.N. General Assembly in 1948). In fact, I believe the U.S. is unique in all the world as recognizing guns as a right, and enshrining that right in its constitution. So, saying that there is a right to guns is distinctly a minority opinion.
 
No, he is not my enemy... But he is questioning the obvious fact that the Democrats as a whole are the biggest threat to our 2A rights while criticizing the NRA and Republicans who are protecting those rights... If the threats to our 2A rights don't come from the Democratic Party then where exactly do you think they come from???? Or are you trying trying disregard the facts because you don't want the left leaning members of this forum to be put-off by the truth? How do we expect to successful deal with these threats in the future when we can't even say where the threat is coming from without being silenced???
I think we could say "The Democratic Party" and/or "The Democratic Party platform" instead of saying Democrats, to remind us that individual rank and file Dems are not our enemy.
 
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