Paintball as a training aid?

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When I played a day of paintball, I spent a bag of 500 rounds and two CO2 20gram (?) cartridges for the whole 6 hours. I "played" about 20 games worth....lost count I was having so much fun. I didn't actually reload that much — I tended to conserve ammo — I would check my hopper after each "game" and I wouldn't even top it off much because then my reserve ammo would become excessively loud shaking around in the pods (ammo carriers).

Just a habit, I guess. There are a couple points I would like point out about both lead paper shooting and paintball/airsoft, ugh, playing...


• It is a very cost effective way to learn force on force experience. There is one thing from shooting paper, and there is another when someone is shooting at you.
• The importance of sprinting like a bat out of hell between cover points is very easily learned. Sure we can talk about it, but when you're there you'll realize why. You need to DO IT to understand...:)
• You can load your hopper or airsoft mags with less rounds. Paintball hoppers won't feed quite right though as the rounds run out because it's a hopper. Airsoft magazines are spring loaded.
• Pain for mistakes, as another pointed out, is a good learning tool. Contrary to popular opinion airsoft stings, paintball does hurt a lot with 3J of impact force. You can draw blood at close range with airsoft guns, so any opinions that it's for wussies is rubbish, because it is not.
• Everybody here should do it, both for fun and experience. There are things you learn there that you don't learn shooting paper and metal swingers. You would be suprised how fast your options fly out the window when multiple people have you pinned behind a large (maybe 1 kiloliter) barrel....


•Recoil though, in an airsoft pistol, is a long ways from a 9mm LUGER recoil. Some of the hardest kicking ones can approach .22LR recoil. The airsoft gas-blow-back pistols are some of the best training tools out there. Seriously. Paintball pistols are lacking, I used one that used 12g CO2 powerlets and held about 12 balls that needed manual cycling for each shot.
• Paintball does side effects if you are not careful. In a "speedball" course, everybody opens the game with a shower of paint towards the other side. Few people are ever hit, I only saw a few hit in that process. Some people, I observed, would go through their entire hopper (about 200-250 rounds, depending, sometimes more, sometimes less) in less than two minutes and use up all their reserve ammo on their belt before the end of the game (which lasted about five to eight minutes). I would use maybe twenty to thirty rounds at the most per game.
•Paintball guns are typically (that is, average) in my experience, accurate to about 25-35 meters. You need to move in close to have the accuracy to hit small exposed elements of the enemy...you should have seen the HUGE pattern my marker was laying out when I was trying to nab someone hiding behind cover — lets just say you could have popped out and shot me because mine was so inaccurate you wouldn't have been hit...
•Airsoft guns tend to be more accurate and BBs, typically white, but can be obtained in black (can't see them buggers coming! :)) travel faster, smaller and can carry much more. But I see excessive magazine capacity a hinderance upon training, especially when real firearms are brought in. A 30 round AR mag in airsoft could hold 300 rounds or so, in high-cap form, in mid-cap (different design) could hold about 130 or so, and standard cap, maybe 60-80, and low cap, 30 rounds. MIL-SIM players typically prefer the low caps for realistic reasons.
 
tmpick said: Unless, of course, you're suggesting that force on force excercises are a good subsitute for actual combat experience.

Considering that we are not a military oriented discussion board, the question posed was:

Paintball as a training aid?

and we'll have to limit ourselves to evaluate it under what this subforum on The High Road is intended for.


Is paintball useful for supplementing the training of an infantry unit? Sure is.

OK. So just how many of us are in an infantry unit?


Is paintball useful for training the armed citizen offered violence from a criminal? Nuh-uh. But you're welcome to hold onto that belief if you want to.
 
Oh, ok... so violence from a criminal only comes when you are standing in a parking lot with no cover available?

Think outside the box. Training is training.

Nobody is here saying that it will take the place of firearms training but it will supplement it in certain ways.
 
I just want to squeeze in a little tidbit about the 800+ rounds and fully automatic.

1. It's been a little while since I played, but I still like to watch, when you play a real, actual competition, you are restricted to semi-auto fire only.
Granted, this is speedball. But I personally believe that speedball is a fantastic way to build teamwork and help the OIC learn how to use his men properly to out-maneuver and defeat the opposing team.

2. ammo conservation- When I played with my team at local competitions, (not enough money to support national play) I could say without much doubt that we used far fewer than 200 rds per engagement. more around 120-150/person. That's a lot when you look at it, but when you consider the inaccuracy of the markers, it makes sense. When we played our concentration was on maneuver, speed, and relative stealth. We always beat the teams that just got up and started blasting away as fast as they could, and we lost maybe 6-8 times in 2 years of play. (generally only lost 0-1 person per game) I don't have my game book with me, but I think that's about right.
It taught us things like, move during pauses, move from cover to cover, flank the enemy, and exploit their weakness in formation.

I don't see how this is much different than what you'd learn in the military. Though they could also preach the "Rambo" gospel, but I doubt it. :p
 
Paintball guns are useful in very controlled FOF exercises where their 'paintball' attributes are minimized. Using cover, limiting ammo to reasonable quantities, having referees that eliminate you after you have a reasonable hit. Same with Airsoft guns. Like Sims.

If it is a shoot-fest - then so what.
 
Cheaper ammo is great! Will Walmart take my picture if I buy one there?
 
I originally posted this elsewhere, but it's germane to this thread, so ...

Yesterday I went up to Skirmish USA in the Poconos to play paintball for a friend's birthday. Aside from a chance to run around in the woods and get muddy, I tried to approach it as a force-on-force learning experience. Keeping in mind that there are certain rules which decrease realism (e.g., hits below the elbow or knee, or on the gun don't count, the paintball guns hold a lot more ammo than any gun that's not belt fed), and the fact that rather than a bunch of trained operators each team was more like an uncoordinated mob, I think there were a few lessons to be gained as to the use of *real* force. In the end, it was still an exercise in which two groups of "armed" people were trying to shoot each other.

In no particular order:

1. People hide behind things when you shoot at them. If this was a real firefight, I'd want a round that offers good penetration. E.g., 7.62x39 or 7.62 NATO. I've witnessed multiple 5.56x45 bullets get stopped cold by a sapling which was maybe 3" in diameter. For home defense this may be an advantage. For combat, give me something that will turn cover into concealment.

2. Peering out from concealment is frequently enough to get you shot in the head. I think I got hit in the face/head 3 or 4 times yesterday.

2(a) Frequently, the only shot you may get on an opponent is of a head or other body part sticking out. For anything further than 20 yards, you're going to want a rifle, unless you have a shotgun with slugs and you can shoot it as well as a rifle. I hope to have a rifle if I ever get in a firefight.

3. Even when behind cover or concealment, frequently you will get shot by someone you didn't know was around.

4. That said, it's safer to stay hidden than to try closing with your enemy. Let him come to you and you'll survive longer.

5. When operating in thick woods or a built up area, there may be 40 people within an acre or two, and you may still not see anybody, friend or foe. The same applies if it isn't a paintball game. Some kind of short range radios for tactical commo would be *very* valuable.

6. Gloves are good. They allow you to drop to the ground without scraping your hands and provide limited protection against glancing blows. I wore Mechanix brand mechanic's gloves, which are thin enough to allow you to be reasonably dextrous. I wore these gloves in a practical carbine match back in December and they worked well for real shooting (I won the iron sight class, AAMOF). I got them at Lowe's.

7. Well-aimed suppressive fire can keep your opponent pinned down so he can't shoot you or your buddy. This is NOT "spray and pray." Rather, if you see an enemy behind cover, you can put rounds close to him, which will prevent him from poking out at you. Obviously, civilians don't usually have the luxury of using suppressive fire in defensive situations, since we need to be careful about not shooting innocent bystanders. Unfortunately, your opponent may not care. Keep this in mind so you can adapt your tactics to fit the situation.

8. Plain black iron sights won't be easy to see in the woods or inside a dimly lit building, especially when it's overcast or near dawn or dusk. At a minimum, your front sight should have a white or orange insert or paint. A (real) gold or ivory bead, or fiber optic front sight will be much better. A red dot sight is better yet. Fiber optic sight inserts and illuminated optics are two of the best innovations in the gun world ever, IMHO.

9. Even though I wasn't in any kind of danger, this kind of exercise made my adrenalin level skyrocket. Unless you are the kind of person who's unfazed by anything, expect your heart to be pounding. This is less of a factor if you're in good physical shape. Unfortunately, I'm a fat middle aged guy.

10. If you wear glasses or goggles, get some anti-fog coating if it's at all humid. Until I got some "Fog[Tech]" wipes from the pro shop I couldn't see much because my glasses and protective mask kept fogging up. If you can't see, you can't fight.

10(a) If you wear protective goggles, pick ones that wrap around so they don't limit your peripheral vision. The masks supplied by Skirmish USA eliminated peripheral vision, which exacerbated my inability to keep track of my surroundings. OTH, this helped simulate the tunnel vision many people report in the aftermath of a real encounter.

11. When involved in a force-on-force encounter, getting shot is a very real possibility. There's a good chance you won't even see who shoots you. Unlike the movies where the hero gets shot in the arm but goes on to prevail, expect to get shot in the hands, arms, face, head, chest, back, butt, and groin.

11(a). Yes, I got hit a two or three times in the crotch. Thankfully, I was wearing my spare ammo carrier so that it covered up my boys, so it didn't hurt. If you decide to practice force-on-force with airsoft or paintball, wear protection down there.

12. "Too much ammo" is an oxymoron.
 
Skirmish! I love Skirmish, too bad I live hundreds of miles away. Considering paintball as a F-on-F training exercise, there are some elements of training that I've derived from it. One, I carry a true combat load and don't spray and pray - if I don't think I can hit it, I don't waste my ammo. Two, being aggressive in movement is good, being too aggressive is a good way to find yourself wearing paint.

Playing in everything from 1 vs 1 games on up to the multiple thousands that play at Skirmish USA's world record games that I've played in, it definitely shows how your tactics need to evolve and adapt to each situation. Against one other person you are much more free to move and be aggressive than in the multi-thousand games.

In the large games, yes there are tanks, pillboxes, etc... you learn how to use different elements of terrain... how to fight your way out of an ambush and how to run like hell when surrounded. Teamwork, communication and supporting fire was definitely the order of the day.
 
After coming back to this thread today and reading the new posts (and re-reading old ones), it occurs to me that we've (at times) been arguing Apples & Oranges, some here assuming "training aid" means for a "draw your CCW when attacked by a bad-guy" situation. Were that the case, i'd have to agree, paintball experience wouldn't be much help at all. BUT.... others,myself included, have assumed the OP meant more of a SHTF-defending-the-neighborhood-against-maurading-looters type of scenario. And, after re-reading the original post, this was much closer to what the OP described, therefore, i stand by my insistance that paintball has been a most useful training aid. In fact, were a Katrina-like situation develop in my area, i'd be MORE than thrilled to find myself shoulder to shoulder with my brother and our paintball team, sporting our AR's,AK's Marlins,whatever.Trust me, no truck-load of armed looters would wanna be up against THAT ****-storm !!:eek:
 
MIL-DOT said: BUT.... others,myself included, have assumed the OP meant more of a SHTF-defending-the-neighborhood-against-maurading-looters type of scenario. And, after re-reading the original post, this was much closer to what the OP described, therefore, i stand by my insistance that paintball has been a most useful training aid.

Considering the rules guiding discussions in S&T, if this is the direction the thread takes, it won't have much life left. From the sticky at the top of this forum:
It's not part of the mission of the forum to discuss outlandish and totally unrealistic scenarios. Threads that are based on end of the world scenarios will be closed or deleted. There are plenty of forums that people interested in that sort of thing can go to.

For example:

What gun and how much ammo do I need for a civil disturbance or the end of the world? Is not on topic and will be closed or deleted.


If we begin talking about using paintball as training for SHTF, that's off topic for S&T.
 
Heck, it probably doesn't have much life left, anyway. It wasn't my intention to shift the thread in any direction or another, i wasn't even aware of any possible rules infraction, just using the SHTF-type scenario as an example of the larger scale situation i assumed the OP was talking about.Over and out ! :)
 
Outlandish and unrealistic situations... I am from New Orleans and trust me bullfrog, nothing about the Katrina situation was outlandish and unrealistic. Defending the neighborhood was a reality for a bunch of people.

I am actually slightly disturbed and feel disrespected by the fact that you would link "Katrina style looting and mass marauding situation" with "outlandish and totally unrealistic".

I guess it is different for me since I was in the area when it was going on... But hey, it hasn't happened to you so it must not happen in real life!

To each his I guess.
 
If we begin talking about using paintball as training for SHTF, that's off topic for S&T.

That was not what the original thread was about. Certainly it COULD be used in that manner, but that is not where I was heading. I was thinking more of parking lot/convenience store/home encounter that would involve 1-2 bg's. I think the combination of firearms training in conjuction with something like paintball would really aid you in this type of scenario. It teaches you to think in the mindset of a firefight. Not the exact same, but much closer than shooting paper at 7 yards. (not saying that aspect should be neglected though)

That being said we had a multi-day mass power outage here in STL a few years ago. I was staying with my friend in a "bad" neighborhood and could easily see some kind of anarchy rising up there had there been other factors involved. (like a racist police video in conjuction with the power outage) We would have been the first targets for an angry, racist, mob. (don't forget this type of thing HAS happened before.)
 
Is paintball useful for training the armed citizen offered violence from a criminal? Nuh-uh. But you're welcome to hold onto that belief if you want to.

I disagree. There are many point-blank situations where it wouldn't help, but there are many situations in which it would. Parking lot for example. Use of cover can be taught and taught, but until you see it in action, you aren't going to know exactly how to react. If a BG takes a shot at me and I haven't drawn yet, I will take cover while simultaneously drawing, and use the cover to my advantage when I return fire. I am quick on my feet, I know how to use cover, I know how to run without disturbing my point of aim, I know when to sprint to get to a better cover, I know how to work angles, all of this from paintball. Go ahead and sprawl/use a piece of cover as a tripod for your shooting arms, I could snap out and pick someone off out to 25 feet before they could change there point of aim.
 
Paintball probably has some very limited effectiveness as a training aid.

For our police department, we use "simunitions" for force-on-force training. This makes the event about as close to realistic as possible (without actually shooting and killing your partners).

The simunitions are essentially a powder-charged marking cartridge that you fire from your regular weapons (in the AR-15's you change out the bolt group). These things go pop, the action cycles, you have limited ammo, the same weapon you'd carry in the field... and damn do those things hurt!!! They do provide some motivation not to be hit!

We conduct our training in real buildings against a variety of scenarios...
 
(QUOTE) " I would say the amount of training you get is minimal at best. In paintball you're not afraid to charge someone because you know that they wont literally kill you.".

So you're in essense saying that all the training soldiers do is a waste of time unless they use real bullets ? Or training for Friday nights game is useless because no one's really trying to score? Or sparing in a ring has no value 'cause the other guy's not really trying his best to knock you out cold ?
Many here seem to be missing the point with this "all or nothing" perspective. Only because a training simulation isn't equal to the experience of live-fire combat, doesn't mean it has no value.
 
Only because a training simulation isn't equal to the experience of live-fire combat, doesn't mean it has no value.

Big +1

Paintball isn't a real gunfight, but it does have some redeeming value.

Absorb what is useful, discard what isn't. Simple, Really.

With the attitude of some people here, you might as well quit using simunitions and start using real live ammo, because that's the only way you'll get a "realistic" training experience.
 
I used to play a lot of 'ball, this was back in the CA-pump and Stocker days when it wasn't uncommon to go out for a flag game with only 20-30 rounds.

I wouldn't consider paintball "training" at all, but that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be taken from it. I certainly learned to "take my time in a hurry" as the saying goes, from those games.

The rest of it, *shrug*, it's a game, don't make more of it than it is.
 
It might be helpful in encouraging the avoidance of a gunfight when you realize just how easy it is to get shot. And that's with a smooth bore shooting an imperfect projectile :)
 
Paintball is not training for anything but paintball

Many people think that paintball, airsoft, first person shooter games in arcades and on their PC are training for combat. The reality is, they aren't training for anything but playing paintball, airsoft, or first person shooter games.

Training is not random. Training must be planned in advance. It must have a specific objective. Paintball, airsoft and even highly modified first person shooter games can all be part of the simulation, and as simulators in a scenario with a specific objective, that is planned to take the very imperfect modeling of actual firearms that they actually are, they can be tools.

There is much more to force on force training then loading up the gear and heading to the woods or shoot house. If you think you are learning anything that will serve you well in a real fight by playing paintball, airsoft, or first person shooter games, you are kidding yourself.

Paintball, airsoft, simunitions, MILES and any other simulator you can name are poor simulators of the capabilities of real firearms. You must know what the differences are and you have to plan your training to eliminate or negate them. If you don't, the students will use the differences to win. And since you fight like you train, they will carry bad habits into a fight.

The fun part of paintball, airsoft and the other games is winning. If you don't select, train and control the opposing force, role players or badguys (pick your own term) and make them understand that they are just a training aid, that the only reason they are on the field or in the shoot house, is to facilitate the learning, you will end up wasting everyone's time.

There is a lot more to force on force training then possessing a tactical engagement simulator.

Jeff
 
I can't say that I disagree with anything that's been said wrt to paintball. I do say that my boys have a better sense of "concealment" than your average shooter as anything sticking out can be tagged.

I do have to brag a bit though. Yesterday my twin boys were on a 5-man team that won the division 1-A College National Championship. (Illinois State University) I told them to lie to ESPN and tell them that I taught they everything they know. :)

Have a good one,
Dave
 
Is paintball useful for training the armed citizen offered violence from a criminal? Nuh-uh. But you're welcome to hold onto that belief if you want to.

Thanks for allowing me to have my opinion. You're welcome to hold onto your opinion, too.
 
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