Paintball as a training aid?
- Thread starter jackdanson
- Start date
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About 15 years ago, there used to be an indoor paintball place in Silicon Valley.
As a test, Santa Clara Sheriffs SWAT Team staged an exercise where they engaged the local "champion" paintball team.
SWAT entered the building using all the current tactics but were shot-up by the paintballers.
Somehow I doubt that it would have turned-out the same if it was a real scenario with live weapons.
I don't know what, but there is a difference between real guns and paintball guns. Because of this, I have always been doubtfull of them.
As a test, Santa Clara Sheriffs SWAT Team staged an exercise where they engaged the local "champion" paintball team.
SWAT entered the building using all the current tactics but were shot-up by the paintballers.
Somehow I doubt that it would have turned-out the same if it was a real scenario with live weapons.
I don't know what, but there is a difference between real guns and paintball guns. Because of this, I have always been doubtfull of them.
i've encountered many stories of law enforcement getting owned by paintballers when doing tactical training.
the reason i think it because of the tactics. there's an emphaiss on safety in tactical teams.
in paintball, you don't take cover until you are being shot at (in tournaments or speedball there's never a time you're not spotted) but the fundamental difference in perspective means that you have field vision, you don't limit yourself, your vision, your awareness etc.
you watch the entire field, when the threat presents itself you know where it is, they may not know where you are if they're not employing normal paintball tactics.
then there's the angles and flanking. this is what paintball is all about... drawing a line or throwing a rope of balls at the target or ahead of the target in the case of a running target.
i don't know if they teach that in tactical training schools but it's the natural thing to do in paintball.
the accuracy by volume thing is also a big factor, most tactical teams have to be responsible for their rounds and also the round capacity is unfamiliar or unrealistic.
the reason i think it because of the tactics. there's an emphaiss on safety in tactical teams.
in paintball, you don't take cover until you are being shot at (in tournaments or speedball there's never a time you're not spotted) but the fundamental difference in perspective means that you have field vision, you don't limit yourself, your vision, your awareness etc.
you watch the entire field, when the threat presents itself you know where it is, they may not know where you are if they're not employing normal paintball tactics.
then there's the angles and flanking. this is what paintball is all about... drawing a line or throwing a rope of balls at the target or ahead of the target in the case of a running target.
i don't know if they teach that in tactical training schools but it's the natural thing to do in paintball.
the accuracy by volume thing is also a big factor, most tactical teams have to be responsible for their rounds and also the round capacity is unfamiliar or unrealistic.
trinydex said;
You are correct in that it teaches you those things. But what you left out was those skills are only applicable to the paintball field, not the real world.
In the real world you have to contend with a threat that may be able to engage you from hundreds of yards away. Cover in paintball for the most part is concealment when the bullets are real. Paintball markers have significantly different ballistic characteristics then real firearms.
Limit the paintballers to tactics, techniques and procedures that are proven to work in a real gunfight and then see who wins. Anytime you have two sides that are using different TTPs that are so far removed from each other, the side that is using the TTPs structured for the engagement simulator will have the advantage.
You've hit on one of my major points here. The tactical teams are training as they intend to fight and in their scenario, casualties are treated as real. The paintballer is playing his game, and to him, getting hit might mean a welt on unprotected skin. The paintballer is playing a game where after it's over things reset and everyone fights again. One again it's the difference between gaming and training.
What makes you think a tactical team isn't aware?
You watch the entire area in a tactical operation too. However the rules of engagement are quite different. In paintball, you shoot as soon as you see the enemy. A tactical team has a different mission. They are there to resolve the situation without shooting if possible. Naturally a military unit has a different mission and may have less restrictive rules of engagement.
A police tactical team has to account for every round they fire. Suppressive fire isn't a widely used tactic. A fight involving real firearms would occur over a much larger area then a paintball field. Why, because you have to limit the size of the field because of the limited effective range of your paintball marker.
Paintball markers can be effective engagement simulators in properly planned force on force training. Paintball itself is only good for training on how to play paintball.
Gaming is not now, nor will it ever be training. A complete training program consists of training on marksmanship and manipulation on the square range, more advanced marksmanship and manipulation on at least a 270 degree range, training on individual and for the military and police team movement and tactics, and properly planned and conducted force on force training. To be proficient this must be a continuous cycle as the skills learned are perishable.
Being on the world champion paintball team, or the world champion airsoft (milsim?) team or the best Call of Duty 4 player on the internet means that you are just that, a champion game player. If that was all it took to be a real gunfighter, we'd have no problem filling the ranks of elite units. When the recruiters from LAPD D Platoon, Jacksonville SWAT, CAG, DOE SWAT or any other Tier 1 military or police unit show up at the paintball and airsoft field let me know...
Jeff
You are correct in that it teaches you those things. But what you left out was those skills are only applicable to the paintball field, not the real world.
In the real world you have to contend with a threat that may be able to engage you from hundreds of yards away. Cover in paintball for the most part is concealment when the bullets are real. Paintball markers have significantly different ballistic characteristics then real firearms.
Limit the paintballers to tactics, techniques and procedures that are proven to work in a real gunfight and then see who wins. Anytime you have two sides that are using different TTPs that are so far removed from each other, the side that is using the TTPs structured for the engagement simulator will have the advantage.
You've hit on one of my major points here. The tactical teams are training as they intend to fight and in their scenario, casualties are treated as real. The paintballer is playing his game, and to him, getting hit might mean a welt on unprotected skin. The paintballer is playing a game where after it's over things reset and everyone fights again. One again it's the difference between gaming and training.
What makes you think a tactical team isn't aware?
You watch the entire area in a tactical operation too. However the rules of engagement are quite different. In paintball, you shoot as soon as you see the enemy. A tactical team has a different mission. They are there to resolve the situation without shooting if possible. Naturally a military unit has a different mission and may have less restrictive rules of engagement.
A police tactical team has to account for every round they fire. Suppressive fire isn't a widely used tactic. A fight involving real firearms would occur over a much larger area then a paintball field. Why, because you have to limit the size of the field because of the limited effective range of your paintball marker.
Paintball markers can be effective engagement simulators in properly planned force on force training. Paintball itself is only good for training on how to play paintball.
Gaming is not now, nor will it ever be training. A complete training program consists of training on marksmanship and manipulation on the square range, more advanced marksmanship and manipulation on at least a 270 degree range, training on individual and for the military and police team movement and tactics, and properly planned and conducted force on force training. To be proficient this must be a continuous cycle as the skills learned are perishable.
Being on the world champion paintball team, or the world champion airsoft (milsim?) team or the best Call of Duty 4 player on the internet means that you are just that, a champion game player. If that was all it took to be a real gunfighter, we'd have no problem filling the ranks of elite units. When the recruiters from LAPD D Platoon, Jacksonville SWAT, CAG, DOE SWAT or any other Tier 1 military or police unit show up at the paintball and airsoft field let me know...
Jeff
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
I'd like to ask a question:
Of all those who've reponded to advocate paintball as a valid training model for the Armed Citizen, how many have participated in Force on Force or Simunitions training?
Of all those who've reponded to advocate paintball as a valid training model for the Armed Citizen, how many have participated in Force on Force or Simunitions training?
whoa whoa whoa, i never said that it was useful for tactical warfare or forceful engagement. i said it can't hurt. seeing things from different perspectives and learning how things are different with different situational pressures can't hurt.
and i'm not saying that tactical teams aren't aware, but when you're out in a "paintball" like scenario, do you think the "tactical" teams are looking around as much as the paintballers are? they're not, that's typically why they get owned. they get pinned down, they don't know where fire is coming from. they don't know where the enemy is. and when they finally do look they get a rope in the face. they're just not used to how fast paced things are. the emphasis is to be less cavalier and slow is smooth smooth is fast. yeah that's not the way it is in paintball... yeah that's the way things are in tactical training.
the first thing i ever learned in paintball was if you can't get them from where you are, move. i think that's useful... but that's a very small thing, and i'm sure you can say that tactical teams train that way etc etc. that's about the most important thing i think you can get from paintball...
and i'm not saying that tactical teams aren't aware, but when you're out in a "paintball" like scenario, do you think the "tactical" teams are looking around as much as the paintballers are? they're not, that's typically why they get owned. they get pinned down, they don't know where fire is coming from. they don't know where the enemy is. and when they finally do look they get a rope in the face. they're just not used to how fast paced things are. the emphasis is to be less cavalier and slow is smooth smooth is fast. yeah that's not the way it is in paintball... yeah that's the way things are in tactical training.
the first thing i ever learned in paintball was if you can't get them from where you are, move. i think that's useful... but that's a very small thing, and i'm sure you can say that tactical teams train that way etc etc. that's about the most important thing i think you can get from paintball...
That's the exact opposite of what you are trained in SD training. Been thru enough different sessions on both Coasts and in between, they all recommend that you stay put & barricade. Make the BG come to you. In SD, you win by saying alive, not by capturing the flag. We are individuals here interested in sharing methods for us & family to stay safe, we are not SWAT or Special Forces.
I've done Simmunitions training & FoF shoothouses, that's another reason why I don't think highly of paintball being realistic for SD.
sm
member
This thread was brought to my attention, and I was asked to reply.
Why?
Heck if I know, I am nobody and as dumb as brick.
-I have never been in the Military, I am not a LEO and I have never attended a known gun school. (There were no such schools when I was coming up).
-I have never played paintball, nor have I ever shot a paint ball gun.
-I have never played a video game as pertains to guns, fighting and the like.
The only two I have were some simple car race ones I did as a volunteer in a Ped's Hospital. This young peds patient, with Leukemia, wanted to mess with these new games some private business donated and wanted me to play with him, he got a kick out of teaching me, and winning all the races.
Warning, some of what comes next might not be approved , or liked by Staff, or members.
I had "mentors" and started very very young.
Some of these mentors were LEO, Military, or had other very serious, real world experiences, and "occupations".
Big Boy Rules, hot range, and Basically the 3 rules of gun safety ( yes, this is that far back, and later rule 3 was split to make rule 4) and these folks, got down to my little kid level to communicate, but the lessons were of a real world nature.
Backing up, I shot handguns at age 3, rifle at age 4 and shotgun at age 5.
I was born in the mid 50's for a time line.
This is what I was exposed to, a real Gunny, using language , on a real Military base, and there I was watching.
He had folks going under a "sheet" of wire, and he was shooting over them!
Big Boy rules, don't act like a baby, this was really what these folks had been through in war, and these folk might very well be in the same situation.
He is shooting a Carbine over them.
$#%*ing maggots, raise your head, and you are dead!
Folks kept their heads down...
So I was not even in first grade, and we are out with these lessons.
Now, "that" water pistol ( blue ones) were teaching tools, and "real guns" so I am being mentored and I am getting shot with water because I did not do what I am supposed to and "got dead".
No sniffle, no whining, no nothing. I messed up big time, so accept it, as I own it, and straighten up and get my little skinny self and butt back in the game and "&^%it, get it right this time!"
I did, I wanted "it" , I was willing, and these folks I call Mentors, took me under wings and shared with me.
Army Helmets were the old steel "pots" with a liner.
W-a-y too big for a wittle kid, but improvised to get one to fit my head.
Mild loads of wax bullets, .38spl, and 32 cal in revolvers.
They shot that helmet with a wax bullet.
Then I shot the helmet, with a wax bullet.
I am shown , as they always did, MY safety was real important, and they were watching out for me.
They had earned my trust, still they always made sure, I knew.
I messed up again, I did not scan, and got shot in the head by a wax bullet.
Scared the crap out of me.
Unlike a water pistol that gun made real gun noise, and that wax bullet had a lot more force than water.
I was stunned, upset, all sorts of stuff.
I messed up, and said to them I did, and wanted to know what I did wrong and how to do better.
I got shot from behind, sorta on the right, and I looked at that helmet, and thought about my head, and what all I had seen real bullets do to animals and everything.
So one mentor put on a helmet, got where I was was and another mentor and I walked up like I had been walked up upon.
He picked me up to let me see better.
I showed him from my short size what I thought I looked like.
"Okay, you are thinking" and everyone came over, squatted down to see from my size, what I thought I looked like.
These folks looked at stuff from my perspective, and I got lifted up to see from theirs.
"One learns from teaching, so you have taught us something".
Yeah , maybe so, but I had been shot in the head and still not feeling very good about it.
Safety was a big deal, everything checked, marked, watched and everything.
I messed up another time, and a primer only shotgun shell was fired and "You are dead".
They distracted me, and I saw what they wanted me to see, and I run smack dab into evil with a shotgun -"bang".
I grew up with stuff like this, these Mentors , cared, and shared.
"Pay attention" and one Mentor tripped a wire and "bang".
Claymore.
Boy, that got my attention!
"WE never want you to ever trip a wire, because if you do, we will have to stop what we are doing and bury your ass".
Gulp!
So they had some "poppers" that would go bang, but do confetti.
They went through what the lesson was, it had trip wires.
"Can we go through that again before I have to do that by myself?
"Hell No! In the real world you don't to walk through, like you just did, so what did you learn so far?"
"Not sure what answer you want, but I feel like I have to pay attention to stuff, but not one thing, but lots of stuff at the same time".
I did not trip a wire during that lesson.
I got yelled at to hurry up, move faster, and even used some of them words I was not supposed to around ladies, but I did not trip any wires.
I was allowed to shoot my very own revolver, rifle, and shotgun all by myself.
Just get my gun and go to safe places and shoot.
"You shoot yourself, don't come running back whining about it, and don't be late for lunch/dinner".
This bunch was know to set up trip wires and other tests, where I would be heading over to shoot.
They were on porches or near enough, and just waiting for me to mess up.
I missed a tin can from about a foot one time, because about the time I pulled the trigger, I felt something near my leg...so I scooted back when I fired and darn it!
They were getting more sneaky on wires.
In a shoot house we had, I was told to run in and check out this new thing they had built.
No guns, nothing, just run in to see how this "house" was
I run in, hit the throw rug and the next thing I know, I am "down in a hole" looking up to see the floor.
They are looking down, with them grins they had.
"So Young'Un, what have you learned so far?
That was always asked - "What did you learn today?" and/or "what have you learned so far?".
No Paintball, we had BB guns back then.
I am still a kid, and I taken into a real Operating Room and watch a real surgery, and bullets being removed or real shotgun pellets.
I had seen animals , but these were real men and women!
I was taken to a morgue, and taken into a medical school were students learn on cadavers.
This was w-a-y different that the Vet doing a autopsy on a pet dawg!
And the dawg was something else itself!
I watched a guy shoot himself in the leg, doing quick draw, I was right there, behind him, and to his right.
We took him to a doctor and again, I was right there watching him being attended to.
All this as a kid, no paintball, just some real life lessons about all this stuff.
Which for me , I am very grateful to have had Mentors do this. Because I was still a kid, when I had to stop my first threat with a firearm and did.
Rabid dawg chasing down a kid, he had already been bitten.
I would do that again a short time later, with two rabid dawgs chasing a younger sib.
I was ~ 13 and would stop a very very serious threat, with a firearm, against 3 adult males , armed.
No paintball, perhaps I did not have some of the childhood other kids my age had, as I was raised into something and life for me was serious from the get-go.
Big Boy Rules, times were different, hot ranges, 3 rules and not only taught how to shoot, but defensive shooting and what they called "offensive" shooting.
Just a kid, mentors having me crawl with my rifle or handgun and sneak around like a sniper and not be detected and shoot targets.
Get yelled at if they saw me, get yelled at if my shots were not good, and did not know how to tell them that a snake was in my way one time, and was sorta stuck and could not move, and that is why it took me so long to get to where I could take a shot.
All I will add is, I really miss my mentors and elders I had and are now gone.
I am so grateful.
I know the sound of real bullets exploding the glass just behind my head, I know the sights and sounds of a full load of .357 going off at bad breath distance, and that bullet ripping through the other fella's shoulder.
He and his bypassed an alarm, and I unlocked a door to find a gun in my face.
My experiences are what they are, many folks have more and more serious ones, but mine are mine, and I own them.
Some say a kid should not have to go through some of what I did go through.
Mentors shared in war, kids go through this all the time, not a game, just a way of life, so listen and learn from real stuff in the world and on the streets.
*shrug*
Why?
Heck if I know, I am nobody and as dumb as brick.
-I have never been in the Military, I am not a LEO and I have never attended a known gun school. (There were no such schools when I was coming up).
-I have never played paintball, nor have I ever shot a paint ball gun.
-I have never played a video game as pertains to guns, fighting and the like.
The only two I have were some simple car race ones I did as a volunteer in a Ped's Hospital. This young peds patient, with Leukemia, wanted to mess with these new games some private business donated and wanted me to play with him, he got a kick out of teaching me, and winning all the races.
Warning, some of what comes next might not be approved , or liked by Staff, or members.
I had "mentors" and started very very young.
Some of these mentors were LEO, Military, or had other very serious, real world experiences, and "occupations".
Big Boy Rules, hot range, and Basically the 3 rules of gun safety ( yes, this is that far back, and later rule 3 was split to make rule 4) and these folks, got down to my little kid level to communicate, but the lessons were of a real world nature.
Backing up, I shot handguns at age 3, rifle at age 4 and shotgun at age 5.
I was born in the mid 50's for a time line.
This is what I was exposed to, a real Gunny, using language , on a real Military base, and there I was watching.
He had folks going under a "sheet" of wire, and he was shooting over them!
Big Boy rules, don't act like a baby, this was really what these folks had been through in war, and these folk might very well be in the same situation.
He is shooting a Carbine over them.
$#%*ing maggots, raise your head, and you are dead!
Folks kept their heads down...
So I was not even in first grade, and we are out with these lessons.
Now, "that" water pistol ( blue ones) were teaching tools, and "real guns" so I am being mentored and I am getting shot with water because I did not do what I am supposed to and "got dead".
No sniffle, no whining, no nothing. I messed up big time, so accept it, as I own it, and straighten up and get my little skinny self and butt back in the game and "&^%it, get it right this time!"
I did, I wanted "it" , I was willing, and these folks I call Mentors, took me under wings and shared with me.
Army Helmets were the old steel "pots" with a liner.
W-a-y too big for a wittle kid, but improvised to get one to fit my head.
Mild loads of wax bullets, .38spl, and 32 cal in revolvers.
They shot that helmet with a wax bullet.
Then I shot the helmet, with a wax bullet.
I am shown , as they always did, MY safety was real important, and they were watching out for me.
They had earned my trust, still they always made sure, I knew.
I messed up again, I did not scan, and got shot in the head by a wax bullet.
Scared the crap out of me.
Unlike a water pistol that gun made real gun noise, and that wax bullet had a lot more force than water.
I was stunned, upset, all sorts of stuff.
I messed up, and said to them I did, and wanted to know what I did wrong and how to do better.
I got shot from behind, sorta on the right, and I looked at that helmet, and thought about my head, and what all I had seen real bullets do to animals and everything.
So one mentor put on a helmet, got where I was was and another mentor and I walked up like I had been walked up upon.
He picked me up to let me see better.
I showed him from my short size what I thought I looked like.
"Okay, you are thinking" and everyone came over, squatted down to see from my size, what I thought I looked like.
These folks looked at stuff from my perspective, and I got lifted up to see from theirs.
"One learns from teaching, so you have taught us something".
Yeah , maybe so, but I had been shot in the head and still not feeling very good about it.
Safety was a big deal, everything checked, marked, watched and everything.
I messed up another time, and a primer only shotgun shell was fired and "You are dead".
They distracted me, and I saw what they wanted me to see, and I run smack dab into evil with a shotgun -"bang".
I grew up with stuff like this, these Mentors , cared, and shared.
"Pay attention" and one Mentor tripped a wire and "bang".
Claymore.
Boy, that got my attention!
"WE never want you to ever trip a wire, because if you do, we will have to stop what we are doing and bury your ass".
Gulp!
So they had some "poppers" that would go bang, but do confetti.
They went through what the lesson was, it had trip wires.
"Can we go through that again before I have to do that by myself?
"Hell No! In the real world you don't to walk through, like you just did, so what did you learn so far?"
"Not sure what answer you want, but I feel like I have to pay attention to stuff, but not one thing, but lots of stuff at the same time".
I did not trip a wire during that lesson.
I got yelled at to hurry up, move faster, and even used some of them words I was not supposed to around ladies, but I did not trip any wires.
I was allowed to shoot my very own revolver, rifle, and shotgun all by myself.
Just get my gun and go to safe places and shoot.
"You shoot yourself, don't come running back whining about it, and don't be late for lunch/dinner".
This bunch was know to set up trip wires and other tests, where I would be heading over to shoot.
They were on porches or near enough, and just waiting for me to mess up.
I missed a tin can from about a foot one time, because about the time I pulled the trigger, I felt something near my leg...so I scooted back when I fired and darn it!
They were getting more sneaky on wires.
In a shoot house we had, I was told to run in and check out this new thing they had built.
No guns, nothing, just run in to see how this "house" was
I run in, hit the throw rug and the next thing I know, I am "down in a hole" looking up to see the floor.
They are looking down, with them grins they had.
"So Young'Un, what have you learned so far?
That was always asked - "What did you learn today?" and/or "what have you learned so far?".
No Paintball, we had BB guns back then.
I am still a kid, and I taken into a real Operating Room and watch a real surgery, and bullets being removed or real shotgun pellets.
I had seen animals , but these were real men and women!
I was taken to a morgue, and taken into a medical school were students learn on cadavers.
This was w-a-y different that the Vet doing a autopsy on a pet dawg!
And the dawg was something else itself!
I watched a guy shoot himself in the leg, doing quick draw, I was right there, behind him, and to his right.
We took him to a doctor and again, I was right there watching him being attended to.
All this as a kid, no paintball, just some real life lessons about all this stuff.
Which for me , I am very grateful to have had Mentors do this. Because I was still a kid, when I had to stop my first threat with a firearm and did.
Rabid dawg chasing down a kid, he had already been bitten.
I would do that again a short time later, with two rabid dawgs chasing a younger sib.
I was ~ 13 and would stop a very very serious threat, with a firearm, against 3 adult males , armed.
No paintball, perhaps I did not have some of the childhood other kids my age had, as I was raised into something and life for me was serious from the get-go.
Big Boy Rules, times were different, hot ranges, 3 rules and not only taught how to shoot, but defensive shooting and what they called "offensive" shooting.
Just a kid, mentors having me crawl with my rifle or handgun and sneak around like a sniper and not be detected and shoot targets.
Get yelled at if they saw me, get yelled at if my shots were not good, and did not know how to tell them that a snake was in my way one time, and was sorta stuck and could not move, and that is why it took me so long to get to where I could take a shot.
All I will add is, I really miss my mentors and elders I had and are now gone.
I am so grateful.
I know the sound of real bullets exploding the glass just behind my head, I know the sights and sounds of a full load of .357 going off at bad breath distance, and that bullet ripping through the other fella's shoulder.
He and his bypassed an alarm, and I unlocked a door to find a gun in my face.
My experiences are what they are, many folks have more and more serious ones, but mine are mine, and I own them.
Some say a kid should not have to go through some of what I did go through.
Mentors shared in war, kids go through this all the time, not a game, just a way of life, so listen and learn from real stuff in the world and on the streets.
*shrug*
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
I like how people poo-poo something they probably never done.
All training is a game. Simunition and FoF is a game unless you're shooting each other with real ammo.
Exercise, shooting something, and cover and concealment is all good training.
I bet it would have turned out close to the same, swat relies a lot on the element of surprise. If bad guys are waiting with real guns the swat team would have been massacred.
Nobody here is saying paintball is the ultimate training aid but it's far from worthless.
All training is a game. Simunition and FoF is a game unless you're shooting each other with real ammo.
Exercise, shooting something, and cover and concealment is all good training.
I bet it would have turned out close to the same, swat relies a lot on the element of surprise. If bad guys are waiting with real guns the swat team would have been massacred.
Nobody here is saying paintball is the ultimate training aid but it's far from worthless.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
No, you're wrong. I have played paintball. When I was down at Camp Geiger, NC for Advanced Infantry Training school, it was the only activity I could do on weekends. It was on base, and we didn't get off-base liberty there. I also played it for a little while once I got out of the Marines.
I've also been through hundreds of Force on Force/Simunitions training scenarios. Literally hundreds. They ARE NOT games. How many have you been through?
The two are nothing like each other. Nothing at all. You might think there's "no harm" in treating paintball like a real life encounter. OK. Fine. You are welcome to explain to a jury of your peers why you decided to lay a string of suppressive fire in your neighborhood, or in the parking lot of the Wal-Mart was justified because you learned it in paintball.
There are problems when you approach paint ball as a valid training tool. Its a game. I have no problem with it. I don't denigrate it. If that's something you enjoy, then fine. Have fun with it. I certainly did. But I did not, for one minute, think it had anything to do with training as an Armed Citizen.
Allow me to express my thoughts on it with a metaphor.
When I was in high school some friends acquired an X-rated video of pornography. Being virgins, the only experience they had with sex was what this video offered. But if one were to suggest the sex that was occurring in that video was an accurate representation of sex between a married couple, or between two people that loved each other, anyone who knew any better would have laughed at them and told them they were sadly mistaken.
Asserting that paint ball has anything to do with good training, or that it has value for training us as Armed Citizens is not much different. Sure, that video showed some version of sex. But it wasn't realistic beyond the bare mechanics.
Just because some paint ball team shot up some SWAT Team doesn't mean the SWAT Team's tactics sucked. They were operating on their own rules. They don't lay suppressive fire. Their mission isn't to go out to hunt and kill. In fact, if a SWAT Team engaged in that type of behavior, there'd be 2 dozen threads on here scorning them. Paintball is concerned with just that.
Let's get realistic about your game, folks. It is a game. It has about as much relevance to the Armed Citizen as a porno tape does to a married couple.
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bogie
Member
Training?
Training for what?
Training for getting shot?
Or ducking slow?
Or thinking that you're really bulletproof?
Training for what?
Training for getting shot?
Or ducking slow?
Or thinking that you're really bulletproof?
campers are easy targets. this is what i mean by limiting your field of view, limiting your awareness, you hunker up and you don't change your position or your tactics. at this point the enemy knows where you are and can do any number of things to distract, deceive and destroy you.
also that's totally useless tactic when the other person is also hunkered down, much more likely what a real swat team faces.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
And how much do you know about what a "real SWAT Team" faces?
Are you on a SWAT Team? Are you even a Sworn Officer on any department, anywhere in the United States?
Before you begin to assert what kinds of things you think a "real SWAT Team" faces, and the responses that a "real SWAT Team" are willing to use in these kinds of circumstances, I want to hear what actual experience you have about SWAT Teams.
plexreticle
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 1,240
Unless your actually shooting each other with real bullets a training exercise is basically a game. I don't care if it's called FoF or lane training or CHL class.
Nobody here said the paintball field is the ultimate training ground. Like I said before shooting people with paint balls is better training than shooting paper with lead. It's far from useless.
Nobody here said the paintball field is the ultimate training ground. Like I said before shooting people with paint balls is better training than shooting paper with lead. It's far from useless.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Paintball allows someone to engage a moving, human target that will respond to them. As value for training, paintball begins and ends at that one singular aspect. Even those scenarios are dubious in regards to actual confrontations as Armed Citizens. I'm not saying its completely useless. You're suggesting its far from useless. I AM asserting its next to useless.
I'll also assert that if one were to incorporate the lessons from paint ball into his training as solutions to deal with the problems an Armed Citizen encounters, he's deluding himself. Dangerously deluding himself.
You made this comment earlier:
I shared with you when I played paint ball. Where and when was your last Force on Force scenario? How is it you know enough to be competent to denigrate the value of FoF training?
And this comment:
How is it you know about the tactics, training, and responses of SWAT Teams to be knowledgeable enough to say their tactics will get them "massacred"?
I'll also assert that if one were to incorporate the lessons from paint ball into his training as solutions to deal with the problems an Armed Citizen encounters, he's deluding himself. Dangerously deluding himself.
You made this comment earlier:
I shared with you when I played paint ball. Where and when was your last Force on Force scenario? How is it you know enough to be competent to denigrate the value of FoF training?
And this comment:
How is it you know about the tactics, training, and responses of SWAT Teams to be knowledgeable enough to say their tactics will get them "massacred"?
Having played a good bit of paintball (enough to have owned markers and all the gear) and having participated in well-run scenario-based force on force training, I'd comment that one significant difference between the two is context.
I'm no expert in adult education, but, as I understand it, context plays a pretty important role in the transfer of skillsets from training to live situations. For some background on this, see:
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/p...zSz1994zSzCMU-CS-94-187.pdf/reder94effect.pdf
Section 3.9, "How Important is Fidelity to Simulation?" is particurlarly on point.
I can't comment on whether a game of paintball provides any relevant context for a SWAT team member. I'm not on a SWAT team, and question whether their mission/TTPs have much relevance for the average armed citizen.
I can say that the difference in relavant context for me between a 'capture the flag' speedball game and a 'go withdraw $20 from that ATM' FoF scenario is significant. In quality FoF training, I'm spending most of my time avoiding, interacting with, and managing unknown contacts (credit Southnarc for the phrase). I'm doing so in a simulation that replicates a lot of perceptual cues that relate to the real world I knock around in. Note that by 'context', I mean much more than just the appearance of the room - consider what criminal assaults look like.
In my real world, I avoid, interact with, and manage unknown contacts on a pretty regular basis (live and work in a major city and spend a ton of time on public transportation). Skillsets I cultivate in FoF transfer over nicely. I just can't imagine anyting I learned in paintball helping me out on the subway ride into work.....
I'm no expert in adult education, but, as I understand it, context plays a pretty important role in the transfer of skillsets from training to live situations. For some background on this, see:
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/cache/p...zSz1994zSzCMU-CS-94-187.pdf/reder94effect.pdf
Section 3.9, "How Important is Fidelity to Simulation?" is particurlarly on point.
I can't comment on whether a game of paintball provides any relevant context for a SWAT team member. I'm not on a SWAT team, and question whether their mission/TTPs have much relevance for the average armed citizen.
I can say that the difference in relavant context for me between a 'capture the flag' speedball game and a 'go withdraw $20 from that ATM' FoF scenario is significant. In quality FoF training, I'm spending most of my time avoiding, interacting with, and managing unknown contacts (credit Southnarc for the phrase). I'm doing so in a simulation that replicates a lot of perceptual cues that relate to the real world I knock around in. Note that by 'context', I mean much more than just the appearance of the room - consider what criminal assaults look like.
In my real world, I avoid, interact with, and manage unknown contacts on a pretty regular basis (live and work in a major city and spend a ton of time on public transportation). Skillsets I cultivate in FoF transfer over nicely. I just can't imagine anyting I learned in paintball helping me out on the subway ride into work.....
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I have also played paintball (notice how the word "play" is used in conjunction with paintball v. "train"?). Played outside and indoors games, never got into it. Didn't feel it was useful for anything and the fanatics with all the 'gear' had a definite advantage.
you wanna read the rest of what i said?
if the swat team is facing THE SPECIFIC SCENARIO where the "bg" is hunkered down, barricaded, in a house or otherwise. does it help for the swat team to just hunker down and have the enemy "come to them" when the enemy has no intention of doing that?
i understand that swat teams try to get them to come out, negotiate, peaceful surrender, but what happens when they don't?
asserting that you should "always" hunker down and wait for the enemy to come to you is not a "tactic," nor is it special.
i'm sure you're familiar that swat employs dynamic tactics... i watch tv, swat doesn't "always hunker down and wait for the enemy to come to them." they occassionally have to go after the hunkered down bad guy. when they do, they have to employ a wide array of of varying tactics, such as distractions etc.
i don't even know why i'm painted as the paintball defense attorney, i never said paintball is useful training, i said seeing things in a different perspective can't hurt.
WayneConrad
Member
Y'all are missing the one thing paintball is good for, if you do it a lot. It keeps you from being a fatbody.
Ok, my background. I have played paintball and I've been on a SWAT team. I spent a good portion of my military career planning and conducting force on force training for light Infantry units. I am a certified MILES trainer/controller and over the course of a combined 35 year military and police career have used just about every tactical engagement simulator from the old Army SCOPES system (this consisted of camouflage helmet covers with numbers on them and special 4x telescopes without reticules that attached to the carry handle of the M16A1 with a plastic mount, you literally called out the number of the person you just shot and the umpires took him out of the battle) to paintball, airsoft, simunitions and MILES II. Every tactical engagement simulator has it's weaknesses. A force on force training scenario must be carefully planned and controlled to compensate for those deficiencies. If it's not, it will not be effective training. In fact if it's poorly planned and controlled it can degenerate into a typical paintball, airsoft, capture the flag type game. Why is that you ask?
It's because everyone wants to win. And people who want to win will quickly exploit the weaknesses in their engagement simulator to give themselves an advantage over those who are playing by the rules. The other side, seeing this, will adopt the same tactics to even the fight and what was planned to be a learning experience degenerates into a game. A game where the big lesson learned is (pick one): MILES is deflected by the leaves, a small bush is as good as a foxhole with 18 inches of overhead cover on 4x4s. Paintballs fly slow enough that I can successfully make a 12 second rush across open ground, especially if my opponent has a single shot or semi auto marker, cardboard boxes are equal to hiding behind an M1A2 Abrams.
Then there is the phenomena we used to call MILES courage. People are very likely to make suicide attacks because they know there is no real risk involved. People usually aren't so heroic when the possible consequence is serious injury or death.
None of these things are a consideration when it comes to a game. A person who wanted to win at a game would be a fool not to develop tactics, techniques and procedures that took advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of his/her tools.
Games are games and nothing more. IDPA, IPSC and 3 gun matches aren't training for gunfighting. Paintball, airsoft and first person shooter games are not training for combat. Are there specific individual skills in those games that are transferable to the real world? Yes. But when you participate in those games, don't delude yourself into believing you are getting any more out of it then getting better at a game.
Training can be fun, but it's also hard work. The dynamic entry tactics you like so much on reality TV on A&E and the Discovery Channel weren't learned on the paintball field. They are the product of hundreds of hours of hard work. The tactics, techniques and procedures they use are designed around real guns with real bullets and serious consequences.
Quality force on force training is probably the part of a complete training program that is the least available to the private citizen. There are dozens of schools where you can learn to shoot. There are hundreds of books, tapes and seminars on mindset. But there aren't many places where a private citizen can go to be exposed to properly planned and conducted force on force training. If you choose to play paintball or airsoft to fill that void, I think you'll be in for a big disappointment should you be unfortunate enough to have to rely on those skills for your own life or another's.
Jeff
It's because everyone wants to win. And people who want to win will quickly exploit the weaknesses in their engagement simulator to give themselves an advantage over those who are playing by the rules. The other side, seeing this, will adopt the same tactics to even the fight and what was planned to be a learning experience degenerates into a game. A game where the big lesson learned is (pick one): MILES is deflected by the leaves, a small bush is as good as a foxhole with 18 inches of overhead cover on 4x4s. Paintballs fly slow enough that I can successfully make a 12 second rush across open ground, especially if my opponent has a single shot or semi auto marker, cardboard boxes are equal to hiding behind an M1A2 Abrams.
Then there is the phenomena we used to call MILES courage. People are very likely to make suicide attacks because they know there is no real risk involved. People usually aren't so heroic when the possible consequence is serious injury or death.
None of these things are a consideration when it comes to a game. A person who wanted to win at a game would be a fool not to develop tactics, techniques and procedures that took advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of his/her tools.
Games are games and nothing more. IDPA, IPSC and 3 gun matches aren't training for gunfighting. Paintball, airsoft and first person shooter games are not training for combat. Are there specific individual skills in those games that are transferable to the real world? Yes. But when you participate in those games, don't delude yourself into believing you are getting any more out of it then getting better at a game.
Training can be fun, but it's also hard work. The dynamic entry tactics you like so much on reality TV on A&E and the Discovery Channel weren't learned on the paintball field. They are the product of hundreds of hours of hard work. The tactics, techniques and procedures they use are designed around real guns with real bullets and serious consequences.
Quality force on force training is probably the part of a complete training program that is the least available to the private citizen. There are dozens of schools where you can learn to shoot. There are hundreds of books, tapes and seminars on mindset. But there aren't many places where a private citizen can go to be exposed to properly planned and conducted force on force training. If you choose to play paintball or airsoft to fill that void, I think you'll be in for a big disappointment should you be unfortunate enough to have to rely on those skills for your own life or another's.
Jeff
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