Lessons from a confrontation today

[CWL]

Everybody walked away safe. End of story.

Even if you had let the nutjob work himself to the point where you could have legally "gunned" him, do you really want to go through that? Do you want your wife & grandson to go through the trauma?

Once again, even if you were absolutely within your legal rights to defend yourselves with a firearm, would it really have been worth it for an altercation that began with a puppy?

Like I said, everybody walked away safe. Let karma work it's mojo on that guy. End of story.

 

[David E]

Your after incident review found most of the problems with how you and your wife handled it.

I am shocked that your wife of 33 yrs didn't, prior to this event, trust you with carrying a gun and your reasons for doing so.

HER duty is to get the grandson OUT of there, or to call 911, not to run into the middle of the deal.

Sounds like it caused the right things to come up on the discussion after the fact, tho, which is good.

 

[rainbowbob]

Everybody walked away safe. End of story.

Well...not quite. For me it isn't over until I examine (as my wife and I did, and as we are doing here) what we did wrong, and how we could better avoid a situation like this altogether.

I absolutely do not want my wife and grandson - or myself - to be involved in the trauma of a violent encounter.

I am shocked that your wife of 33 yrs didn't, prior to this event, trust you with carrying a gun and your reasons for doing so.

For 31 of those 33 years I did not carry a gun. She comes from the "guns are bad - people with guns are bad" school of thought (actually it's more like a school of "emotion" rather than "thought").

If you look at some of my early posts on THR, you will see she has actually come a long, way in the right direction in the last 18 months or so. In a way - this incident was important for both of us in our development along those lines.

HER duty is to get the grandson OUT of there, or to call 911, not to run into the middle of the deal.

Her and I agree that "next" time, that's what she will do.

 

[expvideo]

And my point was that after you've made a parting-shot, smart aleck comment, you've ALREADY escalated it. Even inadvertently so. At that point, de-escalation might not be an argument. Remember your (and not YOU personally, whomever) mouth has already gotten you in trouble. Trying to talk your way out of it to a belligerent person might be futile.

All I was saying, having taken an introspective look at myself having read the OP's story, I probably would have done the same thing: snapped off a hot headed response and then had to deal with the fact that now he's really pissed off and coming at me. I need to be careful about that.

It's pretty clear, even from the OP's analysis, that the best course of action would have been to not say anything or engage him in any way.

You are blaming yourself for the other person's unwarranted violence. Do you realize that?

You never know what sets people off nowadays... As far as speaking your piece - if someone else is pissed off, aggressive, etc. because of something you've said, the opportunity to speak your piece has passed. Now you're in defense mode, with a gun. Not good - especially when all you had to do was eat a bit of crow and walk off.

Again, you just said something smart-assed. He is the one that is becoming violent. You shouldn't be blaming yourself for someone else being a senselessly violent person, and you shouldn't live your life in fear of these people, or interact in a fearful way lest you upset someone who might commit a violent crime against you. At least that's the way I see it.

As CCP holders, it's our implicit responsibility, at least IMHO, to be the mature, thinking adult. We hold, within arms reach, a means to end someone's life and should avoid confrontation at all cost.

I avoid confrontation, and I agree that it is our responsibility to do so. But I don't hold myself responsible for irrationally violent people. They are the ones that are wrong, and I will not cower in fear of them. I will be myself and interact in a normal and friendly way with people, and if someone does something that upsets me I may or may not confront them about that. Them escalating irrationally to violence is their fault, not mine, and I will not blame myself for their crimes.

Have you ever had someone say something to you that upset you? Ever had someone say "Hey, watch where you're going!" or "Will you keep it down?!"? Did you react by punching their lights out? Would it have been justified if you did? Would it have been their fault for throwing you into an uncontrollable rage?

 

[Mainsail]

Here’s where it got hinky:

From about 20 yards away he asked loudly in a threatening tone, “Do we need to talk about this some more?”

Right here is where one of you should have been calling 911. It was escalating and you were armed, better to have the cops on the way just in case.

 

[Polish_Pounder]

Hindsight

While these situations are easy to dissect after the fact, they happen extremely fast. When I was attacked I had gotten myself out of the attacker's hold and covered about 100 yards and 3 flights of stairs before I fully understood what was happening and dialed 911. This was years ago before I started carrying, and luckily my wife wasn't with me. I'm sure the OP was thinking more about his wife and grandson than force options, whether he wanted to or not. Without practice and training to get your mind into the "tactical" (I hate that word) mindset, you tend to focus on what is most important to you.

I also want to address beatcop's comment about shooting an unarmed person. You have no idea if he is closing distance to stab you, shoot you, or give you a kiss. You can't assume that just because you don't see a gun or knife he is unarmed. That would be a big mistake in my opinion. You don't walk into a crack house with your pistol holstered because you haven't verified that the drug dealers are armed yet.

To the OP: Good job making the best of a tough situation.
-Polish

 

[uh-oh]

If you live in a "stand-your-ground state" (VA isn't ...yet) you have no duty to retreat, though it would look pretty bad if you shot him because he attacked you because you mad a smart-aleck remark with the intention of having him hear you.

There is nothing illegal about making smart-aleck remarks, and there is no justification for attacking a person for saying something smart-aleck to you. Nothing you can say, short of "give me your wallet", is justification for violence.

Making a smart-aleck remark IS illegal in a "duty to retreat" state because it escalates a confrontation.

To the OP, if the situation arises again (and hopefully it won't), retreat to a safe distance if you choose and call the police because you were just assaulted. Make sure you can get an ID of the guy if he happens to leave, and his license plate or a description of whatever means of transportation he took to get there. Sure, we might appear wimpy and bad guys would think they won (who cares anyway?), but until every state becomes "stand your ground", some of we must back down. I wasn't trying to deride the OP's actions, simply state some helpful things I've picked up along the way. I may be young, but I pay attention.

 

[Iheartguns]

You are blaming yourself for the other person's unwarranted violence. Do you realize that?

Absolutely. Both the OP and I (and several others) realize that the "parting-shot" was what triggered the potentially violent reaction. Had he just swallowed hard and walked away there might not have even been a need to post.

Was the violent reaction unwarrented - absolutely, 100%. I think we agree on that.

Did the OP escalate it? Having been in very similar, testosterone infused situations, yes, I think he did. In a very flip, off the cuff comment, I have turned what should have been an insignificant run-in with an idiotic, white trash redneck with an axe to grind, into a major verbal and almost physical altercation. I had the opportunity to be the mature adult. I failed at being mature and got the last word in - something about Dale Earnhardt to make my buddies laugh. Next thing I know, this guy is in my face. Had I just kept my fool mouth shut and walked away, I wouldn't have had a blood pressure spike. I think that was my fault. I can't control the guy being an *******, but that doesn't mean I have to feed the *******. You know?

 

[expvideo]

I think we're just going to have to respectfully disagree here.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

The first thing that strikes me about your narrative, is that your wife's decision to interpose between you and the other person either means she read the situation quite differently than what you describe or she was more concerned for the bad guy's safety than her own. Either way the two of you have much to discuss.

While others have stated this truth albeit less succinctly, it is neither safe nor effective to try to "educate" strangers who violate social mores. Words to live by whether driving a car or carrying a gun.

You do not state much about the build and appearance of the other person. I myself would not reach for a gun unless I believed a potential attacker had the means to cause me great bodily harm. Age, height, weight, apparent athleticism all play into this, as does my assessment as to whether or not the other individual is armed and likely to bring arms to bear.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

-not sure I understand the "and know they're not going to get arrested" part.

I think the point here is that, in the aftermath of a typical fistfight where none of the people involved are police, all participants will be arrested and charged. While convictions are not inevitable, they are common and self-defense is rarely an effective defense especially for the party that prevails in the fight. Part of this is due to the very human temptation to land blows after there is no longer a threat. The legal landscape is complicated by the fact that level of the charges and prosecutive interest both increase when one of the parties is armed.

Conversely, prosecutors would tend to give the benefit of the doubt to a sworn officer in the same situation.

 

[Little_Bigman]

Like it or not, people these days are self-centered, rude, mean and in a lot of cases much more prone to violence than previously. My wife says " It's not that they don't know, they simply don't care."

These days you do have to becareful what you say to strangers, because you don't know when they're going to snap.

Now I admit that being a product of very small town America this is mostly an academic exercise for me, But if we go to "town" (I'm talking driving halfway across the state to an actual city) I tend to be very much on my guard against confrontation and am more than willing to concede and backdown when the city folk get nasty.

Like I said earlier, I'm not going to change their out look and no matter what I say they're going to be right and justified in their eyes, so what's the point?

 

[CoRoMo]

My wife was offended and said something about how our grandson wasn’t doing anything wrong. I said (admittedly loud enough for him to hear) that...

IMHO, I think this is the primary mistake made. Had these comments not been made, we wouldn't be typing in this thread today (theoretically). The OP acknowledges this and it would be amazing if anyone disputed that, but then again there is always someone here willing to beat their chest.

I can't recall, ever, having such an encounter as this, where I even came close to a physical confrontation with another person (excluding my school aged years). I'm extremely mild mannered. Everything, and I mean everything rolls off my back like water off a duck's, and I truly believe this attitude has kept me out of this type crap.

 

[Krazeehorse]

CoRoMo got it right. 'you watch your dog' gets a 'you watch your kid' response. You communicated your thoughts. He was a jerk and instead of apologizing he had to get in a parting shot. The wife's response turned it into an argument. I tend to use sarcasm a lot. If I HAD to say something I might have apologized for my grandson bothering their puppy and seen if the dumbarse got it. But now that I carry I am much better at keeping my mouth shut.

 

[rainbowbob]

If I HAD to say something I might have apologized for my grandson bothering their puppy and seen if the dumbarse got it.

If I should have said anything - I gotta like that.

It aint easy, but I think the lesson for me is to swallow it all and talk about what a jerk this guy was on our way to the beach. Out of his hearing. Out of his crappy life. And on with our happy blessed ones...

 

[Iheartguns]

And on with our happy blessed ones...

You got that right!

 

[conw]

expvideo,

There is nothing illegal about making smart-aleck remarks, and there is no justification for attacking a person for saying something smart-aleck to you. Nothing you can say, short of "give me your wallet", is justification for violence.

While uh-oh oversimplified the issue in his most recent post, there actually is something known as the "higher standard of care" gun owners are expected to adhere to. In other words, you are showing some degree of premeditation toward lethal force (or even malice aforethought) if you escalate (EVEN SLIGHTLY) a situation that could end up with you using the gun.

...Period. And you know, it makes sense, too.

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

Everything has an origin. Seeing him not profusely apologize for his dog potentially hurting your grandson is the proverbial red flag. There's a reason he doesn't care. No concern for others.

Ask the man "Can you control your dog, please?" When he says no, you know he is unreasonable, and you don't need to know anything more to know you need to silently leave. Whether you want to report him is a choice, but you're not the police and can't expect to fix anything.

 

[saturno_v]

My thoughts on this...

I been involved in fights in my youth..while not being exactly an hot tempered person I had and I have little tolerance for prevarication and bullying.

I did "calm down" with maturity and age, of course...however after becoming a CC holder I really put away any "situational pride" that can arise from situations like the one the OP narrated.

In simple words.

If I see a situation getting hairy, I walk away even sooner than before I became a CC holder.

If I walk in a rough neighbourhood and I see some "unconvincing" individuals walking toward me in the same sidewalk, I change direction..actually I try my best to avoid such parts of town altogether.

In a bank robbery, I would mind my own business.

I would draw my weapon ony and only if I feel threatened with lethal force or serious physical injury....my dad once told me: If you are not a criminal or a police officer, when you take the step of drawing your gun is because you are really cornered and you need to use it, so use it".
Well I would not go to that extreme line of reasoning, however, I will try all the possible ways to defuse a situation or not getting involved at all....

If I were in the same situation of the OP, I would not have said a thing and just walked away...pride or making a point be damned... so I agree with his analysis the he bears some responsability for escalating the confrontation (the verbal remarks)

As CC holder we have the means of ending very quickly someone's else life....I would have walked away in that dog park with the mindset that I did actually a favour to the poor short tempered idiot because he did not know what he was getting into if he wanted to escalate to a serious harmful physical confrontation, probably I was saving his life.

Probably the jerk saw a middle aged man with wife and grandson and he had absolutely no idea you had a .357 snubnose in your pocket so he thought he could be a macho and satisfy his repressed agner at you if you let him..some peopel are liek that, they look at every occasion to pick up a fight...

CC made me more chicken "on the surface"...trying my best to walk away.

A question for the experts...If I'm cornered by more than one person or the individual(s) is/are armed with a baseball bat or a knife or a car jack or whatever other than firearms with the clear intent of using it to physically harm me, am I entitled to draw my gun or at least warn the opponents to step back because I carry a gun??? Could they try to sue me for brandishing or threatening use of lethal force??

Regards

 

[saturno_v]

Everything has an origin. Seeing him not profusely apologize for his dog potentially hurting your grandson is the proverbial red flag. There's a reason he doesn't care. No concern for others.

Ask the man "Can you control your dog, please?" When he says no, you know he is unreasonable, and you don't need to know anything more to know you need to silently leave. Whether you want to report him is a choice, but you're not the police and can't expect to fix anything.

I agree 100%

 

[beatcop]

OP, you did ok...you're here in one piece.

As you can see, opinions vary. Hopefully you won't have many more of these situations, but I bet it was a learning experience!

You're going to get a few answers to these scenarios, textbook, what works, and bad info. They each have their inherent risks...the textbook may be that you should fist fight, the "what works" may be brandishing, and the "bad advice" may be to shoot all oncoming threats. Your choice...

Regardless of your personal choices, the idea of working the scenario over in your brain and coming up with an immediate response is the back bone of training. The ability to recognize "key factors" and have a preprogrammed response will cut your reaction time and help you make good decisions under stress.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

there is also that thing that happens when a lady says something that some genius thinks offends him and he decides to get in the man with hers face over it. that can produce very bad results for the guy. i've had a couple g/f's that were good at getting me in jackpots. unintentionally or otherwise some women take advantage of the "don't hit a women " thing and will say more than a man would.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

1/2 joking but if wife wants to say something how about "darn it if you do another 10 years in the joint for killing this one i won't be waiting for you! gosh darn it!" a friends wife did one like that when her 60 something husband bucked up in the face of two 20 something boys.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It's pretty much a stretch for anyone to try and be a walking Miss (Mr.?) Manners, and carry a gun at the same time. So far I can't recall seeing anyone here mentioning anything about just picking up the kid out of the puppy's reach, and moving on elsewhere without saying anything. I think in a similar situation that's what I'd be likely to do- I don't know, not having either grandkids or dog parks to deal with.

Alternatives to firearms are always a good idea to have available when carrying IMHO- pepper spray, for example. Grandfathers can get away with using a good solid cane/walking stick, too. And cell phones shouldn't be overlooked either.

Main thing is, everyone walked. You did fine... and using the situation as a learning experience is a definite plus.

lpl

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Quote:
That being said, I agree that shooting someone rather than taking a punch is a great way to land yourself in prison. I also personally think that unless there is a huge disparity of force, it is really chicken**it of a person to pull a gun rather than take a punch.
This is a very dangerous mindset to have, especially if you carry. You have no idea what background your potential threat has. He could be a trained boxer. Even if he wasn't a trained fighter, one (lucky or deliberate) punch is all it needs to completely reverse the flow of the fight or end it altogether.

Let's go with the worst case scenario, with a punch he has you knocked out. You just lost control of your gun, let's hope he or a bystander doesn't pat you down for wallet and find your gun.

.... Or raped your wife/ girlfriend / family member
1st option - leave
2nd option protect you and yours but retain your weapon.