Opinions on the handling of a minor "confrontation."

[Flea]

The wife and I were in Nashville a while back, and we had reservations at a hotel we did not realize was in a somewhat "undesirable" area of town. We had been out most of the day, and were doing some shopping, etc.

We headed back to the hotel, dropped our stuff we had gotten that afternoon and decided to go to the CVS up the road for some drinks and snacks. I was, of course, carrying all day (G17, SOB holster).

We turn in the parking lot for the CVS and I immediately get a bad feeling about the group of youths (probably between 18 and 21) standing near the entrance to the parking lot. They are kind of sauntering about, not really walking somewhere, but not really staying put. I had enough room to pull in the parking lot and clear traffic, so I did. I stopped and waved them on, as it looked like they were headed across my path. At this point they were probably 10-15 feet from the vehicle.

Most of the group crossed right in front of my vehicle and a few locked eyes with us and wouldn't break stare. At this point, I got "that feeling" and went from yellow to orange, and I felt a surge of adrenaline. My wife got uneasy and noticed one of the group walking directly up to her passenger window. I kept the rest of the group in the corner of my eye, and turned to face a guy, probably 20 years old right at the passenger window (close enough that he could have leaned in if the window was open). My hand immediately went to the small of my back and I locked eyes with him and simply shook my head in a "don't try it" gesture. He paused for a second and glanced toward the small of my back, by which time the rest of the group was clear of the front of the vehicle and not paying us any attention anymore. He took one step back and never broke stare again, and I drove on into the parking lot.

It took me nearly an hour before my "fight or flight" response calmed down completely.

 

[Dan M.]

And you went ahead and parked and entered the store? I assume the "youths" were wandering down the street by this time?

 

[newbie4help]

This was probably an unnecessary escalation IMHO. You were in your car, windows up, doors locks. No need to make threatening gestures imo. My theory in a car is - if somebody does something stupid like pull a knife or try to open the door, you can drive away. You can always escalate if need be - not as easy to de-escalate.

OTOH nothing happened so maybe it was the right thing - but they were probably being young punks, it was broad daylight, but not a real threat. You took a risk that it could has escalated into gunfire, and you were severely outnumbered.

 

[conw]

You should think in terms other than grabbing the gun. What're you going to do, shoot across your wife and ruin her hearing and shatter the glass of the window? Even if the guy were to pull a gun, you'd be better off flooring it in reverse or even running over him. Why did you lock eyes instead of getting out of there? Whether on foot or in a car, get out of there is option #1 always. Being in a car makes it MUCH easier to do so.

You asked for opinions

 

[Flea]

Keep in mind, had I floored it in drive, I would have run over 3-4 of his buddies. Had I floored it in reverse, I would have backed right onto a busy 4-lane blind.

 

[conw]

Who said floor it in drive? Last time I checked a slow-moving car pushes hoodlums out of the way pretty darn well

Point taken that you felt trapped. But I think if you let your car creep forward, like most will do in drive when you don't touch the accelerator, you would persuade the boyz to move out of the way.

 

[conw]

Last reply isn't showing up to edit...I want to add that the key is to knowing how to frame the situation if it becomes a legal problem for you.

You would basically want to say that four or five people came up and hemmed you in right after turning and began approaching the car in a threatening manner. You motioned them out of the way and felt threatened, so you slowly pulled forward and gave them time to get out of the way. Just be sure not to hurt them unless you're afraid for your life. I imagine a determined game face would go a long way, along with taking your foot off the brake, in persuading them to move. No one wants to stand in front of a moving car!

I had a similar situation, to make the story short: I saw an apparently abandoned car with blinkers on near my apartment. It was night time and I got out about 20 yds down the road and shined the light in the woods (it was winter), thinking an elderly person may have had a health issue. Well, I saw a duffel bag a ways from the car and thought "Finders keepers," turns out it was full of drug paraphernalia and who knows what. As I was putting it in the trunk I heard "Hey, give that back!" Three Indian or Pakistani guys surrounded the car, I jumped in and my GF was driving, and I told her just to get out of there. They tried to block the car with their bodies, but they chickened out first

The bag fell out because the trunk wasn't fully shut (I don't want drug paraphernalia anyway), and I learned a good lesson: MYOB in a metro area and don't pick up strange duffel bags at night. I coulda been killed if that were a serious drug dropoff.

 

[Stirling XD]

Sounds to me like you did OK. Even if the guy on the passenger side pulled a gun, running over his buddies is problematic. He'd lose the gun and claim he and his buddies were the victims of some maniac. "We were just walking across the parking lot going to the library to study and this crazy guy just ran over my friends." Unless there were other witnesses you would be the one going to jail and getting sued.

I'm curious, was the guy that stepped up to the passenger window one of those that you locked eyes with while walking in front of you? Locking eyes with someone, especially a thug or thug wannabe, can escalate a situation. However, I won't fault your stare down and head shake with the guy at the passenger window.

No one was killed, hurt, arrested or sued. That is a very desireable outcome.

 

[Flea]

He was not one that I initially locked eyes with. He broke off from the group almost as soon as we pulled into the parking lot, and walked in the direction of my passenger window right after I turned... almost as if he were getting ready to solicit something to me.

Perhaps I should revise my statement a bit... I did not lock eyes in a threatening manner; at least, that was not my intent. I perhaps should have indicated that I kept my eyes on them watching for aggressive movement and happened to lock eyes with a couple of them for a few seconds perhaps (even if it seemed like an eternity).

 

[Hungry Seagull]

You were not prey. The reach combined with the eye and headshake did it.

Nash or crash-ville as we know it is pretty rough in some areas. It's easier to get a hotel on the Cumberland out to the east and drive in from about 20 miles out of downtown.

 

[Grizfire]

You were there and I wasn't, therefore, I feel if you thought you had to reach and give a head shake, than that was the correct thing to do.

The top priority for me is to be ready. Had he attacked, the damage would already be done before you could reach for your piece, you'd only be doing mop up work.

I feel the whole, "only draw once attacked" advice is good legal advice, but not good self defense advice. Its a fine line indeed.

 

[Claude Clay]

a slow-moving car pushes hoodlums out of the way pretty darn well

ensures that they will beat on your car good and proper.

flea did right for what was happening. the proof is that nothing ended up happening.

 

[VegasOPM]

It's done, you and your wife are both safe. Nobody got hurt, on either side. Everyone is happy.... in other words, the outcome was the best possible so you did fine.

Maybe they would have pounced if you seemed like prey, maybe they wanted to compliment you on your choice in vehicles, maybe they think you are a rude jerk, or a cool dude- it doesn't matter a bit. The outcome is all that matters.

 

[BHP FAN]

Stirling had it right ,IMHO.
''No one was killed, hurt, arrested or sued. That is a very desireable outcome...''
I've had a coupla these in my lifetime,and you got the desired result.Generally,if you're an even half aware individual,your instinct is right.You followed your 'gut' and came out ok. Good. That's what we want.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

I'd highly advise against staring at anyone in a city of any size. Use peripheral vision. Once people become ignored, they lose interest. But if someone bangs on your car, then it's go time.

 

[drjoker]

you did fine

Flea,

You did fine. Everyone was safe and that's all that matters.

I think that others had a valid point and that's if you draw after the other guy draws, it might get messy. However, if you draw before, it is not legal.

I also carry a Glock. However, in a motor vehicle, the hot spent cases will hit the wife if you fire it in a car. I am in the process of buying a 357 magnum revolver as a car gun. Revolvers don't eject spent cases. 357 Magnum also penetrates car windows better. I also plan on putting it in a paper bag holster. That way, I could point the weapon at someone without "brandishing". I just point it at someone with the paper bag over it. A friend of mine was jumped while he was carrying a paper bag holster. The assailant thought that he had the drop on my buddy, not knowing that my buddy had his gun pointed at him already. My friend shot him before the BG could pull the trigger.

Stay safe,
Drjoker.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

...the hot spent cases will hit the wife if you fire it in a car.

Hot brass in you wife's cleavage will be the least of your worries.

I am in the process of buying a 357 magnum revolver as a car gun.

.357 Magnum or any magnum cartridge is a very poor choice for personal defense, due to multiple factors.

I also plan on putting it in a paper bag holster. That way, I could point the weapon at someone without "brandishing".

Wow!

 

[Eyesac]

Sounds like you did fine to me. Of course there are problems with putting your hand on you gun, but everything worked out ok...

I also plan on putting it in a paper bag holster.

If I were a hitman...

 

[lanternlad1]

I also plan on putting it in a paper bag holster. That way, I could point the weapon at someone without "brandishing".

Nifty idea. Roughly the equivalent of keeping your CCW in your pocket with your hand on it.

I can see where a good can of gel based pepper spray or taser is useful in this situation. If you have to confront a crowd of them, bear pepper spray would work. Sometimes it just takes the knowledge that you will do SOMETHING that brings these kids back to earth.

I had a situation once outside my home where 3 bored "youths" were actively trying to destroy a stop sign on a hot summer day. Not playing with it, but actually trying to pull it down. I walked over to them with my cell phone camera and started to take pictures of them doing it. (yes, I was carrying) One of them got all puffed up and asked me what the hell I thought I was doing. I told him that since this was the third stop sign there being vandalized this year, when the cops come to ask me who did it, I can show them. He got all teed off and started calling me names and threatening me, and that is when I pulled out my secret weapon.

The garden hose. I soaked his goofy butt good and proper. The two guys with him started laughing at him.

He started screaming at me about how I was "crazy", and that he'd "have me locked up", but he backed away as he said it. I told him to go ahead, and when the police asked me what this was all about, I'd have the pictures to show them. At this point, he threatened to "get his gun" (he was about 16-17) and "pop a cap in my azz".

Then I did the reach and headshake. His eyes got wide as saucers, and he backed up quicker and started walking away. I think the realization that I had been armed the whole time got to him and scared him good. Found out later that he was a cousin of one of the two other kids whose Mama had sent him to Texas from Chicago to get him away from trouble for the summer. Looks like he was intent on finding it all by himself, and when I did the reach, he realized he wasn't in Kansas (or Illinois) anymore.

"The reach" can save your life and diffuse situations quickly. I've had several times when "the reach" has diffused potentially bad situations. Don't discount it.

But be ready to REALLY draw and fire too.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Thank you LanternLad1.

THANK you for such a wonderful story. I love it the way the friends laughed at the soaked anklebiter.

The Saucer bit was the final pin as far as Im concerned.

GREAT story. Oughta ship those youths to the Engineers so they can learn Demo in Bootcamp.

 

[James T Thomas]

"Old Luke's mind a'int right!"

I disagree with the poster who percieved you reaction to be an escalation.

My experience has been that; with punks, if you show any softness what so ever, even if you are not soft, they will most often interpret it as weakness.

And then escalation will ensue -from their part.

 

[MDG1976]

"The reach" can save your life and diffuse situations quickly. I've had several times when "the reach" has diffused potentially bad situations. Don't discount it.

Maybe so, but don't draw that weapon unless you're going to fire it.

 

[conw]

Claude Clay wrote:

ensures that they will beat on your car good and proper

Maybe so. That ensures that I will speed up proportionate to their good proper beating, as they have thus shown their hand

mdg1976 wrote:

Maybe so, but don't draw that weapon unless you're going to fire it.

I prefer "willing/legally able to fire it" as a standard.

drjoker wrote:

I also carry a Glock. However, in a motor vehicle, the hot spent cases will hit the wife if you fire it in a car. I am in the process of buying a 357 magnum revolver as a car gun. Revolvers don't eject spent cases.

First off, I don't see why people are so afraid of "hot brass." I've caught flying brass and it didn't even hurt my hand. Second, a 357 mag will blind and deafen the people in the car worse than any other gun I can think of! The paper bag thing...dude, what?! Sounds great 'til you use it and the cops find your shot-through paper bag. If I were on a jury, you would need to be able to do a better job of explaining why you shot through a paper bag at someone than "I wanted to point my gun at someone without 'brandishing' it."

 

[Smith]

Maybe so, but don't draw that weapon unless you're going to fire it.

I prefer "willing/legally able to fire it" as a standard.

Well said.

 

[RoboDuck]

"The reach" can save your life and diffuse situations quickly. I've had several times when "the reach" has diffused potentially bad situations. Don't discount it.

This may work with punks and teenagers. I promise you that there is an element you will encounter that is not at all impressed by the fact you are armed.