Pistol caliber carbines for self defense?

[Hawk]

There's a lot more lever action pistol caliber carbines being brought up than I would have guessed.

Interesting.

 

[Sniper X]

costs and benifits

Depends on if you live in the city, or country. I'd personally stay with a pistol in a pistol cartridge for self/home defense for many many reasons, and a carbine for if the fight is or goes outside on my 10 acres of land. But not many city dwellers live on ten acres! A pistol is by far a better CQB rig than anything else, even a shotgun. In the confines of a dwelling, there is no way unless you train train train, you will be able to use a carbine or shotgun as quickly or accurately as most intruder situations happen from 0~7feet away. Get a snuby .357 or some 9mm or .380 pistol, shoot the hell out of it to get good with it then take the lever gun out pig hunting!

 

[student]

I find them to have less muzzle flash and noise (both important for home defense) and can be fired more accurately and rapidly than a handgun with identical ammo. To me their trade off is reduced concealability, range and potentially penetration (depending on what you are comparing it to as some .223 may penetrate less). But for home defense, none of those are really positive aspects of a weapon. If I leave the home with a longarm then a real rifle caliber is better than a pistol caliber if I am carrying a rifle sized hunk of steel/wood/plastic, and a real handgun can accompany it for concealable backup.

 

[borrowedtime69]

good pistol caliber carbine

i would think that the Ruger Deerfield semi-auto Carbine in .44 mag would be a great defense weapon.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I feel the need to justify my responses so here goes:

For the record, I think if you are going with a long gun a rifle caliber cartridge is a better option. I'm not sure how to keep the colors and formatting so I'll just use red for my responses here.

- they are very accurate out to 50 yards
50 yard or more and you'll have a hard time arguing to the prosecuting attourney it was self defense

I'd rather take a head shot on a BG with a hostage with a long gun.
As would I. I haven't yet encountered a 50 yard living room but I'd rather use a .223 at that range. My point was at those ranges, on most properties, the guy is well off your land (in a suburban setting). If I was shot at, I'd return fire also.

- usually provide more performance than a pistol of the same caliber
Pistol caliber rounds are optimized for pistol length barrels. They may offer a few more fps but it shouldn't affect performance

More FPS is always good.
I can't argue with more fps but if the tradeoff is going from a small pistol to a long gun that requires both hands I'd reconsider caliber

- you can hang lights and lasers off them more easily than a pistol
That's very important if you are a mall ninja

Every defensive gun should have a flash light on it. Lasers work pretty well in the dark too.
I guess the "hang lights and lasers off them" part got me. Sounds mall ninja. A light is a necessity on a long gun since your hands are occupied although the idea of giving something to shoot at before you find the BG is up for debate.

- a sling frees the users hands - a pistol is either in your hand or in a holster
True, but you shouldn't take your hands off your weapon in a serious situation

Sometimes you have to take your hand/s off the gun.
What I'm referring to here is something like opening a doorknob. Swinging a long gun with one hand isn't easy, even if it's on a sling. Calling 911 if you got the guy to surrender would be easier with a sling (imagine trying to do that without one) but you should still keep your firing hand and the muzzle on the BG.

- carbines can be easier to shoot well than a pistol especially for people who don't practice a lot.
That's true but there's also the argument that it makes it easier for the BG to take the gun away from you (if you get that close, which hopefully you won't) especially if you don't have the upper body strength to retain it. you also can't really fire from retention.

The long gun is easier to retain in a gun grab situation.
You have more leverage. So does the bad guy. That's fine if you are a full sized male. A 100lb woman might find it taken away from her rather quickly. A handgun you can tuck in close to your body and fire instead of trying to get the muzzle pointed back at the BG while his hands are on the barrel.[/QUOTE]

 

[doubleg]

- you can hang lights and lasers off them more easily than a pistol
That's very important if you are a mall ninja

 

[ForeverArmed]

For my $0.02, I think a pistol-caliber carbine is definitely preferable to a handgun. Although stopping power isn't that much better from the carbine, being able to shoot rapidly and accurately is much easier with a long gun than with a pistol, especially when you're under extreme stress and your fine motor skills go to hell. That alone makes the PCC much better than a handgun. Long guns are a bit more awkward to maneuver with in close quarters, but as long as you're careful (e.g., don't walk around corners leading with the barrel such that someone can grab it), that problem can be minimized.

For better stopping power, you'll have to go with a rifle or a shotgun. I personally would prefer one of these because of the greater lethality -- not that I'd enjoy killing someone, but because if my life is on the line, I want the most effective weapon possible. A shotgun with 00 Buck is probably the most effective short-range weapon you can wield inside a house if you're shooting against someone who isn't wearing body armor. It's the easiest type of shoulder-fired arm to hit with, and it has enormous stopping power.

If you're worried about someone with body armor breaking into your home (e.g., gun confiscators like we saw in New Orleans after Katrina), then you NEED to have a rifle. 5.56 NATO (i.e., steel core) is still widely available and should be stocked up on, IMO. 7.62x39 will also do, but steel core is getting harder to find and is often corrosive. A .308 is probably a bit much for indoor defense.

The big disadvantage to rifles being used indoors is that you won't be able to hear anything but ringing after shooting them once or twice -- unless you have a pair of electronic earmuffs. The PCCs might not be so bad, but I've never fired one indoors.

Regardless of what long arm you choose, I agree with others who say you should definitely have a good light on it. The light helps with seeing and identifying targets, and it will tend to blind your attacker(s).

 

[SniperStraz]

I haven't read what everyone else says...

...but if the UZI and MP-5 are good enough for SWAT, Special Forces, and US Secret Service, Its good enough for SD. On the other hand, there is no reason to limit yourself. If, however you like them and feel more comfortable with them, I'd like suggest the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine. Its cheap but accurate. (at least thats what I hear) G'Luck

 

[LoadedDrum]

I would not mind using a pistol caliber carbine for self defense as I shoot better with any rifle than I do with any pistol. However, a shotgun will always be my first choice.

 

[qajaq59]

Hmmm.......

Robber suddenly wakes me up. The room is half lit. I'm half asleep. My stress level is up in the stratosphere. What would you bet that I'm a better shot with a double barrel 12 gauge loaded with buck shot?

 

[Levercaster]

Cowboy Assault Rifle

Another point for consideration is that pistol caliber carbines are pretty short. In the neighborhood of 33 to 36 inches overall in length.

Everyone has raised great points. The most common factors to consider seem to be muzzle flash, over penetration, accuracy and stopping power. The "gunfight" should be over in two rounds max.

Levercaster

 

[perpster]

If we leave out shotguns from the discussion (and get back to the post starter's initial question "do pistol caliber carbines make sense for home defense"), IMHO the answer is yes, depending on the circumstances. For example, in an urban/suburban environment overpenetration of walls is a real concern.

One thing that I like about the notion is KISS: have a handgun and carbine that use the same ammo. Grab them both and spare rounds if at all possible. If either weapon needs to be reloaded you have the options of using the other weapon OR reloading from spares without having to look or guess if you're getting the correct ammo OR canibalize rounds from the other weapon if it's not needed in your tactical judgment. Plus, it simplifies ammo buying, storage and inventorying. Usually costs less to buy pistol ammo, too.

To paraphrase an earlier poster, is it the BEST home defense solution? Probably not. Is it a VIABLE home defense solution? Definately. I agree that in many circumstances a shotgun is a better choice, but that doesn't mean a pistol caliber carbine can't be.

 

[greyeyezz]

I'd love to see a 357 Sig carbine from someone..........anyone.

 

[rustymaggot]

isnt the .30 carbine cartridge just about the same thing as a .357 sig? i mean, they do the same job dont they?

 

[P. Plainsman]

isnt the .30 carbine cartridge just about the same thing as a .357 sig? i mean, they do the same job dont they?

You can use heavier bullets in the .357 SIG (110 gr vs. 147 gr -- notable difference), the .357 SIG makes a wider hole, and there are a lot more, and better, defensive bullet designs available in .355 caliber than there are for the .30 Carbine.

 

[Cosmoline]

This has been the subject of other extensive threads. The bottom line is, the nay-sayers who think you should only use a short gun are badly misinformed. A carbine will give you:

--Better accuracy
--Better stopping power
--More control over bullet expansion and hence less overpentration risks
--Better weapon retention
--Better light mounting and sighting options
etc

What you give up is CCW, and that's about it. So by all means get a carbine to match your CCW firearm and use it as a home defense or truck gun.

 

[Hawk]

--Better light mounting and sighting options

This should probably be qualified as to selected pistol caliber carbines.

The surprisingly high number of people listing Cowboy Assault Weapons likely don't enjoy a lot of light and laser options - I know my Henry wouldn't take to the things gracefully.

In fact, it would appear the relatively new CX Storm is in a distinct minority. Throw in Hi-Points and the occasional Ruger and the "light and laser" crowd might still be a minority.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, Wild West makes mounts for levergun lights and several outfits make scout scope mounts. Barring that electrical tape works fine. Recoil is minimal out of these carbines. Up here, it's not even unusual to see tactical lights taped onto 1895's--at least when they're for DLP not hunting.

 

[M110]

My Puma 92 in .375 with the 16" barrel is a very handy defense rifle. It now share the spot next to my 870 in the home defense "go to guns". Plus I don't think it was mentioned in this thread, but a good smack to the head with the metal plate on the butt end, will cave the head in of an attacker very nicely, IF that option was needed

 

[Cosmoline]

Or you can try a patented Rio Bravo Smackdown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKrAUoD5dtc&mode=related&search=

 

[SniperStraz]

--More control over bullet expansion and hence less overpentration risks

How would you have more control over expansion? You may have a better chance of a good expansion, but I dunno about control. I bring this up not to contradict you, but rather in hopes of learning something new.

 

[M110]

The "El Dorado" smack down would work too. * The scene where Robert Mitchem clobbers Ed Asner with his 94 *

 

[Grey54956]

A pistol caliber carbine is a good choice for home defense.

The effects of recoil are greatly mitigated by weapon weight and being shoulder fired. This means follow up shots will be quick and fairly accurate. Magazines are usually high capacity pistol magazines, which is good.

Remember, don't clear your house unless necessary. Hole up and ambush if necessary while waiting for help. Shoot as often as necessary. If you are going to pll the trigger once, hit it again for good measure.

 

[OpFlash]

I think a pistol carbine is the best weapon for home defense, over even a shotgun. They are short and handy, and immensely easier to achieve hits with than a pistol. They will not leave you deaf. It is very easy to squeeze off multiple rounds VERY fast and VERY accurately (assuming it's semi auto). A shot gun is no easier to hit someone with (contrary to popular belief) and if you miss you are stunned by the noise and recoil and cannot make a follow up shot nearly as quickly or accurately. They ARE more powerful than pistols of similar caliber. A 9mm carbine will produce .357 magnum velocities and energy.

If you have to clear the house do it with a pistol held close to the body, but if not dial 911 and wait in the bedroom with your carbine.

Grey54956 I didn't read your post before I posted because I only read the first few, but we said almost the same things!

 

[de]

I didn't read all the posts (because I'm lazy) but in the first 3 or 4 posts it was stated that carbines offer a few more FPS than a handgun with the same loading. How about between 400 & 600 fps more depending on the type of powder. Example; 17 grains of H110 behind a 158 grain jacketed HP in a 357 magnum carbine gives 1829 fps. The same load in a 6" barrel revolver 1389 fps. That's a difference of 440 fps. So, I guess you could say a carbine gives a few more fps. This gives the carbine (in this case a 357mag) a power level close to 3030, inside 100 yds.
Next, let's look at penetration. The 357mag is noted for good penetration. Can you imagine adding another 440 fps to this. Home defense yes, but careful. Also as far as a prosecuter not accepting self-defense at 100 yards. Who made that rule? Shooting a perp at ANY range is allowed if he is a threat, or has already harmed someone and is fleeing. Self defense is not black and white. The only black and white is you are going to have to show just cause for deadly force. Unless of course you are in the Chicago area. There you will be prosecuted regardless of the circumstances.