Paintball as a training aid?

[plexreticle]

How is it you know about the tactics, training, and responses of SWAT Teams to be knowledgeable enough to say their tactics will get them "massacred"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmYe_lW7kRA Didn't' work out too well for these guys.

I shared with you when I played paint ball. Where and when was your last Force on Force scenario? How is it you know enough to be competent to denigrate the value of FoF training?

When did I denigrate the value of FoF training? I said it's a game if your not using real ammo and pretending you're in a gunfight. Are you trying to say FoF training is the same as a real firefight where people get killed? I said Pretend = game = FoF, I never said paintball is better than FoF for anything. That's your hangup reading into my comments.

 

[sm]

Training?

Training for what?

Training for getting shot?

Or ducking slow?

Or thinking that you're really bulletproof?

Reality.

Ken, Jeff White, Lee Lapin, have cautioned me in how I reply in posts.
I am one that is very familiar with some criminals, many will encounter in life, and one that is targeted by such criminals
They will edit if need be to watch my six.
So I will reply, if folks accept, I cannot give details.


Professional Thugs had me in mind, instead by me employing some strategy and tactics, as I did/ do, as a part of how I carried myself, I was not.
I am a pain in the butt to pin down it was/is said of me.

So their second choice, was someone I knew, same industry.
The kidnapped his wife and kid at home.
They overpowered him, and he rode in the trunk of his car for hours, until the wee hours.

They had his wife and kid, and simply because a member of their normal team, was sick, these professionals had some lesser professionals, keep tabs on the wife and kid.

He had the most sophisticate alarm system, most sophisticated walk in vaults, and safes.
They had his wife and kid and a gun to his head, all that expensive Security, was defeated.

His kid was sick, so the kid slept due to medicine, thank goodness.
The wife was repeatedly raped all this time.

He went in, turned off all alarms, and opened all them walk in vaults and safes, and then after all this large sum of mdse was taken, he was beaten and left unconscious.

My world, what raised into, and even as a baby , a target to be kidnapped to force others to give BGs what they want.

Paintball, and other things, cannot mentor, teach, prepare one for some of life's Reality.

Even LEO, and Military Training - does not full prepare one for what is really on the Streets, or in a War.

It does not have be someone like me, it can be anyone.

True.
Lady was a young, business professional.
Her business was not anything like the ones I was in.

Nice looking, she would not win any modeling contests, still attractive.
Dressed in nice business attire.
Simple jewlery, nice, but not flashy.
Her car, again nice, still not the most expensive, or popular.

Car Wash.
She went to the car wash, as she wanted a clean car before she went to see some clients.
Business minded, and a good appearance was part of her business savvy.

Inside the Car Wash, she had a nice, simple portfolio she used.
So she does what most folks do while this car wash does her car.

Keys in the car, it goes through, and folks wipe it down, do windows, vacuum...

She had been in before, like most folks do, and if one goes so many times they get a free wash.

Inside job, employee took her keys from ignition, made copies of what looked like house keys, and used the key making machine in the car wash.

State requires license and registration in glove box, so this was brought inside and copies made.

Just the normal activity one sees at a car wash - some keys being made and employees using the copy machine...

She comes home one evening, undresses, gets in the shower and two folks have used a copy of her keys to get in her house.
License and Registration provided this information to them.

She survived, she had skill sets, and she did not get sexually assaulted, or raped, or dead.

She had never played paintball, played a video game or been to a known training facility of any kind.

What she did have was some real life lessons shared with her by some real life folks - that had btdt.
Some of these were folks I had introduced her to.
What she "used" were things I was taught as a wee brat, and I am 53 yrs old now.


Currently a thread is running about a car jacking in Memphis, the 64 y/o intended target was at a gas station.
Two thugs targeted him, and one produced a shot gun.
Mr. Todd , this 64 year old gentleman stopped that threat.


Currently, we are going through the same things , that occurred in '80.
Gold is over $800 an ounce, economy is bad, gas keeps going up and other similarities.

Criminals are doing the same things they did then, now.

I remember 1980, I know very very well what all was going on as "hell, I was there" if you will.

Me and mine use[d] sick humor to stay sane.
Damn serious industry and what all we did and do.

Playing the Game is our name for what all we do.

It was not a game, as it was real folks, with real bullets, and other real skills and Hemingway expresses it well:

There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have
hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for
anything else thereafter. -Ernest Hemingway

I know about being hunted, so did my buddy and his wife , so did the lady that had been in the car wash , and I could list more.


Anyone that has keys and alarm code to a bank, branch bank, gun store, pawn shop, sells pharmacueticals...and other professions, are apt to catch the eye of criminals, many never will.
Heck they would not know these types if they were standing next to them!

How about keys to a plumbing supply, or electrical supply?
Metals have gone up, and copper is just one metal criminals want.
Again, a different criminal than droopy britches with a Jennings wanting your wallet.

Gun to head, trumps alarm systems and quality safes and vaults.

Don't sit there and tell me you would key in the "panic code" at gun point, especially if they have your wife and kid at gun point.


This is why.

 

[Jeff White]

plexreticle said;

I said it's a game if your not using real ammo and pretending you're in a gunfight.

I'm afraid I have to disagree. While nothing is a perfect simulation, properly planned, resourced and conducted force on force training can come pretty close, often producing some of the same physiological effects of stress. While not designed to be stress inoculation it often is.

Are you trying to say FoF training is the same as a real firefight where people get killed?

No, but if it's done right it can be pretty close.

I said Pretend = game = FoF,

That's where you are wrong. In a game the objective is to win. In force on force training the objective is to learn. It's better to make your mistakes on the training field then the battlefield. A run through a simulator is worthless without a properly conducted after action review and then subsequent runs until you can meet the standard for that exercise. Force on force training is not usually a large freeplay exercise where two (people, teams, units) go at it with no holds barred. A properly planned force on force scenario is focused on one or at most a few training objectives. The role players, opposing force, actors, whatever you want to call them have a job to do to facilitate the training. They may or may not be there to win. They are a training aid and they have a critical role to play in the after action review process. the selection of role players is critical. You have to have people who are mature enough to suppress their natural desire to win and play the role you designate for them.

Force on force training is much more then a game my friend.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

plexreticle said: When did I denigrate the value of FoF training? I said it's a game if your not using real ammo and pretending you're in a gunfight.

You most certainly did. I'll point you to your earlier comments.

All training is a game. Simunition and FoF is a game unless you're shooting each other with real ammo.

Unless your actually shooting each other with real bullets a training exercise is basically a game. I don't care if it's called FoF or lane training or CHL class.

Force on force training is not a gunfight. But its not pretend, make-believe, or a game either. Its an exercise, a teaching tool, designed to impart specific goals in those practicing that training.

plexreticle said: Are you trying to say FoF training is the same as a real firefight where people get killed? I said Pretend = game = FoF, I never said paintball is better than FoF for anything. That's your hangup reading into my comments.

No, sir. My hangup is not so much with your comments suggesting paint ball is a useful training model for the Armed Citizen. Although I do think that statement is ridiculous. My specific "hangup" is you believe Force on Force and Simunitions training is no better than what you do for recreation, and equate it to your game.

My "hangup" is that some here believe since a SWAT Team didn't win at their game, that their tactics suck. Implicit in that is a suggestion that those bumbling fools ought to spend some time in paintball to get better at the jobs, so that they don't "get massacred" on their next callout.


I think I've asked twice now for you to tell us how you came about to have enough knowledge of FoF training to be able to comment on its usefulness, or lack thereof, as a valid training model. Both your refusal to answer that question, and your responses on what you think of FoF is all about, tells me a lot about your experience with it.

Allow me to use a quote of yours from earlier, as it seems appropriate:

I like how people poo-poo something they probably never done.

 

[plexreticle]

No, sir. My hangup is not so much with your comments suggesting paint ball is a useful training model for the Armed Citizen. Although I do think that statement is ridiculous. My specific "hangup" is you believe Force on Force and Simunitions training is no better than what you do for recreation, and equate it to your game.

I don't play paintball btw. I have a few times in the past. When did I say your lil FoF training is = to paint ball? I said if people are not shooting real bullets at you then it's essentially a game.

My "hangup" is that some here believe since a SWAT Team didn't win at their game, that their tactics suck. Implicit in that is a suggestion that those bumbling fools ought to spend some time in paintball to get better at the jobs, so that they don't "get massacred" on their next callout.

Reading into my comments again. You sure seem defensive about your Swat thinggy. I neversaid anything about paintball training for swat.

I think I've asked twice now for you to tell us how you came about to have enough knowledge of FoF training to be able to comment on its usefulness, or lack thereof, as a valid training model. Both your refusal to answer that question, and your responses on what you think of FoF is all about, tells me a lot about your experience with it.

Never commented on FoF other than it's a game. Again you are so defensive over semantics used to describe your training that it's blinding you. If you get that upset over semantics I would hate to see how you are when the shtf. My experience with simunition (read fancy paintball) and FoF has nothing to do with the fact that real bullets are not used making it essentially a game.

You're the one making comparisons. All I said is checker, chess, MILES, simunition and FoF are a game unless someone is shooting at you with real bullets.

I get it now, you don't like your training to be called a game because it sounds too much like paintball. Is this a hang up with all the simunitions guys? I can here it now: "This isnt paintball this is serious, this equipment is used to train SWAT."

 

[Jeff White]

plexreticle said;

You're the one making comparisons. All I said is checker, chess, MILES, simunition and FoF are a game unless someone is shooting at you with real bullets.

What do you know about being shot at with real bullets? Where did you earn your CIB or CAR? How many gunfights have you been involved in as a police officer or legally armed citizen? Inquiring minds want to know.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

So, unless we use live ammo, its not real training?

FoF exercises supplement live fire work on the range. Training that consists of solely shooting paper, cardboard, or manikin targets on the range is missing the element of human dynamics. FoF attempts to introduce that element into training, and a well-constructed FoF program does improve a student's performance in actual encounters.


The gear has no bearing on the training. Instructional FoF can be done with red/blue guns, or even no guns at all.


How would you know if FoF has no correlation to an actual lethal force encounter? Are you suggesting you've been shot at?

 

[CWL]

I've been shot at with real bullets, been on the receiving end of artillery too.

Didn't feel like paintball.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I've played paintball, and I've also had the opportunity to train on a FATS. (Never simunition though, hopefully soon)

The difference isn't even the gear (even though the difference there is big), or the mindset.

The difference is the point. Paintball is a game; played to win. Either you win (Good job!) or you lose (Better luck next time... I'll remember not to stick my head out!)

FoF (from what I gather) FATS, MILES, etc. are actual TRAINING!

As in "You didn't get it right... back of the line, try it again." Keep running the simulation until you get it right. The emphasis is placed on gaining knowledge and understanding, to the point where it becomes instinctive.

 

[Treo]

To be perfectly clear the following paragraph is meant to be facetious in the extreme.

To establish my "street cred" I've been shot once . because I was dumb enough to dare my idiot room mate to pull the trigger on a gun he was playing W/. ( this was well over 20 years ago I learned my lesson) I've been motared (occupation hazzard) & I managed to sleep through a CH-47 crash ( Benydril will wear you out) . & lest I forget I got bit by a 14 Y/O (girl) tweeker that I was trying to to a physical managment on (be gettin' my blood tested for the next two years over that one)

Hopefuly all that was enough to grant me entrance to the testosterone drenched halls of this thread. (pardon me while I vomit)

Come on guys this is the internet every bodies a sun bronzed hero of the revolution here ( actually I'm a overweight, balding. Middleaged ,grandfather.)


Seriously some of the stuff I read on this board sounds like a wanna be Tom Clancy novel (W/ a little bit of The GodFather thrown in) guys, nobody believes this crap we read about your internet exploits & divide every thing you say by a factor of 10.

You can't practice for a gun fight. Maybe you can practice the skills necessary to win. Maybe you can practice your acessment & decision making skills W/ regard to wether or not you should even shoot, but you really can't practice all the different ways a gun fight could happen. I suppose paint ball is as good away as any to do that. Not being a survivor of countless gun fights as ,obviously, some of our moderators & senior members are. I don't suppose I could answer W/ any expertise.

I'm really not sure where to go W/ this just some of the CRAP I hear on this board & some of the attitudes of all you "operators" make me want to puke. Just know that no matter what you post I still think 90% of it is bull**** [/RANT]

I can't write a well rounded paragraph on this subject because all I really have to work with is the problem I.E. I believe that some of the stories I'm hearing in this thread are ridiculously far fetc

 

[Jeff White]

I don't think there is anything else to be learned in this thread. Obviously different people with differing levels of experience have their own perceptions of what constitutes effective training. Both sides have been presented, I leave it up to the reader to make his own decision.

Jeff