Lessons from a confrontation today

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A question for the experts...If I'm cornered by more than one person or the individual(s) is/are armed with a baseball bat or a knife or a car jack or whatever other than firearms with the clear intent of using it to physically harm me, am I entitled to draw my gun or at least warn the opponents to step back because I carry a gun??? Could they try to sue me for brandishing or threatening use of lethal force??
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I'm far from an expert, but a car jack, knife, or baseball bat are all as deadly (though not as fast acting) as a fire arm. If you are truly cornered by one or more individuals armed with blunt or edged weapons and they have the "clear intent of using it to physically harm you," SHOOT your way out. There is no time to verbally warn them, although you probably screwed up at some point to get yourself in the situation.

As far as multiple individuals who are unarmed but clearly intend to harm you, that has more to do with your frailty or strength compared to theirs, and also how you got yourself into that situation. I would strongly consider drawing if three unknown, threatening individuals were all closing in on me.
 
I have been bringing my dog to this particular park for the last 9 years. My experience is that, for the most part, they are frequented by the best owners with the best dogs. Good owners like to get their good dogs out for exercise and socialization. The problem dogs, almost always accompanied by the problem owners, don't last long.
 
I rest my case.

Just kidding...glad to hear your park is better than most. A walking stick is never a bad idea at those places, plus knowledge on how to stop a dog fight (pull the aggressor's back legs back, like a wheelbarrow, and DON'T let go)
 
A walking stick is never a bad idea at those places, plus knowledge on how to stop a dog fight (pull the aggressor's back legs back, like a wheelbarrow, and DON'T let go)
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A stick is a good idea. I'd never heard about the "wheelbarrow hold". Does it really work? What if they turn around and start biting YOU?
 
My suggestion would be to deal with the puppy. The owner my not do anything.

The other day at the park I caught two spoiled brats, about 5 and 7 years old, throwing wood chips at my two year old girl. She was just watching them play, and did not even realize that the jerks were trying to hit her. I shouted at them to stop, hoping that one of their parents would call their attention, but no one took ownership of the brats. So I grabbed the arm of one and shook it until he dropped the chips, then pushed him aside. He immediately went to his parents, who watched the whole episode, but again, did not take ownership of their kids.

If I had confronted them, perhaps they would have gotten on the defensive.
 
So I grabbed the arm of one and shook it until he dropped the chips, then pushed him aside.
... If I had confronted them, perhaps they would have gotten on the defensive
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And perhaps they'd of had you arrested for battery. Grabbing another person's child ( except to save life,limb or eyesight) is never advisable.

I think in the OP's place I would have just left. Correcting other people's behavior in public never seems to go well.
 
Doubtful Rockwell1! It's been my experience that lazy parents, like lazy dog owners, don't really do much for their kids. Now, don't get me wrong. I did not hurt the kid or anything. I just made him throw away the handful of chips he was about to throw at my daughter for a second time.

Afterward, I felt bad for the kid. Not for what I did to him, but because the kid went back to his parents and they just ignored him.

My point to all this is that if the Op had just flicked the puppy on the nose, the puppy would have retreated, the owner might not have done anything, and whole situation avoided before it began. Hind site is 20-20. The good thing is the OP did not draw and the situation finished without physical violence.
 
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Interesting thread. Appreciate the OP posting it.

I read the first page and skimmed the rest. Maybe it's been covered, but I guess the question I would be asking myself if I were the OP is this:

Would my behavior (and comments) been any different at all had I NOT been carrying?

I too take offense at rude, boorish behavior. But over time have become less likely to call people on it, even if they are contravening "posted" rules. Rather, I look for an opportunity to disengage. This seems especially necessary if one's main (only?) response option is a firearm.

To be sure, I can envision an escalating scenario (BG brandishing weapon, BG's buddies ganging up on OP, etc.) here that could end in a justified shooting. But that wouldn't take away from the fact that it all started over a puppy playing with a kid...
 
gallo: "My suggestion would be to deal with the puppy. The owner my not do anything."

That's what I would have done, and I said so above, but my posts were deleted. I won't repeat what I said I would do, as it was deleted once already. Let's just say I have zero tolerance for loose dogs, for good and sufficient reason. If the owner doesn't like what I'd do, too bad for him.
 
Expvideo said earlier:
"That being said, I agree that shooting someone rather than taking a punch is a great way to land yourself in prison. I also personally think that unless there is a huge disparity of force, it is really chicken**it of a person to pull a gun rather than take a punch. I would say cowardly, but that word doesn't seem to pack as much punch any more. Anyway, long story short, there are very few cases where it is ok to shoot an unarmed person. If it isn't ok to shoot them, it isn't ok to pull a gun.
To the OP, it sounds like a scary situation. I think you did a good job in breaking it down and learning from it after the fact."
The rules are much different when you are violently confronted and have a child in your arms or attached to your body.
There is no opportunity to resolve a violent situation if you have a toddler on your shoulders or a 1 year old in your arms.
 
I certainly agree with those who institute avoidance and retreat as the first alternatives. But it is situations like this that have led me to the opinion that anyone who carries a firearm for personal defense should also carry a non-lethal weapon. My choice is OC spray. It is light, compact, inexpensive, and may allow you to adequately defend yourself while keeping your arse out of prison.
 
Defence Minister: "But it is situations like this that have led me to the opinion that anyone who carries a firearm for personal defense should also carry a non-lethal weapon."

This is mostly illegal in my state. Concealed firearms, even concealed Class III, are perfectly legal with the shall-issue permit. But concealed knives are controlled, as are other concealed weapons. However, it is possible to carry certain ordinary household items usable as defensive weapons. It's a gray area.
 
rainbowbob: "I suspect they were deleted because your suggestions for dealing with the puppy sounded borderline psychotic, and were definitely NOT High Road."

I suspect you've never been disfigured by animal attack as a child.
 
Admittedly my understanding of Virginia's laws are somewhat limited as I have not been CC'ing long. But...

In VA:
1. If you did play a role in escalation, then it is difficult to subsequently claim self-defense.
2. If you did play a role in escalation, but you subsequently retreat and disengage, then it can become easier to claim self-defense. Basically any role in escalation means you have an increased responsibility to retreat.

As I am in very poor shape and have 3 minor children to worry about, my opportunities for a fast retreat can be somewhat limited. Therefore, I make an even bigger effort to avoid, apologize, deescalate, and retreat slowly.

But in whatever state you are in, and no matter what the "Stand Your Ground / Castle" laws are in your state, it is my belief that any time you show your gun, draw your gun, or fire your gun, you place yourself in legal jeopardy. If this situation had continued to deteriorate and shots became necessary, the BG's girlfriend would doubtless claim you were the aggressor he was totally innocent. Other people in the park may not have even been paying attention and probably are not going to be helpful. Maybe you will prevail legally, maybe not. Heck he might even have a gun also. Do you really wan't a full gun battle? What if he is that one in a million "bad cop"? Who is going to be believed? You or this dedicated servant of the people? Wouldn't that make great evening news "Decorated Police Officer Viciously Gunned Down By Crazy Concealed Permit Holder in Dog Park"

Generally a bully (human or animal) has the objective to intimidate and dominate not actually engage in a physical altercation. Your objective is (or should be) to get you and yours home safely. Against a bully, submissiveness is very strategic. Think of it as the ultimate "concealment". Tactics win the battle. Strategy wins the war.

That having been said, I do like the idea someone else had of the wife basically screaming, "Please God, Don't Kill Another One." Not flashing or threatening exactly. LMFAO.

Note:

Against a criminal or predatory animal, submissiveness may have exactly the opposite result. A predator's objective isn't domination, it's dinner, you being dinner. Your objective remains the same, getting home safe. A more assertive stance may have deterrent value. Telling the difference between a bully and a predator could be problematic. It is my belief that most predators are ambush predators, while most bullies are social/situational.

Just my humble opinion. Please feel free to disregard.

Oh, by the way, responding violently to an overly excited puppy may be barely tolerable in your own yard or on the street, but in a dog park it really is over the line. You are asking for some real legal problems if nothing else.

Sorry for the long post.

It may be better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but hell I'd rather just walk away.
 
I havent read the other replies before posting this. I will do so afterwards. Sounds to me that your wife did exactly what my wife would have done. The reason I believe my wife would and your wife did is that they want to stop an escalating situation. It also appears that was sucessful, although there were two hot headed males with their dander up, there was no harm no foul. That is definetly the desired results in these situations. Guy was a jerk, no doubt. Maybe a thug or just thought he was a badass. Reality is, you may not have been the only one with a gun. Saying that you would have walked away, is absolutely the right response. Doing it is another thing entirely which leads me back to the wife jumping in...my wife knows that I have lived my life not backing down. She knows me as a guy that doesnt take crap from anyone. She has seen it live. I like to think that I would have walked away also but I know that I wouldnt have drawn on this guy unless I feared for my families safety. I imagine what I might have done if he rushed me was drawn without pointing but at the ready with a verbal warning. These kinds of incidents are all too common and basically stupid. You didnt help the matter with your comments. Try to do what I am trying to do. Be kinder, gentler but unafraid and ready. Maybe you should thank your wife, I know I would have.
Glad it worked out with nothing but feelings hurt.


ETA: Chances are that in this scenario, I would probably be open carrying since it is legal in my state and it is my policy to do so on these kind of family outings as I feel it is a definite deterrent to exactly this scenario. So if I was open carrying I would not have drawn but made it clear to this fellow that I dont play that.
 
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Rainbow Bob,

The funny/cool thing about the wheelbarrow tactic is that, unless we're talking about a lap dog, dogs are too long to immediately turn around and bite you...they have to walk themselves laterally on two paws in order to do so, and you (being more adept at two-legged walking, and holding onto two of their legs) have ample opportunity to move right if they're trying to bite your left side, for example. The idea is just to stay behind the dog.

If I were witnessing a serious dog fight and trying to stop it, I'd grab hard as heck on the aggressor's back legs and run backward.
 
Well, I'm no expert - I got a dog recently and before and after doing so made it a point to read everything I could. (This is still semi on-topic because knowing proper methods of controlling dogs is a big safety plus)

As far as I know, if one of the dogs is yours chances are it needs more exercise and more structure. If my dog were hard to deal with I'd feed him once per day after an hour walk, and only give him any other attention whatsoever when he was on his best behavior. I actually have a backpack that I put weights in (9lb total, 55lb puppy) for walks to drain the dog even more. You'd be amazed how much a good bout of exercise balances a dog. My philosophy is, exercise THEN training/discipline (if at all - I'm talking basic stuff here) THEN food THEN affection...the dog will respect you much more and be less excitable. My dog is a Boxer, a breed known for being rambunctious and energetic, but I keep him totally calm using this method.

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As far as two dogs with no clear aggressor...if they both belong to you, do the above things to them and withhold attention for bad behavior and reward good behavior with treats; if only one belongs to you, just keep it away from other aggressive dogs; and if possible have another person help out with the wheelbarrow thing. I think there is some type of harness available with a big handle on it to grab your dog easily, you might want to check a Petsmart type place for that type of thing. A friend got a "Gentle leader" lead that seems to control her dog much better than a regular collar. I just keep my collar nice and high, just below the ears, and don't let my dog around any dogs, other than my parents' and one particular neighbor's.
 
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