Just ordered it for the Kindle. Thanks.
Point Shooting
- Thread starter Good Ol' Boy
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I have Matt's "Shoot Him To The Ground" DVD. It does a great job demonstrating PS concepts both basic and advanced and putting it together while moving with zipper and "S" drills. I really like that he kept it all in context (close quarters), no distracting long-range PS parlor tricks.
Big7
Member
Prepare to be unimpressed. It was 15FT.
But it WAS my first time trying...
Looks pretty good to me. Dumping that many at once with "no sights" does not a MOA target produce.
My combat target run is both eyes open and don't look through the sights.
One eye if you have to smoke one with a hostage is a different matter.
Everyone needs to practice that too..
If one is content to shoot one gun with one load then point shooting can be used reliably. No different than shooting a bow instinctively, throwing a ball, etc. Those are all mastered with muscle memory and repetition.
This is simply not correct. The load doesn't matter and even the gun isn't a big deal unless the grip angle is way different. Even then, at 15ft and in, you will still get combat effective hits. Last time I taught some PS drills was with an Army M9 and whatever load we were issued. I (and the students) did just fine. As a matter of fact, I saw a couple shoot better than they did with the sights because they basically got their mind out of the way and just shot.
The load doesn't matter, heck it can be an airsoft pellet. External ballistics don't mean much at 15ft and under. Yeah, if you PS an airsoft gun at 7yds, you'll probably hit a bit low.
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Matthew Temkin
Member
I concurr.
Combat point shooting has nothing in common with instinctive archery or ball throwing, both of which take extensive practice to master and are highly perishable skills.
I also must take issue with the, "Content to shoot with one hand" comment for two reasons.
1) Two handed point shooting is part of the program.
2) Combat conditions frequently demand one handed shooting skills whether you are content with it or not.
Combat point shooting has nothing in common with instinctive archery or ball throwing, both of which take extensive practice to master and are highly perishable skills.
I also must take issue with the, "Content to shoot with one hand" comment for two reasons.
1) Two handed point shooting is part of the program.
2) Combat conditions frequently demand one handed shooting skills whether you are content with it or not.
I haven't ever really practiced "point shooting". I've always felt that if you practice your presentation properly the muscle memory to point shoot is ingrained.
My ability to point shoot and get hits assures me I don't really need to practice
My ability to point shoot and get hits assures me I don't really need to practice
1. I never said anything about shooting with one hand
2. I never said this was confined to shooting at 15 feet and less.
My comment was directed at Hangingrock's comment about no need for sighted fire. My point was with enough practice one can hit pretty accurately with a gun with no sights at all by simply looking at what you want to shoot and hitting it. Yes, it takes practice.
My experience: I inherited a H&R revolver in 32 S&W Long. 2.5" barrel with fixed sights that were pretty much worthless. Not only was the groove in the frame tiny but it was also mostly blocked by the hammer. Add in the fact that even from a rest the point of impact didn't match up with the point of aim. So very quickly I decided trying to shoot with the sights was pointless. So I didn't.
I started at 5 yards and simply focused on the target and pulled the trigger. Very quickly my body adjusted and I was hitting where I was looking. Then I took it out to 10 yards, then 15 and then finally 20 yards. After I was hitting within a 8" plate at 20 yards I started mixing the distances. Two rounds at 5, two at 15, two at 10 etc, mixing and matching the targets. In all I shot 600 rounds, in 3 range sessions, over a 2 week time. It was fun.
Does it mean I could do the same thing today? No, but I bet it would take less time to get on target.
2. I never said this was confined to shooting at 15 feet and less.
My comment was directed at Hangingrock's comment about no need for sighted fire. My point was with enough practice one can hit pretty accurately with a gun with no sights at all by simply looking at what you want to shoot and hitting it. Yes, it takes practice.
My experience: I inherited a H&R revolver in 32 S&W Long. 2.5" barrel with fixed sights that were pretty much worthless. Not only was the groove in the frame tiny but it was also mostly blocked by the hammer. Add in the fact that even from a rest the point of impact didn't match up with the point of aim. So very quickly I decided trying to shoot with the sights was pointless. So I didn't.
I started at 5 yards and simply focused on the target and pulled the trigger. Very quickly my body adjusted and I was hitting where I was looking. Then I took it out to 10 yards, then 15 and then finally 20 yards. After I was hitting within a 8" plate at 20 yards I started mixing the distances. Two rounds at 5, two at 15, two at 10 etc, mixing and matching the targets. In all I shot 600 rounds, in 3 range sessions, over a 2 week time. It was fun.
Does it mean I could do the same thing today? No, but I bet it would take less time to get on target.
azrocks
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I don't believe in point shooting. I do believe that it's possible you will devolve into point shooting during an actual life-or-death encounter. But I feel the best preparation for this likely scenario is nothing more than increased training using the sights. Every time you align the sights on target using your eyes, you're increasing your ability to do so even when the sights don't line up (muscle memory). So to my way of thinking, the best way to train for point shooting is to never do it.
As for the 'shoot from the hip' form of point shooting, I believe that in actual encounter requiring such a rapid response, you'd go on auto-drive and simply do whatever you trained to do most. As I don't intend to do the bulk of my training from the hip, I'm just going to go on the assumption it's not going to happen in a real-world encounter. So if I'm in a situation where things are that tight, I'd rather train to back up and create distance while doing with my gun what I normally do (sighted shooting).
As for the 'shoot from the hip' form of point shooting, I believe that in actual encounter requiring such a rapid response, you'd go on auto-drive and simply do whatever you trained to do most. As I don't intend to do the bulk of my training from the hip, I'm just going to go on the assumption it's not going to happen in a real-world encounter. So if I'm in a situation where things are that tight, I'd rather train to back up and create distance while doing with my gun what I normally do (sighted shooting).
MICHAEL T
Member
Whats bad. Those shots look upper chest a few inch either side of center line of body and I don't want shot in head their . Point shooting isn't little group Its rounds on target fast before he shoots. . You hits are all good
Lot of truth there
Matthew Temkin
Member
Since the vast majority of confrontations occur at hand shaking distance I think it is a bit niave to say that it will not happen in a real world encounter.
As to backing up to employ sighted fire-- lots of luck to you.
Especially if he decides to charge in while you are back peddling.
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Jim Watson
Member
While it is common for tacticians to deprecate competition, (Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back, etc.) a bit of IDPA or IPSC will soon show you that getting hits is a continuum of effort. You will learn what your range brackets are for pointed, directed, coarse aim, and fine aim shooting.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Point shooting is only one aspect of combat shooting.
Anyone who states that sighted fire skills are unnecessary is dead wrong IMHO.
Distance and circumstances-- not wishful thinking or cherished beliefs-- is what dictates tactics and techniques.
Hangingrock
Member
I have a correspondence file with Colonel Charles Askins on the subject of point and sighted fire. (Yes I've been around for awhile longer than I like to remember).
That said I also have a correspondence file with Lt Colonel Jeff Cooper. It would be fair to say that in the time frame of the late nineteen fifties to early nineteen sixties Cooper went from point shooting to being and advocate of sighted fire with the inclusion of point shooting at contact distance.
On the other hand Colonel Charles Askins had an extensive resume of shooting incidents over s period of several decades law enforcement and military. Askins employed methodology of what ever was necessary point or sighted fire. to put his adversaries down.
It also must be pointed out that with out being demeaning of either individual Cooper's combat experience was somewhat limited compared to Askins.
I don't believe either man thought Point Shooting was the Holy Grail of self-defense/combat shooting, but did have application when/where required.
That said I also have a correspondence file with Lt Colonel Jeff Cooper. It would be fair to say that in the time frame of the late nineteen fifties to early nineteen sixties Cooper went from point shooting to being and advocate of sighted fire with the inclusion of point shooting at contact distance.
On the other hand Colonel Charles Askins had an extensive resume of shooting incidents over s period of several decades law enforcement and military. Askins employed methodology of what ever was necessary point or sighted fire. to put his adversaries down.
It also must be pointed out that with out being demeaning of either individual Cooper's combat experience was somewhat limited compared to Askins.
I don't believe either man thought Point Shooting was the Holy Grail of self-defense/combat shooting, but did have application when/where required.
Matthew Temkin
Member
I could not agree more--especially with Col. Askins.
I knew another Col--Rex Applegate--very well and he felt the same as Mr. Askins.
azrocks
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I never said that such situations wouldn't occur in real life. I said that I don't believe training to react to them via point shooting is the right answer.
I've done it in practice, I've done it in competition, I've seen plenty of other folks do it too, and here's a police officer who's probably never once been in a gunfight doing it successfully in a real-world encounter:
Great thing about backing up is it's a natural reaction to a threat, so a little practice goes a long way. The biggest hurdle is learning to walk in manner that doesn't upset your muzzle (rolling on your feet). Quite unlike point-shooting from the hip, which unless practiced extensively is likely not what you're going to do when the SHTF (your natural reaction being to extend your hands toward the threat). And best of all, it gets you out harms way, as this video demonstrates, which would have had a different result if the officer had stood still point shooting.
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If you need practice to get hits at handshaking distance (the rest of my statement prolly isn't high road)
Jim Watson
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It is now frowned upon that we should practice on Mexicans, though.
I just ran some people through some drills using Simunition FX this morning...you'd be surprised what happens even under mild stress and a living, moving threat. What you can do on a square range has almost nothing to do with it.
That officer in the video above did a good job. Hypothetical question since none of use can know: but how many think he actually saw the sights? He could have, the gun was extended and up high enough. Based on personal FoF experience and observing many others, I'd bet $20 he didn't see them.
It takes a tremendous amount of experience under stress to overcome the natural tendency to focus on the threat (shifting focus from the person trying to kill you to a front sight is a tall order...fighting both psychology plus physiology-adrenaline effects). Plenty have reported they did see sights in combat. However, I have noticed a correlation with those people also being extremely well-trained and combat experienced (and they are usually in the "hunter" role, not reacting to an unexpected ambush/mugging). As the saying goes, the first time you kill someone it is very difficult. 2nd one is really hard, but a little better. 3rd one, well that one starts to level out and it is pretty easy after.
The more times you have been in life-or death stress, the better you can control your response. Until at some point, you pretty much can perform the same as on the range. Our Tier-1 units get there. Experienced SWAT operators I imagine get there as well. I hope I never do, I don't want to experience one close gunfight, never mind the statistical 3 I need before my performance and survival rate really shoots up. (Ref. "Training At The Speed of Life" Kenneth R. Murray)
Those saying you don't need to practice PS because you practice sighted fire...I can agree with that only for the exact positions where you shoot with sights or Pos 3 since you always hit that in the draw stroke. Retention or 1-hand not quite extended (because they can grab the gun), how are you going to hit a moving target (while also moving) under life or death stress shooting from a position you've never trained? Possible, sure. Likely, no.
You don't have to shoot from the hip, or ever practice it. But you should practice some sort of retention shooting position and another one good to about 3-5 yards IMO. Fully extended at 3-5 yds...forget Tueller at 7yds. At 3-5yds we are talking a fraction of a second to deflect, grab or close the distance. Bullets aren't a ray gun, only a CNS hit (brain or spine) will drop them on the spot. Hit the heart, they still have 7-30s of conscious voluntary control left in them.
Good video with some good lessons about creating distance if you can. The officer gave himself some pretty good distance and yet look at how quickly the perp closed in. Imagine if he had attacked like that while the officer was much closer. That's why speed is so crucial because in my opinion at close range you can make hits a bit quicker by point shooting.
Had the officer made that distance and then the perp pulled a gun, that would be a good time to use your sights. Both skills have their place and should be practiced.
Had the officer made that distance and then the perp pulled a gun, that would be a good time to use your sights. Both skills have their place and should be practiced.
entropy
Member
I took the sights of my PT145 because I was hitting consistantly high. I'm guessing they're same sights on the longer barreled guns. I shot better without them on, and it has given me cause to work on point shooting.
Oh I'm sure you're right, because trainers like yourself put so much emphasis on not using the freekin things that under stress you're reduced to your level of training. It's why so many beat cops that have limited training have issues hitting anything unless they're at handshake distance.
90%+ of my training is with sights and I spend an awful lot of time on sights and trigger control with students as well. I've never taught someone "not" to use the sights under stress. I merely [also] teach them how to PS in addition to them. I have never heard of anyone who teaches PS not also advocating sights whenever able.
In a perfect world, every shot not from a retention position would be sighted and hit the heart or mid-brain.
P.S. The "beat cops" have issues due to limited training as you've said and more importantly limited reality based FoF training. Do police academies even teach point shooting? If not, all their training was to use the sights anyway.
In a perfect world, every shot not from a retention position would be sighted and hit the heart or mid-brain.
P.S. The "beat cops" have issues due to limited training as you've said and more importantly limited reality based FoF training. Do police academies even teach point shooting? If not, all their training was to use the sights anyway.
Matthew Temkin
Member
The first time I had to pull my weapon was when I arrested a heroin shooting junkie in a courthouse bathroom.
( This was in 1980 long before the placement of detectors in the lobby)
When he charged me with his upraised needle the distance was about 10 feet and I had no place to back peddle or side step.
Luckily I was well schooled in hand to hand combat and my trained instincts took over.
As to the video...The officer was very lucky not to get hit by a vehicle but he did a very good job.
Personally I think he waited too long to open fire but since I was not there I'll just give an amen.
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