Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

[X-Rap]

So if 3 mags of 15 is good does that mean you should carry 6 of 7 rds? And keep 12?
That subject was as far off topic as I thought it could go until the vest came in.
What happened to the discussion on the merits of the video?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

A lot of people are unwilling to question their own beliefs on how things work, and they don't know how to argue a point.

There is another phenomenon at play here. it's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Basically, The lower one's knowledge on a subject, the less able they are to accurately gauge their competence in the subject.

The way to avoid falling into the trap of the dunning kruger effect is to accept that you are a poor judge of your competency.

A good way to get better at pistolshooting is a three cornered approcah.

1. Take training classes from reputable people.

2. practice what you learned regularly.

3. shoot competition.


Training teaches you what to practice, and competition shows you what skills are weak and need reenforcement.

 

[power5]

Pretty sure I do not need to compete to know what skills are lacking. Unless you just shoot randomly. I am always shooting at a target of some sort. I can usually tell how good I am by the hits on that target. A good way to get better at pistol shooting is: PRACTICE

 

[David E]

Since Gomez favors hicap 9's as opposed to lo-cap 9's, discussing hicap magazines as part of the topic is relevant.

And, with all due respect, if the ONLY thing you're looking at to gauge your skill level progress is the target....well, there's more to it than that. Much more.

 

[BBQLS1]

Paul is a good guy. He has some very valid and well thought out points of view.

Who is he? Google can be you friend:

http://gomez-training.com/

He's also a poster here: http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=10212608

He actually posts quite a bit of stuff in the Strategies and Tactics section. It's kinda odd nobody here has ever heard of him before this thread. Does everyone know that we have such a section?



.

 

[NMGonzo]

I like shooting .45, which I carry, because I can see the holes in the target from afar.

 

[BBQLS1]

Definitely easier.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That must be why all the professional pistol shooters shoot .45's, because those bigger bullets give them a better chance that the hole in the target will nick the line, giving them the higher value.

Oops, turns out that 95% of them shoot .40 or 9mm, seems that they figured out that placement and controllability is more important than a few thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter. Your theory that bigger is automatically better only applies if you're counting on pure luck to hit something.

Just think, if you applied your vast knowledge of the benefits of bigger diameter bullets, you could easily be national champion!

2010 USPSA Nationals

40_______218_______63.01%
9mm_____111________32.08%
45_______16________4.62%
10mm_____1________0.29%
38 Super___0________0.00%

_________346______100.00%

But how many men were killed at the 2010 USPSA Nationals?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

What's your point?

 

[jimbo555]

I think Verns point is that shooting games and shooting for real are 2 different things.

 

[David E]

I wonder....if the AWB were reinstated and the magazine capacity was 10, regardless of caliber, would Gomez still promote a Glock 19 over a Glock 23 or Glock 30?

I doubt it, as he apparently favors capacity over caliber.

 

[X-Rap]

Since we are now fantasizing about tyranny I wonder what his choice would be if a ban called for 5 shot maximum? Perhaps his choice would shift to a 357mag or 44 spl.
Pretty silly question aside for validating the need for lots of magazines to keep those G19's up and running

 

[David E]

Since we are now fantasizing about tyranny I wonder what his choice would be if a ban called for 5 shot maximum?

You make a totally illogical leap here. Or maybe I missed the five round magazine capacity Federal requirement, whereas the 10 rd mag limit is very recent historical fact.

Point is, if given equal capacities in the same size gun, would he still favor the 9mm because he thinks it's better? Or is there acknowledgement that a .40 or .45 are better in a fight?

Pretty silly question aside for validating the need for lots of magazines to keep those G19's up and running

You think six magazines for a primary defensive weapon qualifies as "a lot?" That's interesting.

 

[X-Rap]

Don't recall ever saying 6 was a lot (I'm with you on believing in spares, plenty of them) but to say that harsher limits than 10 are any more of a leap than what was the last restrictive law regulating semi auto capacity is no more speculative than assuming there would be an identical requirement of the former AWB.
I will say that a fool would contend that a 9 = a .40 = a .45 all things being equal regardimg modern components, what I take away from Gomez as well as some others is that the difference in modern ammo is not significant enough to overcome the benefit of much higher (in some cases double) the capacity as well as the shootability of the lighter 9mm round in a gun of similar size.
Some will contend that the "serious shooter" will be able to control the muzzle of a larger caliber as well but in reality if that is true he should still be superior with the lighter round.
The question or point to be made is not which is the best one shot terminal caliber because it is pretty well established that handgun calibers in general "suck" in terms of terminal performance but given the small difference in the various available defensive gun/caliber combinations and the dynamics of a gunfight some believe that the added capacity is superior to the added performance of the caliber.
That seems to be at the heart of what Gomez was saying, this thread is well off the tracks but lets try and get it back to that simple discussion.

 

[David E]

Some will contend that the "serious shooter" will be able to control the muzzle of a larger caliber as well but in reality if that is true he should still be superior with the lighter round.

In my case, I proved to be equally fast and accurate with the .45 acp as I was with a 9mm.

I don't know where that line is drawn to be able to do that, but I contend that it's within the ability of most shooters, given proper instruction in technique and the practice to go with it. It's not as difficult as many seem to think it is. I further contend that most folks reading this could achieve that level of skill fairly fast, once they believed it possible.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Point is, if given equal capacities in the same size gun, would he still favor the 9mm because he thinks it's better? Or is there acknowledgement that a .40 or .45 are better in a fight?

I think his opinion that 9mm is better everywhere.

I recently sold my G23 and picked up a G19 because the G23 was more difficult to shoot, and ammunition was expensive.

I'm quite happy with my choice, i can afford to shoot more, and i shoot better.

The only difference was caliber.

The price difference in ammunition really has an effect when you start shooting a lot in practice or in classes.

http://www.ammoman.com/p/324/9mm-federal-124-grain
price, 1000 rounds, 299.

http://www.ammoman.com/p/77/speer-9mm-gold-dot-124-grain-jhp-53618
price, 1000 rounds, 450


http://www.ammoman.com/p/137/federal-40-sw-155-grain-target-ae40r2
price, 1000 rounds, 349

http://www.ammoman.com/p/316/40-sw-speer-factory-new-gold-dot-hp-155-grain-53961
Price, 1000 rounds, 499

 

[David E]

I've always been a proponent of going with the gun/caliber YOU can control that's at least a 9mm or .38

Of course then, we need to define "control," as that means different things to different people.

But being able to afford the ammo to shoot is critical in reaching any decent level of skill.

9mm has a lot going for it, with perhaps the lower cost of ammo alone outweighing the virtues of the more expensive calibers.

 

[Bubba613]

Since you don't like my stated observation, perhaps you can tell us what identifies someone as "serious" in your experience

Anyone who does anything other than throw the gun in the bottom drawer of his dresser is serious, imo.

 

[David E]

So, if they throw the gun in the top drawer after maybe firing 6 shots, they're "serious?"

Ok. I admit that is a standard I had not considered.......

 

[Skribs]

David, I was just thinking, you talk about follow-up shots not being any faster with 9 than .45...what's your take on companies designing HD ammo based more on fast follow-up shots than on terminal effects? i.e. a lighter, faster bullet with less energy and momentum to "increase follow-up shots and reduce overpenetration."

Specifically, do you think that these bullets would have faster follow-up shots compared to a generic, heavier-weight bullet. (such as a 155 gr .40 vs. a 180 gr .40).

 

[David E]

David, I was just thinking, you talk about follow-up shots not being any faster with 9 than .45..

With proper technique and sufficient practice in similar sized guns of the same action type, yes.

what's your take on companies designing HD ammo based more on fast follow-up shots than on terminal effects? i.e. a lighter, faster bullet with less energy and momentum to "increase follow-up shots and reduce over penetration."

1) Marketing

2) Realization that many don't practice enough (if at all)

Specifically, do you think that these bullets would (ALLOW) faster follow-up shots compared to a generic, heavier-weight bullet. (such as a 155 gr .40 vs. a 180 gr .40).

During my recent testing of shot-to-shot times between a 9mm and .45, I also included a .22 Buckmark. I averaged about 1/100th of a second faster (.16) between shots than with either the 9 or .45, (.17) but groups were also smaller: tennis ball compared to 6-8" softball, so there is a point where less kick matters.

If you take a .45 acp +P 200 grain JHP Gold Dot out of a 3" lightweight Kimber and compare it to a watered down "defense" 9mm load out of a Springfield EMP, I'd be shocked if a shooter didn't fire the EMP better and faster.

 

[Skribs]

I also wondered, right after I made my last post, how the 9 vs. .45 thing works when shooting 1-handed (as you might have to in a SD situation), especially with a smaller-framed, less-athletic person like myself.

 

[David E]

I wondered the same thing, but I was pretty tired when I did my recent testing, so I didn't do any one hand comparisons.

Next time, I'll do it, but when I go out, actually test and report certain things the problems are:

1) no one believes me

2) I "did it wrong"

3) it's nothing more than "ballistic masturbation." (yeah, that's a quote!)

4) Various other dismissive/derogatory remarks

All from folks that never tested anything themselves.

And all that is fine, since it doesn't matter what _I_ can do, it only matters what you can do. (that said, there is nothing extraordinary about my skill, nearly anyone could achieve the same level with practice)

I suggest you go out, do some drills to determine for yourself what gun/caliber/ load works best for YOU. Do not simply accept so-called conventional thinking on such matters without checking it out yourself.

 

[GEM]

SWAT has an article this month where the author is moving from a 45 to a 9. More capacity in the gun and easier to shoot.

Stopping power is equivalent with modern ammo - equally crappy handgun level.

 

[TexasRedneck]

FYI.....news hittin' the wire right now is that Gomez has passed. No details known at this time.