Point Shooting

[Matthew Temkin]

California was the CHP under Lou Choido who added point shooting to his agency along with aimed fire and reported a very high hit rate.
Lou told me that a lot of their gunfights occurred around vehicles and in many cases were at distances of 15+ yards so I am not sure how many were won via point shooting.
Alaska was the Anchorage PD who claimed a 90% hit rate with the MT.
Jeff Hall was doing the majority of the training and he was a devoted student of Jeff Cooper.
Both were/are first rate departments who train often so that probably has a lot to do with their success

 

[Kendal Black]

California was the CHP under Lou Choido who added point shooting to his agency along with aimed fire and reported a very high hit rate.
Lou told me that a lot of their gunfights occurred around vehicles and in many cases were at distances of 15+ yards so I am not sure how many were won via point shooting.
Alaska was the Anchorage PD who claimed a 90% hit rate with the MT.
Jeff Hall was doing the majority of the training and he was a devoted student of Jeff Cooper.
Both were/are first rate departments who train often so that probably has a lot to do with their success

Thank you! That was it exactly. So then, all of you get off the Internet, get your butts to the range and bust some caps. Over and out.

 

[LiveLife]

"The secret to learning how to call your shots is practice."

If you haven't already, incorporate "shot calling" to your range practice drills which I consider prerequisite to effective point shooting - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/10/18/calling-your-shots/

Having shot USPSA matches, I believe shot calling is match shooting equivalent of point shooting. The deliberate practice of shot calling over time relies less and less on the use of sights to the point focus on the target becomes primary - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/first-uspsa-match-today.809836/#post-10356577

Both were/are first rate departments who train often so that probably has a lot to do with their success

Practice...Practice....Practice

But there are SO many things that we do out of sheer muscle memory ... like turning on the light switch, etc. ... done with precision without looking.

Do you look at the ignition of your car when you insert your key? Most people will insert the key without having to look at the location of ignition.

Point shooting became integral part of my range drills - Repeat until proficient

I believe deliberate practice and sufficient trigger time are significant factors for being proficient in point shooting.

Later, some regional USPSA match shooters talked to me about "zen" of shooting and to elevate my shot calling, focus on the target only (not on the front sight) and make holes "appear" on target.

Now ... I have the shooters focus on the holes and to make necessary adjustments so the holes appear on the target where they want them to appear.

The regional shooter was in fact describing an application of "zen of shooting" where you practice enough and trust yourself enough to not only hope to hit your POA but to make POI holes "appear" where you want them to - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/page-4#post-10435078

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If you practice and intent to use point shooting, stick to one make and model of gun.

The ergononics of it are sensitive on lots of factors, and success with one gun does not always translate to success with another when you are not using the sights.

 

[Robert]

At >5 yards I'll point shoot. Anything outside of that and I use aimed fire. While it is not taught at work it is encouraged that you give it a try and see if it works for you. I find that it does, at least for me. Inside of 3 yards I am almost always shooting from retention and moving anyway.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

At >5 yards I'll point shoot. Anything outside of that and I use aimed fire. While it is not taught at work it is encouraged that you give it a try and see if it works for you. I find that it does, at least for me. Inside of 3 yards I am almost always shooting from retention and moving anyway.

It is my belief that point shooting gets a bad rap because rather than being taught people try to figure it out on their own.
I went that confusing route for years until in 1991when I found an instructor who gave me the technique in a matter of hours.

 

[LiveLife]

I believe while trigger time alone can help, Point Shooting requires deliberate practice based on sound shooting fundamentals - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857

Now, I have them stand at 5 yards but dry fire while watching the front sight. I have them dry fire until FRONT SIGHT DOES NOT MOVE when the hammer/striker is released (THIS IS KEY to Point Shooting and reducing trigger/grip induced flyers).

Instructor comes in and first thing they tell you to do is focus on the sight, squeeze trigger to the rear, try to relax ... It's all F***ing Bulls**t!

As a rule, first thing you should learn how to do is pull the trigger without moving the gun. You don't need to load the gun. You don't need a target. You need to be able to fire the gun without altering the attitude and the direction the gun is pointed.

Until you can do that, aiming is meaningless ... If you jerk the gun 6 to 8 inches lower, it doesn't matter whether you aimed to begin with.

Point the gun at the target. Don't worry about the sights yet and pull the triggger. Click. Click. Click. Now live fire. Aim. Aim. Aim. STOP! I don't need you aiming. You will miss the target by moving the gun out of alignment by jerking, flinching, pushing and pulling ... Learn how to jerk the trigger without moving the gun.

If you do not move the gun when the hammer/striker falls, the bullet will go where the gun is pointed - This is the fundamental key to point shooting.

"Shooting is really simple ... there are three things you really have to do:

1. Hold the gun really tight (Don't try to relax)
2. Point the gun at the target where you want to hit it
3. Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun

That's all the secrets to shooting ... Not necessarily easy but it is very simple"

This is Point Shooting simplified, according to Rob Leatham.



Jerry Miculek discuss speed and accuracy with Bill Drill (6 fast shots on same target with repeat on 2 shots to 3 targets)

"Good technique is foundation of all your shooting ... Watch my muzzle ... I want to have a technique to hold the pistol"



Another point shooting method (although I prefer pulling the trigger with my index finger and pointing with my knuckle)

 

[Deaf Smith]

There is a distance past 2yds and under 4 where retention doesn't work and it may not make sense to stick the gun all the way out in the BG's face.

No. Retention, where the weapon is held at 'rib side' and ones thumb is used to cant the barrel so the slide does not jam can be used easily past 3 yards. It is great for indexing the weapon as it allows, like most other methods, to square your chest to the target. Just takes some practice, just as anything else does.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

I believe while trigger time alone can help, Point Shooting requires deliberate practice based on sound shooting fundamentals - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857




If you do not move the gun when the hammer/striker falls, the bullet will go where the gun is pointed - This is the fundamental key to point shooting.

"Shooting is really simple ... there are three things you really have to do:

1. Hold the gun really tight (Don't try to relax)
2. Point the gun at the target where you want to hit it
3. Pull the trigger as fast as you can without moving the gun

That's all the secrets to shooting ... Not necessarily easy but it is very simple"

This is Point Shooting simplified, according to Rob Leatham.

It's called trigger control. And pointing the weapon at the target is the index (but if you consider the whole target as the 'target' you will see a rather buckshot size group. Like I said, just bring the weapon up AS IF YOU CAN SEE THE SIGHTS. Do it the same way each time, wither you use the sights or not. Practice will internalize the presentation so it becomes automatic. Sound trigger control will keep the weapon right were you want the bullet to go.

Deaf

 

[Deaf Smith]

Then again at least he--unlike the article that he shared --agrees that there are times that the sights cannot be used and alternative concepts are necessary.

It's not an 'alternative concept.' It's part of Jeff Cooper's "Modern Technique". Been there a long time but few people really try to understand his technique in depth (yes uses the "Weaver Stance", and "Big bore semi-automatic", but if you just look at the concepts and not focus on just one 'stance' or weapon platform it becomes quite logical. Even his insistence on just one action type (SA) can become a DAO like a Glock or SIG DAK trigger.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

No. Retention, where the weapon is held at 'rib side' and ones thumb is used to cant the barrel so the slide does not jam can be used easily past 3 yards. It is great for indexing the weapon as it allows, like most other methods, to square your chest to the target. Just takes some practice, just as anything else does.

Deaf

We are talking about the same "retenion" technique so that's good. How do you account for the muzzle being on one side of the body and usually pointed downward? This creates magnifying problems as distance increases. You can use hand-eye coordination to adjust, but that isn't a simple index anymore. All other PS techniques have the muzzle on center line.



The illustration is not true to scale/angle of course, but it illustrates my point. If the muzzle is to the right of your center line, the intersecting angle will constantly change with distance requiring either an adjustment in wrist angle or another method. What am I missing?

 

[Deaf Smith]

We are talking about the same "retenion" technique so that's good. How do you account for the muzzle being on one side of the body and usually pointed downward? This creates magnifying problems as distance increases. You can use hand-eye coordination to adjust, but that isn't a simple index anymore. All other PS techniques have the muzzle on center line.



The illustration is not true to scale/angle of course, but it illustrates my point. If the muzzle is to the right of your center line, the intersecting angle will constantly change with distance requiring either an adjustment in wrist angle or another method. What am I missing?

You will also note your one yard shot you show in the demo is a bit to the right, and the three yard shot is a bit to the left. Me thinks your demo is a bit off in the amount of number of inches the weapon will shoot 'off' as you increase the distance. Nor will you make a perfect zero inch group.

If you practice at 1,2,3 yards you will learn where the weapon hits and adjust the index to match. It's not hard. Just go to the range and use the retention method at various ranges and experiment. Not only will you find your max range but with practice you will increase that range as you learn to 'feel' the weapon.

Deaf

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I would hesitate to use such a retention method much past arms length.
Past that and up to 9 feet is where hip shooting---as illustrated in Coopoer's 1958 edition of Fighting Handguns-- really shines.
Below is a photo of what Fairbairn termed half hip:

https://www.google.com/search?q=pho...8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=uoa_AM_IXNKXnM:

 

[LiveLife]

The version of Point Shooting I practice is done pointing at COM regardless of distance, typically at 7-15 yards, with goal of 4"-6" groups.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

With the exception of a bad guy at kissing distance I agree heartily, although I usually practice at much closer distances.

 

[strambo]

Deaf, I've never tried retention past 2yds. I'll do so either live or with an airsoft and see how it works out.

I still recommend adding a method that gets the gun on center such as 1/2 hip. 3/4 hip or Pos. 3 for a more accurate option that still keeps the gun back protecting from a grab, but extends the range to 5yds.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Exactly!
I have found that quite often those positions become instinctive under stress.
For example I have taught many armed guards who have had zero experience before taking my 47 hour class.
I taught them nothing but one and two handed aimed fire from the Isoceles stance but when we did role playing with air soft quite a few naturally went into half and 3/4 hip as distances decreased.
Rather than insist that these methods are not necessary I feel that they are the most important techniques to be mastered due to the distances that most armed conflicts occur

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well the reason strambo, I have just the two methods posted is not because other things don't work, but because many folks don't have time to practice a bunch of different types of fire. See Hick's law comes into effect. "The time it takes to make a decision increases as the
number of alternatives increases." So it's KISS.

Now if you have the time and money.... and I've spent many years and lots of money, then one can learn quite a few techniques. But most folks don't have such resources. Hence a form of sighted fire that can be used even if sights cannot be found, and a form of retention shooting. Just make sure the ranges overlap. That is retention good to a bit over 3 yards and the sighted fire good from a bit less than 3 yards.

Deaf

 

[strambo]

Roger, not arguin' just discussin' I agree with you that retention + sighted fire is the bare minimum.

On another note, I just saw this on youtube and thought it was pretty neat. Not making a point with it either way, just cool to see 2 very high level shooters going head to head, 1 from the hip, other sights.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Have you ever read "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern? Yes there are other ways to shoot!

Deaf

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I'm glad this thread has remained civil, hopefully it stays that way.

My personal thoughts on guys advocating training at a few feet or 1-3yds is I'm not going for my gun in the first place at those distances. I can get hands on much faster than I can draw a gun. So for me practicing any kind of point shooting or retention shooting at those distances is a non issue.


As an update, I have also added in practicing drawing and "hip shooting" (I guess) while backing away, to my arsenal. I was pretty surprised at how I was hitting B27's at 5yds+ while moving away from the target.

This continues to be not only a worthwhile endeavor but fun practice as well.

 

[LiveLife]

Good to hear.

For many, Point Shooting goes against the conventional notion of shooting of being responsible for where bullets go and thus focus on sight alignment to target.

But as Rob Leatham demonstrated, sight alignment to target and aiming with sights won't help you hit the target if you jerk/move the pistol. Point Shooting intrinsically address this factor by utilizing a process we have mastered all of our lives and better ensure POI (point of impact) matches POA (point of aim) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/page-7#post-10500193

As I shot USPSA matches, I found more and more, I transitioned to using point shooting for closer targets (7-10 yards) while still using front sight flash for more distant targets (15-25 yards). When I talked to seasoned regional shooters, they told me they essentially point shoot most of the targets and "expect" the double tap holes to appear on target COM (center of mass).

For me, I believe Point Shooting is a natural progression of sighted shooting to improve speed and accuracy where focus shifts from the front sight to target while maintaining accuracy.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I'm glad this thread has remained civil, hopefully it stays that way.

My personal thoughts on guys advocating training at a few feet or 1-3yds is I'm not going for my gun in the first place at those distances. I can get hands on much faster than I can draw a gun. So for me practicing any kind of point shooting or retention shooting at those distances is a non issue.


As an update, I have also added in practicing drawing and "hip shooting" (I guess) while backing away, to my arsenal. I was pretty surprised at how I was hitting B27's at 5yds+ while moving away from the target.

This continues to be not only a worthwhile endeavor but fun practice as well.

Hand to hand skills are important but do not neglect extreme close shooting skills.
Bad guys have an annoying tendency of deciding for us what is or is not relevant.

 

[strambo]

I'm glad this thread has remained civil, hopefully it stays that way.

My personal thoughts on guys advocating training at a few feet or 1-3yds is I'm not going for my gun in the first place at those distances. I can get hands on much faster than I can draw a gun. So for me practicing any kind of point shooting or retention shooting at those distances is a non issue.

I agree, if the gun isn't in your hand at 1-2yds it makes sense to strike first. That said, practice 1-2 strikes then as the offhand strike is landing, draw into retention and shoot. Or, strike 1-3 times dropping threat #1, draw and scan 360.

Also practice the opposite: gun out then transition to striking (with the gun and offhand) for occasions when they close distance too fast or you get a jam, go empty.

Retention shooting is very important because the fight is dynamic and the distance can collapse in an instant, so what do you do with the gun already in your hand?

 

[strambo]

OK, I played around with retention shooting out to 3yds today with the airsoft gun. I've never done it past 1.5-2yds before, I just switched to another technique. I fired 2 shots at 2ft (close striking range), 2 more at 1yd, 2 more at 2yds then 8 at 3yds to get an idea of my grouping. I made no adjustments to my retention position, just slammed it in and squeezed the trigger.

It seems like it is viable as Deaf says at 3 yds and horizontal displacement is not a huge issue. That said, any group size larger than what I have here would not be acceptable to me, so this would be my personal limit. I'm pretty practiced at the position as well.

Not shown, I shot a fist sized group at 5yds 3/4 hip position (arm not quite fully extended) so, you do get a lot more accuracy out of the PS techniques where the gun is on centerline.