Point Shooting

[Good Ol' Boy]

How many practice this technique at closer distances for SD practice?

I tried my first time today at the range. It's not very impressive I guess, but I was surprised for a first try using no sights.


LC9s, 15ft, starting from a ready position (gun at waist level), get gun on target as quickly as possible and shooting immediately as fast as I could pull the trigger while maintaining control/aim.









As always tips/advice is welcome. Not only for me but what you do for yourself.

 

[Indawind]

I am no expert although it is something I work probably less than I should. Personally I work from high COM and let the shots walk up, not pulling the recoil all the way down. Then pull it down hard and let it rise again. I have NO idea how this fits into "expert" training but I feel it would work fairly well.

Have to say even though you might not think it impressive, it certainly would work in a pinch I think.

 

[Bullseye]

That's nice point shooting results on your target if you ask me for 15 yds!
I like to practice once in awhile myself. It is amazing how the brain and pointing finger get together. How close to being a straight line it actually can be.
You can even practice this without a pistol, just a finger. That's what I concentrate on when I do it.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

That's nice point shooting results on your target if you ask me for 15 yds!
I like to practice once in awhile myself. It is amazing how the brain and pointing finger get together. How close to being a straight line it actually can be.
You can even practice this without a pistol, just a finger. That's what I concentrate on when I do it.

Prepare to be unimpressed. It was 15FT.

But it WAS my first time trying...

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Have to say even though you might not think it impressive, it certainly would work in a pinch I think.

Realistically it might be more often than just a pinch, I don't know.

Regardless of how likely it is that the threat will be very close it seems like some practice on just getting the gun on target ASAP and getting shots off ASAP without proper sight alignment would be worthwhile. We may not always have time to line up sights like we would like to.

 

[Bullseye]

Prepare to be unimpressed. It was 15FT.

chuckle ... naw, Your target, unless it is broadside of a barn size, is definitely hurting.
Still impressed.
Keep practicing. There may be a time when all we get is a chance to point and shoot.

 

[Dog Soldier]

The military taught instinctive/point shooting during the Vietnam War. They used Daisy Lever BB guns. It is actually an inexpensive training technique for any weapon. My favorite is shooting cans in the Desert. Both eyes focused on the can at 12 feet. The hits are registered by the marks in the sand. It is a fun skill development.

 

[LiveLife]

Point shooting ... How many practice this technique at closer distances for SD practice?

The USPSA RSO who taught defensive shooting also taught local PD/SD SWAT teams and used the following method. He had us remove the front sights of our Glocks and lowered the range lights for us to go through USPSA match stage setups for low light shooting situations. Pass/fail criteria was 4"-6" shot groups. Point shooting drill is part of my range practice routine and discussed in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-combat-situations.776853/page-2#post-9859706

Point shooting requires practice but certainly doesn't require years to master. With deliberate training, most shooters I worked with got the hang of it with the first range session.

I first have the shooters point at 3 yards at COM with their eyes closed to give them a reality lesson of what their body will actually do with a pistol. Once they actualize what their "natural point of aim" is and see that they tend to aim low or "push" to anticipate recoil, I have them conduct this deliberate exercise.

1. Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting. From where you are sitting or standing, point at the light switch or door knob with your index finger. Unless you have some physical issues, most of us will point right at the light switch or door knob. This is fine motor skill we have mastered our entire lives. If you imagine a laser line extending from the finger tip, you should visualize that line hitting the target.

2. With this visualization and index finger pointing, imagine a pistol in your hand with the barrel parallel with your index finger. Now imagine two parallel laser lines and point at various targets around the room.

3. At the range, place 4-6 dots (bingo dauber works well for this) evenly spaced on the target and set at 3 yards. While focusing at one of the dots, draw the pistol and point at the dot while visualizing two laser lines extending from the index finger and barrel to the dot.

5. After several practice draws, while focusing at the dot and not looking at the sights, draw and fire. Make vertical/horizontal adjustments at the shoulders (vertical) and waist (horizontal) while maintaining the same grip/stance. Walk the bullet holes to the dot with subsequent shots.

6. Once you can consistently shoot at the dot, next point and shoot at other dots on the target.

7. When you can consistently shoot at all the dots on the target, move the target to 5 yards, then to 7 yards. Pass criteria used is 4"-6" shot groups around each dot.

If you shoot matches, try double tapping while point shooting and practice until you can place two bullet holes anywhere on the target at will.

This is the deliberate training I use for this version of point shooting. Most shooters I have worked with will get the hang of it on the first range session and I tell them to keep practicing until they reach a comfortable level proficiency of being able to call the shots on the target. I also have them run the same drill with their eyes closed so they can further master this technique and build confidence to use in low light conditions.

Besides, this exercise gives you another fun thing to do at the range and with practice, you may reach these levels of point shooting.

Take a look at this series of videos from Downrange TV by D.R. Middlebrooks. In the first video titled "Surgical Point Shooting", he point shoots at eye level a pistol without sights and hits 18"x24" plate at 25/50/75/100 yards then he shoots metal spinners at 10 yards



In the second video titled "High Speed Point Shooting", double taps and high speed point shooting is done at 10 yards including his 53 year old wife Barb point shooting.



In the third video he covers the reasons for "Why Point Shoot?":
- Speed
- National average of defensive shooting at less than 7 yards
- Reality of bad guy ambush from close odd positions and no luxury of enough distance to extend out arm/pistol to use sights
- Need to guard pistol from being taken away
- Low light conditions
- Getting eye glasses knocked off (Hmmmm, I need to add "no glasses" to my range drills)

At 3:30 minute mark, he demonstrates close range shooting techniques which utilize hip shots instead of center-of-mass hits (My defensive training instructor did cover hip shots as a means to circumvent threats wearing body armor).



In the fourth video, he discusses "Integrated Point Shooting":
- Conventional "front sight press" is one dimensional shooting
- Real street fighting may require shooting from retention, partial extension, 3/4 extension or full extension
- Point shooting can be integrated with sighted shooting
- Demonstrates 3 levels of presentation of retention/guard position, partial extension and full extension point shooting at 7 yards with and without movement

 

[GRIZ22]

How many practice this technique at closer distances for SD practice?

I tried my first time today at the range. It's not very impressive I guess, but I was surprised for a first try using no sights.


LC9s, 15ft, starting from a ready position (gun at waist level), get gun on target as quickly as possible and shooting immediately as fast as I could pull the trigger while maintaining control/aim.









As always tips/advice is welcome. Not only for me but what you do for yourself.

Not bad results for a first try. You definitely would have gotten your opponent's attention.

I really didn't think that much of point shooting. That is until I really learned how to do it from Jim Cirillo about 30 years ago.

Jim used to say if you were using sights, even in a fight, you're target shooting. One method he taught was gun silhouette. Ideal to use if your target is wider than the rear view of your gun from your perspective. You bring the gun up to eye level and your looking at the back of your gun. It's bigger and easier to align than your sights. If you see the side of your gun (barrel, cylinder, slide) you're off to the left or right. If you see the top of your gun you're pointing it too high.

The other is a little more difficult to master but not really that hard. Jim called it nose point. You need to hold your gun level at a high ready right under your nose. As you turn your head you keep the gun under your nose. When you refine this where your nose points, you will hit.

I used to teach both methods as a LE firearms instructor. The gun silhouette was the easiest to master. With practice you can shoot pretty good out to 15 yds or so.

 

[GRIZ22]

I am no expert although it is something I work probably less than I should. Personally I work from high COM and let the shots walk up, not pulling the recoil all the way down. Then pull it down hard and let it rise again. I have NO idea how this fits into "expert" training but I feel it would work fairly well.

Have to say even though you might not think it impressive, it certainly would work in a pinch I think.

What you describe is a similar to a technique I learned and used to teach called vertical tracking. The idea is to get lead into the target as quickly as possible. It's only used at close range , say 10 ft or so, but can be effective at longer ranges.

If you're squared off on your target you draw and as soon as your gun is pointed ahead of you. You start shooting even if the muzzle is still pointed at the ground. You ride the recoil up until the gun is at chest level. Continue shooting using one of the point shooting techniques I described above or acquire your sights if you need them.

Yes, you may shoot dirt (as we say in the artillery) with your first round but you might get 3 or 4 rounds into your opponent by the time you get your gun to chest level.

Does it work? Best example I can relate is a Customs Inspector used this maybe 15 or more years ago. Someone pulled a 380 on him, shot him in the mouth then another Inspector sitting at a desk.

First, praise for the Inspector who was shot in the mouth. He told himself just because I'm shot doesn't mean I'm dead or going to die. He drew and fired 3 rounds. The first hit the bad guy in the thigh, the second in the hip, and the third in the chest which finished him.

Both Inspectors fully recovered.

 

[Deaf Smith]

In reality you need two things to hit well and fast. Index and trigger control.

Just how you accomplish depends on one, a solid "presentation", aka the draw, that is solid and repeatable, two, some way to align the piece, and three, controlling the trigger.

Point shooting, not to confused with hip shooting, usually uses the slide or top of the barrel via peripheral vision to align the piece.

Deaf

 

[shafter]

You may think your results are unimpressive but they aren't bad at all if your shooting as fast as you can. You're not looking to put all your rounds in the same hole here. In a gunfight impressive is getting rounds center of mass before the other guy does the same to you.

In a gunfight accuracy and speed have a close relationship. All the accuracy in the word won't help if your killed first, nor will all the speed help you if you keep missing. In training, especially at closer ranges, incorporate training where you shoot as fast as you can to the point all your rounds are COM. When they start falling outside of COM slow it down just a bit. If your shooting one ragged hole you're going too slow.

As a final note, when I talk about point shooting it's just that. The gun is raised almost to eye level and all of the focus is on the target. The gun is a blurry object in the sight picture just like pointing a finger. For me it's fast and accurate inside 12 yards or so. Beyond that it's back to front sight focus.

 

[Hangingrock]

The military taught instinctive/point shooting during the Vietnam War. They used Daisy Lever BB guns. It is actually an inexpensive training technique for any weapon.

Fort Sherman - Panama Canal Zone - Jungle Warfare School Summer of 1966.

 

[Kleanbore]

After a defender properly decides whom to shoot at when there is no alternative, he or she has two critical objectives: (1) hit the attacker in vital areas very timely ,and sufficiently often to be effective; and (2) do not hit anyone else.

 

[LiveLife]

For me, the main difference between point shooting vs sighted shooting is that sighted shooting (or front sight flash) relies on using the front sight to hit the target but point shooting relies on the index finger pointing/muscle memory to hit the target. Another benefit of point shooting is that you can still hit your target in low light conditions when sights are not visible which is very applicable to defensive shooting situations.

Effectiveness of point shooting can be verified by being able to hit multiple aim points on target with eyes closed and reason why I incorporate shooting with eyes closed for my point shooting practice.

While use of sighted/front sight flash shooting is preferable, unsighted/point shooting is an option that can be valuable with practice in certain defensive shooting circumstances.

 

[Sarge7402]

one thing that you need to keep in mind is it takes at least 500 draw/present/shoot repetitions in order to ensure that you have built up muscle memory. Can be done with an empty gun, but like shooting hoops it's a skill that is perishible

 

[LiveLife]

Most of us have practiced pointing with our index fingers all of our lives and already developed muscle memory. Hence why point shooting works. When you are practicing with a pistol, focus pointing with the index finger.

Don't believe me?

From where you are sitting, point at the nearest light switch or door knob with your index finger. Point shooting utilizes this muscle memory we have conditioned our bodies during our lifetime. We are simply "strapping" a barrel parallel to our index finger to send bullets to the point of aim.

Most of us have trained our body to point all of our lives and we can utilize this for point shooting. From where you are sitting or standing, point at the light switch or door knob with your index finger.

Unless you have some physical issues, most of us will point right at the light switch or door knob. This is fine motor skill we have mastered our entire lives.

 

[RPRNY]

How many practice this technique at closer distances for SD practice?

I tried my first time today at the range. It's not very impressive I guess, but I was surprised for a first try using no sights.


LC9s, 15ft, starting from a ready position (gun at waist level), get gun on target as quickly as possible and shooting immediately as fast as I could pull the trigger while maintaining control/aim.









As always tips/advice is welcome. Not only for me but what you do for yourself.

I am no expert, nor even a particularly skilled amateur, but I do believe that this is an excellent skill to develop and that you have framed the circumstances for its usefulness (close distance SD) extremely well. And in that context, I am perplexed by your self-deprecation. If the three circles represent three groups or two groups and a cranial double tap, I would be very, very pleased indeed! There are two DRT shots, several probable CNS shots, and a bunch of 2-3 shot groups that would very likely end an opponents ability to provide effective opposition. I would be very pleased with these results.

 

[Hangingrock]

If point shooting skills solved all problems then there would be no need for sighted fire. Even thou point shooting is a derivative of the index sighted firing sequence. With the advent of the compact/practical/durable red-dot sighting systems technology and future advancements, the foreseeable is yet to be fully recognized.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I really appreciate all of the replies guys.

You all make some very valid points. BDS thanks for sharing those videos.


My first experience was basically what Shafter described. Getting the gun up to head/eye level and focusing eyes on the target where I wanted to hit. The gun was just a blurred part of the foreground.


I'm definitely going to start incorporating this into my range time. Not only does it seem like a worthwhile thing to practice but it's quite fun.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

If point shooting skills solved all problems then there would be no need for sighted fire.

I don't think anyone has said that. But at very close distances it does seem like a worthwhile technique to learn.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but at 5yds or less I don't think I'd ever get "good" enough to get the gun on target with proper sight alignment fast enough to stop a threat. We're all aware of the Tuller drill, and we're talking about distances even closer than that.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Get a laser of some variety, preferably one like a Lasermax that turns on with a fully extended trigger finger outside the grip. Draw, point, and instead of firing turn the laser on. Make sure you are unloaded, in a safe direction, and chamber flag it if you like.

Do it enough and you should be able to halve the sizes of your groups fairly quickly.

One downside of point shooting a pistol. It only works for that one model pistol. Switching to a different model or brand can put your natural point of aim 3" off or more at 7 feet.

 

[Bullseye]

So I'm down the basement putting wood on the fire and I think about this thread again.
Thinking ....
When we point shoot, we are holding a handgun with one hand. So the grip and trigger pull has to be practiced one handed.
When using sights, usually we shoot with a somewhat limp trigger hand and support the handgun with the other hand firmly from moving when pulling the trigger.
Without the other hand, there may be some pull to the right ( if right handed and left visa versa ).

Boy I gotta take a break from this place. LOL

 

[strambo]

I think a lot of good reasons for point shooting skills get missed in these discussions. Most often the only reason given is time. If we are talking about getting the gun up to eye level, then it isn't quicker than a well-trained sighted shooter.

Here are some other reasons to learn various PS methods: Close range-gun grab. Everyone agrees a "retention" technique is needed. What about at 3yds? Shooting at a 2D paper target at 3yds and making a fast, sighted, eye box shot feels good. However, sub the target with a person who's arms are extended and you'll see their hands are only 3ft from your gun. 1 fast step, or about a half second. I'm not saying to always PS at 3yds or never use sights at that range (put a table between you and them and sights makes sense again, or a hostage situation.) I am saying in a dynamic gunfight which may involve running, striking, stabbing as well, consider a PS technique other than retention might be prudent in the 2-5yd arena.

Baby-gun. I can't help but notice how popular puny guns are for carry. P3ATs, J frames etc. They have tiny sights. Add in the fact that over 60% of assaults occur in hours of darkness and maybe some adrenaline dilated pupils, using those tiny sights at speed in a fast-moving gunfight in those conditions may be extremely difficult. This leads to another reason...while many people involved in shootings report seeing their sights, many do not. It is prudent to allow for the fact that under fire you could be in the "may not" category. Makes sense to practice PS methods before that time. A force on force evolution might surprise even the most die-hard sighted fire advocate with what they do (then again maybe not, there are no absolutes).

Finally, there are 6 PS positions I'm aware of and have practiced...it isn't limited to just the slide being in your peripheral vision as has been said here. There is retention (I prefer the pec-index), in classic Fairbairn-Sykes (FS) terms that is called "1/4 hip". There is hip-shooting (FS = 1/2 hip). There is shooting from position 3 (2 hands compressed high ready, no FS term). There is the FS 3/4 hip which is an often overlooked, but extremely versatile position in the 3-5yd range. This is just your arm 3/4 extended. Faster than full extension, more accurate than hip, still gives more grab protection than full extension. Next we have the FS "shoulder-point" which is one arm fully extended in line of sight. Finally 2 hands extended (I don't think FS talked about this one either.)

So, 6 positions, only 2 involve the gun in the sight line and only 1 is "hip-shooting."

For me, here are rough ranges where I find them effective (hand size groups as fast as I pull the trigger). Retention 0-2yds. Hip, 3-4yds. High ready, 4-5yds. 3/4 hip, 5-6 yds. Shoulder point, 7yds. 2 hands, 10 yards.

Now those ranges above notwithstanding, I rarely practice PS at 7-10yds. I see it as for 5 and under as the vast majority of gunfights happen under 15ft. If I'm in a longer one, it is nice to know what I can do PS-wise, but I'm gonna be on the sights if at all possible! Most of my practice is sighted fire (to include at close ranges).

A great book on the subject: "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" by Col. Rex Applegate and Michael Janich. It is an easy to read, well-illustrated, how-to guide for PS training.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

http://iccf.freeforums.org/post253.html#p253
My free online point shooting home study course.
Tip-- at 15 feet the gun should be somewhere between chest and chin level.
Lastly Paladin Press produced my point shooting DVD titled Shoot him to the Ground in 2010 which is available from them and on Amazon.