9-7:
On this subject and in this particular thread, it is my opinion that you are confused, or arguing in bad faith. I see little to be gained by exchanging more posts.
But, in interests of fairness and with care toward the possibility that you are confused rather than arguing in bad faith, I will make one, last venture.
jfruser in post
#114 responding to DZ:
jfruser said:
I also reject the defining of torture down. This is a tactic used when accusations of "torture policy" founder on the rocks of fact and reality. The methods used on the worst terrorists (such as KSM) we have captured are not torture, unless our boys are tortured as a matter of policy at Basic, AIT, RIP, & whatnot.
9-7 in post
#118 responding to the above:
9-7 said:
That's a fallacious argument, our soldiers are subjected to such measures in programs such as SERE on a voluntary basis...
And yes, it is torture when our soldiers are being subjected to it...
Here 9-7 is:
1. Interjecting the concept of volition into the argument
2. Defining torture down
jfruser in post
#120 responding to 9-7:
jfruser said:
9-7 in post
#122 responding to jfruser:
9-7 said:
Sorry jfruser, you're not making the argument. You tried to make the case that since some people voluntarily submit themselves to torture, it must be okay to do to others involuntarily because if we do it to others when they consent to it, it's not really torture when we do it to someone else.
Voluntary consent has everything to do with the hole in your argument, wishing it away doesn't change that.
Here you are again:
1. Defining torture down
2. Trying to insert volition into the argument
9-7 in post
#135 responding to jfruser's post
#134, whci has not been reproduced due to quite enough of it in 9-7's response:
9-7 said:
jfruser said:
Uh, no, that is not the case I made. The argument is that the interrogations of captured unlawful enemy combatants use techniques similar to those that persuade callow youths to become responsible fighting men. Our boys in the service are not tortured by training cadre. If that were to happen and detected, I would expect the perpetrator to be punished as has happened in the past.
Um, no, this is what you said:
“The methods used on the worst terrorists (such as KSM) we have captured are not torture, unless our boys are tortured as a matter of policy at Basic, AIT, RIP, & whatnot.”
The English language is a many and varied thing, with many ways to convey similar concepts. IMO, both my statments, the first in BBCode quote & the second in grammatical quote convey the roughly same concept using different words. 9-7, your use of "Um, no, this is what you said," implies that you do not grasp that.
9-7 said:
You made the argument that what we do to terrorists is not torture unless what we do to our soldiers is also torture...
No "unless" about it. Neither is torture, period. No caveats, modifiers, alibis, weasel-words, or conditions necessary.
9-7 said:
jfruser said:
The argument is that the interrogations of captured unlawful enemy combatants use techniques similar to those that persuade callow youths to become responsible fighting men.
What techniques are those?...So tell me, exactly what techniques are you talking about other than things like sleep deprivation, waterboarding, starvation or noise stress?
First off, why "other than?" Any list of interrogation techniques would not be complete without them, properly described**. You want a list of the ways our NCOs use to train our boys? Join up for a hitch as an enlisted man & take notes. Of those you listed, the only one that I did not experience at Basic & AIT was waterboarding. I also managed to soldier on through several other techniques favored by training cadre with my soul and dignity intact. I also used them on others when I thought necessary to drive home a point without endagering my soul.
9-7 said:
jfruser said:
As I said, volition does not apply...
Irrelevant.
I keep writing that...
Insisting that our servicemen are tortured in Basic, AIT, RIP is an expression of ignorance. Even SERE's emphasis on resisting interrogation, does not use torture.
Truly, I am not impressed with your knowledge of the treatment of our boys in the more rigorous, non-"Gentleman" service training schools and the documentation pertaining to what techniques have been used by our boys to extract information from illegal enemy combatants.*
After the Korean War our armed services came to the conclusion that we needed training programs designed to increase our boys' ability to withstand interrogation. They also decriminalized giving information to the enemy while undergoing interrogation, understanding that even non-tortuous techniques can eventually break down most given time.
* Once again, I try to be charitable and assume ignorance rather than bad faith.
** "Starvation" is an hysterical descriptive term. Disrupting meal times & content is a good way to ratchet up stress. Unfortunately, our prisoners at Guantanimo Bay show an average weight
gain of several pounds.