Pillow head lean?

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newbuckeye

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So I finally took a CCW class and the instructor stumped me. Having only 20 some years experience, I know I haven't heard or seen everything, but here it is.

The instructor was going over how to determine your dominant eye. After all present had figured that out, he went into who was cross dominant.

I have known I am (right handed shooter, left dominant eye) for a long time. Dad taught me to shoot with both eyes open. Problem solved.

Then, he said that if you are cross eye dominant, you should LEAN your head over to shoot with your strong eye. WHAT?? When did that get added to the gospel? He called it the pillow head lean.

Anybody else heard of this??
 
I've not heard it explained that way before, and can't really see much reason to lean your head...

If you are cross-dominant obviously your "weak" side eye wants to and is more capable of handling the precision sighting duties. (And will, unless you deliberately close than eye and force your strong-side eye to take over.)

When shooting handguns, there is plenty of flexibility in your stance to correct the axis line of the handgun to allow it to align with your dominant eye. Most shooters will do this without even noticing that they are. Your wrists turn imperceptibly to line the gun up with your dominant eye -- no need, or benefit, to tilting your head. In fact, that will throw off your balance and natural point of aim.

Where the trouble starts is with long arms where your dominant eye cannot align with the sights (or barrel & bead with a shotgun) with a strong-side shoulder mount and cheek weld.

The greatest success in those cases comes in having the shooter mount long-guns on their dominant side. In other words, a left eye dominant shooter should mount rifles and shotguns on their left shoulder -- even if that's their "weak" side.

It is far easier to teach your hands to perform the manipulations weak handed than it is to force an eye dominance change.
 
When I was taught at the young age of 6 I could not close my left eye worth a darn so my dad had me close the right and lean my head off to the right to sight the gun. Then I was introduced to rifles and still leaned my head way over to get a sight picture. My shooting was quite accurate but my dad said I looked goofy as hell and taught me to shoot left handed. That was 40 years ago and I still shoot lefty both pistol and rifle but I am right handed, go figure.
Good luck
God speed
 
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When I read the OP, the first thing I thought about was the Quell System shooting position...but I work suspect that the instructor was too young to be familiar with this...and was likely making it up as he was going.

I usually just have students line up their sights with their left eye...or change to shooting with the opposite hand, like Robbie Leatham does.

For those too young to remember...or just not into the more eclectic shooting styles...the Quell system was a target and stance to allow fast accurate shots under pressure with the ASP 9mm pistol. The stance was like a tight Chapman (bicep locking into pec) and the head was leaned over to line up the non-dominate eye with the sights. It wasn't widely accepted and it's greatest short coming was that it was too rigid to track a moving target
 
I've noticed the last few years that if I can't shoot a pistol to save my life with my right eye and i'm right handed. I ain't to shabby when I use my left eye. Rifles I have to shoot the right way, otherwise it feels funny.

I guess i'm half a pillowhead :)
 
so basically, the shooting method that you have used for 20 years, was said to be inferior?

whats the average distance for a home defense shooting situation 3-7 yards?

all im saying is that if what your doing works, and works good, why mess with it
 
all im saying is that if what your doing works, and works good, why mess with it
Some folks like to keep improving. If you aren't always trying to become more efficient, you're falling behind as the skill set is always evolving
 
Getting better at shooting is a process. :)

FWIW, every class I've taken teaches me something.

As a quick note, there is no reason to close your eye when shooting a handgun for defensive purposes.
 
I think leaning the head is probably a bad idea. It's awkward. It also strains the neck muscles.

A fellow I teach with is right handed and left eye dominant. He keeps his head erect and turns it to the right slightly. That gets the sights lined up with his dominant eye. And he shoots with both eyes open.

I do something similar when I shoot left handed. I'm right handed and strongly right eye dominant. So when I shoot lefty, I tilt the gun to the right slightly and turn my head to the left slightly, and that assures that sights line up with my right (dominant) eye. I also shoot with both eyes open.

I've heard of leaning the head, but I think a cross dominant shooter is much better off turning the head while keeping it erect.
 
I do something similar when I shoot left handed. I'm right handed and strongly right eye dominant. So when I shoot lefty, I tilt the gun to the right slightly and turn my head to the left slightly, and that assures that sights line up with my right (dominant) eye. I also shoot with both eyes open.

A very good point. When you shoot weak/support hand drills (with a handgun) you don't switch eyes just because you switched hands. (Though with a long arm you do have to.)
 
Yes, I ahve heard of it, I have not heard of it being called the pillow head lean, but if it gets the point across, then who cares.

With a modern iso stance, the technique is pretty common for compensating for cross-eye dominance if you want to keep both eyes open.

As for cross eye dominance being self-correcting? Uhh... maybe. Here's a thing, if a guy has cross eye dominance and self corrects, nobody likely knows or cares. Which might explain why every new shooter I have helped who was cross eye dominant was never self correcting. They all needed something to overcome it and stop shooting poorly because of it.
 
He keeps his head erect and turns it to the right slightly. That gets the sights lined up with his dominant eye. And he shoots with both eyes open.

That's what I was told, too. From what I understood from the OP though, isn't that basically what he was told?
 
isn't that basically what he was told?
Doesn't seem like it...
...you should LEAN your head over to shoot with your strong eye.

Now, I've heard lots of people use the wrong phrase when giving an instruction, and that may be what happened here.

But the difference between turning your hands slightly to align the pistol with your dominant eye (...what you should do...) and tilting your head over to one side to bring your dominant eye in behind the gun (...which is wrong for several reasons...) seems pretty distinct.
 
Just because someone says they’re an expert….

When I was qualifying with the M9, a yearly thing for aircrew, one of the CATM guys taught the ‘cup & saucer’ method of holding the gun. This was very popular at the time, but I was always more comfortable with the parallel thumbs hold (whatever it’s called). He corrected me once in the classroom and even tried to change my hold on the firing line. I ignored him. Shoot the way that works for you.
 
Some folks like to keep improving. If you aren't always trying to become more efficient, you're falling behind as the skill set is always evolving

aint that what new stances are for? and practicing the same way over and over again makes you better right?

so how long would it take you to learn if the new style was actually better then your old style, by the time you learn how to shoot the new way, your no longer in practice the old way

id say it would be better to kee fewer steps in the process, but, i have a right dominate hand and eye, so my opinion carrie sless weight then usual hear
 
aint that what new stances are for? and practicing the same way over and over again makes you better right?

You bring up an interesting conundrum! Perfect practice of a skill leads to perfect execution of that skill. But changes -- which may be improvements (or may not) -- obviously involve altering the way you execute that skill, thus deviating from your perfect form.

So how do you improve, and how do you decide to adopt better techniques?

That is a tough question.

Many shooters simply don't. What they're doing works well enough as far as they're concerned, and they'll keep doing that thing forever. There is a little bit of "fail" in that, but also at least some wisdom as well. The Russians have a saying to the effect that "great" is the enemy of "good enough." In shooting, however, only you can decide if what you're doing is "good enough," and you may be right, or wrong no matter what you choose. :)

In competitive circles, this is a lot easier to answer. Everyone watches everyone else. Everyone is constantly rating themselves against the curve. Everyone is always looking for an advantage. If someone tries something new, he'll know fairly shortly if he's beating his old abilities with that new technique. Others will see what he's doing, try it, and either adopt it or abandon it. If it is actually worthwhile, the best shooters will soon be adopting it and teaching it. Competition, while being disconnected from "real life" in some significant ways, is always a great crucible for learning and advancement of a skill.

The things learned or proven through competition results do pass quickly into the training community (where dogma steps aside to results among the more honest and thoughtful teachers at the very least), and trickles out to the larger shooting population through word of mouth, the press, and though communication centers like our forum and others.

In the end, you'll just have to try something to find out if it helps YOU, personally, be more accurate and/or faster. For some, the "unlearning" curve is too steep or is not worth the disruption of their larger "system." Thus the reason we have different schools of thought, different disciplines, different styles, etc. But time tends to erase those systems that cannot keep pace, as the generations change. (You won't see serious practical shooters or self-defense instructors using the old "duelist" stance these days ... but it took a few generations to die off.) So things tend toward an ideal over time.

Still, that doesn't stop any one person from convincing a few others to try some nonsensical or counter-productive method -- and even getting them to pay him to do so. Always do your research. Verify what anyone tells you against what you already know and what other trusted sources have to say.
 
kingcheese said:
9mmepiphany said:
Some folks like to keep improving. If you aren't always trying to become more efficient, you're falling behind as the skill set is always evolving
aint that what new stances are for? and practicing the same way over and over again makes you better right?

so how long would it take you to learn if the new style was actually better then your old style, by the time you learn how to shoot the new way, your no longer in practice the old way
Pretty much depends on what you can do and how well you can do it.

Practicing the same way over and over, just makes you better at doing whatever it is that you're doing. If you're doing something like jerking the trigger, you become an expert at jerking the trigger; and that is not a good thing. If you're doing something poorly, why would you want to become an expert at doing it that way?

And while standing and shooting at targets is nice, in a very limited and limiting skill set.

If, for example, you're interested in self defense, and nasty event often take place a short distances, things like how fast you can do things well becomes an issue. And being able to move and shoot and shoot while moving also can improve your chances for survival. Then there are skills related to reloading and malfunction clearance and multiple threats.

Can you do these things? How well can you do them? How do you know how well you can do them?

Some of us go to school to learn to do those sorts of things and to help measure how proficiently we can do them. (Here's an article I wrote about my recent Intermediate Handgun class at Gunsite and the things we did in class.)

You can never know ahead of time what you will need to be able to do to solve your problem. The more you can do, and the better you can do it, the luckier you'll be.

Sam1911 said:
...Still, that doesn't stop any one person from convincing a few others to try some nonsensical or counter-productive method -- and even getting them to pay him to do so. Always do your research. Verify what anyone tells you against what you already know and what other trusted sources have to say.
And there's that. There is snake oil to be found in any field of endeavor. So beware of the self proclaimed expert and favor the people who others you have reason to respect call experts.
 
so how long would it take you to learn if the new style was actually better then your old style, by the time you learn how to shoot the new way, your no longer in practice the old way

As Sam has posted, you'll never know if something is better until you give it a fair chance...assuming you'd like to keep improving.

This is indeed the value of competition. Serious competitors will try just about anything if they think it will give them an edge. They don't get as emotionally involved in techniques or equipment, they will pickup new things and just as easily discard them. Plus they will put work them hard, plenty of reps, over a short period of time.

As one becomes more experienced, one sees a new technique, sees the underlying theory it is based on and can filter it through one's past experiences. This saves time in not having to try every new technique that comes along. But I would thing a new technique, based on a solid foundation, should justify at least a couple of months trial.

It isn't like you lose the ability to shoot accurately, if you had it before, in trying new techniques. The basic ability to shoot accurately still comes down to seeing the sights quickly and pressing the trigger correctly
 
Serious competitors will try just about anything if they think it will give them an edge. They don't get as emotionally involved in techniques or equipment, they will pickup new things and just as easily discard them. Plus they will put work them hard, plenty of reps, over a short period of time.
Very well said. A novice shooter, or even an experienced one but one who hasn't ever made it a studied skill, will have little understanding of how to evaluate the relative worth of a technique, or how to critique whether it is taking him to a new level ... or just giving him a new crutch to mask faults.

A student of shooting will analyze a technique through a trial period and give it a pass or fail based on the rate and extent of their progress in developing that skill relative to their known standards.

When I switch between guns I'm using for competition -- say from a striker fired auto to a revolver, or a 1911 -- I know I'm going to invest about two months of practice, and some number of thousands of rounds, into bringing the techniques for that gun back up to my normal skill level. If I'm switching to a new gun I want to try to "campaign" in competition, I know that's more like 6 months and maybe 5,000 rounds to really have the "feel" for it.

In the same way, if I was to adopt a significantly new technique, I'd know I would be investing a not insignificant amount of time and ammo into proving it (or disproving it) to myself.

As one becomes more experienced, one sees a new technique, sees the underlying theory it is based on and can filter it through one's past experiences. This saves time in not having to try every new technique that comes along. But I would thing a new technique, based on a solid foundation, should justify at least a couple of months trial.
Yes! It's like the "sniff" test but more scientific. :) How much of what I know and do already does this new technique conflict with? What detriments to my fundamentals do I risk if I adopt this? What will its impact be on my whole "system" of running a gun and/or response to violent attack? Etc.
 
Sam1911 said:
...A student of shooting will analyze a technique through a trial period and give it a pass or fail based on the rate and extent of their progress in developing that skill relative to their known standards....
And there's often a question of actually measuring progress (or lack thereof). That's another thing competition is useful for, as are classes. And it's another reason to have a timer available.
 
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