Paintball as a training aid?

[jackdanson]

I've been shooting regularly for about a year now and I've been playing paintball for about 3 years and I was wondering about what all you guys though about using this as a training aid.

While obviously at the range paintball skills don't really transfer over (an ar-15 operates completely differently than a paintball marker-recoil, etc) I would think that in a real world situation the things I've picked up in paintball regarding angles and such would be very helpful. As an example, I always see pictures of trainers in gun magazines (even the usmc rifleman book) setting there firearm around a corner or on top of a ledge that they are using for cover. From paintball I know this is foolish, it takes substantially longer to get back in cover if you have to snap back behind something because you have to wrestle the weapon back. It is better to stand further back and expose the minimal amount possible of yourself. The given scenario is hard to describe without pictures.

Don't know what anyone thinks of this, maybe I'm dumb, guns are substantially more accurate than paintball markers. I do know that my friends and I were asked to play against a group of marines and we wholloped them, despite having a team half the size of theirs. They were very concerned with setting up cover zones etc, but we would simply snap out, fire a shot (they couldn't get back behind cover fast enough) and snap back in. There pride was hurt to say the least!! (they were cheating like hell by the end of the day!)

 

[buck00]

Paintball can provide limited practice of small unit tactics- fire and movement, ambushes, coordinating attacks, etc... but obviously a paintball marker is not the same as a rifle in terms of distances or effects.

That is all I will say, I'll let other chime in about airsoft, MILES gear, etc.

 

[PPGMD]

There are paintball guns that act similarly to M-4s, that could be useful for training purposes, but only for tactics, and with others, on both teams, that have a similar goal. Even then it would be under the watchful eye of instructors, or extensively video taped for AAR.

The Army has a paintball system that they train with.

 

[mr.trooper]

Yea.

Paitball / Airsoft are useful for acquainting yourself with team dynamics, but thats about it.

The problem with using them as a firearms training aid are thus:

* They don't recoil
* They don't have muzzle flash or smoke
* They have ridiculously high ammunition capacity
* They can only reach distant targets if you use them as a mortar
* They are inaccurate even within their effective range
* They have trouble penetrating cardboard

Basically, they won't teach you how to use cover effectively, they wont teach you how to shoot effectively, and they wont teach you to reload under pressure.

 

[t3rmin]

But dang if it ain't fun, eh? ;-)

 

[MrPeter]

you say they were cheating by the end of the day? How do you cheat at Paintball? Are there cheatcodes I'm not aware of? Maybe an offsides start, or not going 'out' when you're tagged..? Maybe thats what you mean?

Paintball, the way I play it, has very little practical use in training for a real firefight. Paintball has some key differences that I think hinder its effectiveness in training:

1) Ranges: I have found that when playing paintball, in order to get close enough to hit someone even somewhat reliably, you have to get fairly close. This could also be because I play in the woods, where there is cover EVERYWHERE. This issue also is contrubuted to by issue 2.

2) Cover: Cover for live fire is not the same as cover for a paintball. You can hide behind a bare bush that consists of twigs jutting out every which way, or leafy vegetation. If the ball doesn't break on you, it didn't hit you. This leads to a very unrealistic and potentially dangerous perception of "cover is everywhere, I'll be fine nomatter where I am, I can mostly just hit the deck." Again, this is not so much the case in a conrolled field. I play in the woods.

3) Ammunition/CO2/Air conservation: It's not that often that you'll be in a firefight with a semi-auto belt-fed submachine gun, so a paintball marker with a 200 round hopper is not going to teach you to conserve ammunition.

However, paintball does have one (probably more, but my favorite) upside; it hurts. Unlike other forms of attempted training available to the everyday Joe Shmoe, such as lasertag, FPS games, or airsoft (arguably), paintball hurts. I'm not whining or nothing, as I actually think it's sort of neat to have welts all over your body from 'battle' . But the pain involved with the game makes one very important difference other than the obvious, and that is that instictually, you don't want to get shot. In all aforementioned games that may supposedly help you get some tactics down, certain strategies, such as suppresive fire, cover fire, or first shot/element of surprise are meaningless. If you shoot me, I'll just shoot you back! I learned this the hard way.

There's my 2 cents.

 

[Zoogster]

Yea.

Paitball / Airsoft are useful for acquainting yourself with team dynamics, but thats about it.

The problem with using them as a firearms training aid are thus:

* They don't recoil
* They don't have muzzle flash or smoke
* They have ridiculously high ammunition capacity
* They can only reach distant targets if you use them as a mortar
* They are inaccurate even within their effective range
* They have trouble penetrating cardboard

Basically, they won't teach you how to use cover effectively, they wont teach you how to shoot effectively, and they wont teach you to reload under pressure.

Covered fairly well. You can hide behind just about anything in paintball and exchange shots, but in real life only a few things provide such cover, and most things are little different than being out in the open against someone that knows where you are.
Ranges, trajectory, and timing are also very different. You can't dodge a bullet, but you can dodge a paintball if your fast.

The report of firearms is also often neglected. Most people will be practicly deaf for the duration of a firefight that only lasts a short time. You don't get to put in your hearing protection before engaging.

Paintball tactics seem to include people running around and pulling the trigger in the fastest way physicaly possible. The point of impact is never changed by recoil, and it is practicly spray and pray.

Team tactics as related to firearms will only be developed if that is the goal of those playing, because such tactics are not necessary in paintball.
So it can be a helpful force on force training aid if everyone playing is pretending they really are firearms. Learning to travel in various formations, control fields of fire, provide suppression and move in a coordinated effort while under fire etc
If only you are though, it won't provide much as most of the individual firearm skills are not practiced. So if the goal is firearm training and not team work training there is little to gain.



As it relates to military teamwork training it is also lacking other key components. Against a modern military any group that is highly visible from the air, satelite or to other ground forces will find themselves subject to an air strike or artillery in short order if they don't blend in.
As it relates to insurgent tactics (or even police vs criminals) it is also lacking in that regard, as any group that does not get away really fast or allows themselves to be pinned down will never get away. If you are on the side with reinforcements coming it can be better to pin down and not rush a conclusion that puts you on equal footing, because the longer you keep the enemy pinned down the more of an advantage you have as reinforcements arrive and you can cover more fields of fire.

So there is a balance between cover and mobility when you or the enemy has reinforcements coming, and that balance changes throughout an engagement.
The side with reinforcements will gain superior coverage and fields of fire the longer the battle lasts or a stalemate exists even when artillery and airstrikes or other infantry explosives/ should fired weapons are not involved.
Grenades of various types, teargas, and similar things are also very important in such tactics as they provide cover and allow attacks from beyond line of sight giving great flexibility in fluid movement, and missing from most simulated training.

So all around it is missing a great deal of variables for both civilian and military training and tactics even as it relates to teamwork (the only thing it helps with.)

 

[mekender]

paintball is fun but i have one problem with using it as a training aid...

you have no hesitations about running toward someone that is shooting at you and vice versa with a paintball gun... sure it hurts, but there are no lasting consequences if you get hit... and therefore youll find people will get all rambo on the paintball field...ive seen these people completely freeze up when challenged to a fistfight...

 

[MIL-DOT]

After a couple years of regular sunday paintball games,on a dozen or so acres in Georgia with anywhere from 10-20+ players, i feel that i got better, more intense, small arms combat experience than i ever got in 3 years in the (peacetime) Marine Corps.I'm not kidding at all. These were hard-charging,aggressive,fast and serious WAR-GAMES !! I still inist that a good day of woods-ball was the most fun i've ever had recreationally, eclipsing even skydiving and cave diving.
Whenever my brother and i run into some of the old gang,though we haven't played in a couple years, they also say they also haven't sold their gear, just
in case they get that call !!!!

 

[M47 Dragon]

After a couple years of regular sunday paintball games,on a dozen or so acres in Georgia with anywhere from 10-20+ players, i feel that i got better, more intense, small arms combat experience than i ever got in 3 years in the (peacetime) Marine Corps.I'm not kidding at all.

I have to ask... did your MOS have an 03 as the first two digits?

 

[tblt]

I paintball once a month and love it but it does not help you shoot.I'm might help if you go to war or somthing like that.

 

[Funderb]

I wasn't aware that tactics weren't important in paintball.
geeze. now we can go back to the old civil war style and stand up and shoot at eachother.

you are kidding right? Tactics are the epicenter of paintball, you have to make up for low range and poor accuracy somehow.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Not looking for an fight,or anything, but i can't help tossing in a couple counter-points to MrPeters above post:
First: yeah,you have to be ralatively "close", but so does the other guy, it's not like you're using a crossbow, and the enemy has a Steyr SSG ! Also, a quality gun,with quality paint, and a tank that's not on it's last breath, plus a high-end long-range barrel, like a Tippmann Flatline,and you're covering some pretty respectable distance.
Two: I've found out the hard way,TOO MANY TIMES, that a bush AIN'T cover !!
Three:" a 200 round hopper isn't going to teach you to conserve ammunition".Really?
With 'ONLY' 200 rounds, that's EXACTLY what it's going to teach you. I've had to bum rounds in a firefight, or split what i had with someone,or dodge through fire to bring someone ammo, more times than i can count. We used to berate each other before games "DON'T spray and pray, conserve ammo !!! " Not to mention, we were paying $40+ for a case that would barely last a single Sunday.That'll teach conservation better than anything !!
Four : " how do you cheat at paintball" ?? Seriously, have you really played ? I don't even need to start in on that one.
And finally, no one's claiming paintball experience is on par with a genuine live-fire battle, but it is, as the OP said, a decent "training aid", and to my mind,even more.

P.S. Why,as a matter of fact,my MOS did have an 03 in it, 0351, to be exact.........AKA "dragon" gunner !! LOL !

 

[plexreticle]

Shooting a human targets with paintballs is better training than shooting at paper with lead. imho

 

[MIL-DOT]

(quote) "Shooting a human targets with paintballs is better training than shooting at paper with lead. imho".

True dat,Yo !!

 

[Ske1etor]

Play real paintball, not rec ball with rental markers and mil-sim and we can talk paintball.

I played on a national tournament team for 4 seasons. It teaches teamwork, situational awareness, the ability to keep your head up and perform menial tasks (Like pulling a magazine out of your mag holder and reloading... yep, could do it the first time I tried it because I had 4 years of loading a paintball marker without looking...) It is all about hand/eye coordination, paying attention, angles, keeping count of the guys on your side and where they are at and keeping count of the bad guys and where they are at.

The basis is the same. You are firing a projectile attempting to hit another person. This is a better training aid in my opinion than shooting at paper targets or a dummy on a robot...

 

[BullfrogKen]

Paintball? Maybe.


Good force on force training. Better.


Paintball is fun, but its just a game.

 

[BlackJackal]

Ive been playing paintball for about 5 years and i believe that it will help/teach you about tactics, flanking, team work, using the surrondings to your advantage. sure the guns arnt as accurate, but in CQC they are all the accuratcy u need, i believe now that once i join the military and if i go into a combat zone, paintball will improve my chances of surviving. i can play many games without recieving anything that would be conciterd a "life threatning injury".. Just my thoughts...And a big plus for its a really fun game ...

 

[hockeybum]

eh, i used to play paintball a lot. it was really fast paced. don't think it would work to well as a training aid. airsoft works a lot better if you ask me, but the only difficulty is that the game is based on the honor system.
actually, i was playing paintball once against some marines ; one guy had been to iraq twice and was training with a couple of guys, this would be his third time going back and the other guys' first time. they played a lot of round with us and they just could not win until the last game of the night. they came together as a team and they beat all of us. so i guess it did help them to some extent.

 

[Match14]

When I played paintball my favorite was ambush and patrol at the gravel pit. It was about a mile long road, with various types of terrian and vehicles. We would have 5 or 6 of the more experienced players set up an ambush at any point along the road. The patrol usually had 12-20 people, but had to march along the road until the enemy was spotted or contact made. It made me learn enough to not want to do that in real life thats for sure.
Also you can increase the accuracy of a paintball marker by getting a longer barrel.
Also you can get smaller size pods to, I knew someone who had a 10 round pod, and have seen 30 round ones at the store before.

 

[MIL-DOT]

(quote)"Paintball is fun, but its just a game."

Yeah,no kidding....So is a 30 day life-fire CAX (combined-arms-excersize) at 29 Palms. I think some here are missing the point. No one has said paintball is as good as, or a substitute for, combat experience. As already stated,it can be a useful TRAINING AID,as can a next-to-useles miles gear excersize, hunkering down in a foxhole with a mag full of blanks,trading MRE deserts.
Again, i think everyone fully realizes a paintball "campaign" ain't like being at the "Frozen Chosin", but a good woodsball game easily meets any realistic standard for a combat simulation.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Paintball, as normally practiced, has very, very limited value (if any at all) as a force on force exercise.

There are a lot of reasons why, but the main reason is that each paintballer worth his salt is walking around with the equivalent of a belt fed fully automatic gun and 800+ rounds of ammunition.

As a result, the most successful tactics fully exploit these facts, and are thus fully dependent upon them.

The reality is that if any of us ever get into a gunfight, the statistically probable gunfight will be 2-3 rounds discharged from a light carry gun in low light at a range of 5 feet.

 

[inherentical]

There are a lot of reasons why, but the main reason is that each paintballer worth his salt is walking around with the equivalent of a belt fed fully automatic gun and 800+ rounds of ammunition.

As a result, the most successful tactics fully exploit these facts, and are thus fully dependent upon them.

Seems about equivalent to the combat experience of plenty of Jarheads I know.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that force on force excercises are a good subsitute for actual combat experience.

 

[Zoogster]

The reality is that if any of us ever get into a gunfight, the statistically probable gunfight will be 2-3 rounds discharged from a light carry gun in low light at a range of 5 feet.

Well exactly, and as I was stating in my previous post, the only thing it can be any good for is practicing teamwork and only to some extent if that is the goal of those involved.

For personal self defense 1v1 it is next to worthless because the primary skills there involve personal use of the firearm, and there is no team.
Paintball obviously does not hone firearm skills like practice with a firearm does, it can only help with teamwork skills.
So if the primary training aid paintball provides relates to teamwork not firearms skills, and self defense as practiced by most civilians is as a solo individual then there is little relevant skill not better realized with another activity.
That is why I did not even bother to criticize it for that purpose in my previous post like I did with its use involving team related tactics, because it has no relevance to solo applications at all.

Many seem to be jumping in defending the activity.
Paintball is a challenging sport, criticism of its usefulness as a training aid is not criticism of it as a fun recreational activity.

 

[Ske1etor]

There are a lot of reasons why, but the main reason is that each paintballer worth his salt is walking around with the equivalent of a belt fed fully automatic gun and 800+ rounds of ammunition.

Absolutely not. The only people on the field with huge packs of paint strapped on are the guys in the back whos job it is to just spray paint. Also, that is only in speedball/airball.

There are also stock marker games and they are quite popular. mostly pump guns, 10 or 12 round tubes (The tubes attach directly to the marker and once it is out you have to reload).

You are only thinking of one type of paintball. There are hundreds, if not thousands of types of games to be played with paintball equipment.

Look up information on a scenario game. Go purchase a cheap marker, a CO2 tank and sign up. You will be surprised how much your heart starts racing when you get shot in the back at night by a guy in a ghillie suit and night vision goggles. Pyro is set off to simulate mortars and other random explosions, ultralight aircrafts are flying over strafing battlefields and tanks roll down roads taking out hordes of enemy players....

Its totally not what you think it is.