Point Shooting

[mavracer]

A more direct route to gain the skill of getting hits w/o the sights would be to add in deliberate PS training and practice.

Yes that's great we can learn to index the gun to adjust for our jerking the trigger and might as well strip the sights off cause when the stress hits we wont use them.

It's just that only a single digit percentage of the shooting population will get there and effective combat hit capability can be built with a lot less time and effort.

You're seriously going to argue the screw it I can't be good so I'm gonna strive for mediocrity.

Probably my favorite video in regards to "aiming".

funny I remember one of the big IPSC shooters saying the exact opposite about trigger control ( I wanna say it was Enos ) that his trigger pull was exactly like precision shooting only faster. I agree with that you won't score well in bullseye if the gun moves as the trigger breaks.

 

[LiveLife]

Having shot USPSA matches, I believe shot calling is match shooting equivalent of point shooting. The deliberate practice of shot calling over time relies less and less on the use of sights to the point (as pointed out below) focus on the target becomes primary. This excerpt is from "Competition" category discussion - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/first-uspsa-match-today.809836/#post-10356577

If you haven't already, incorporate "shot calling" to your range practice drills - https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/10/18/calling-your-shots/

Instead of shooting at COM repeatedly, I usually place 4 to 6 bingo dauber dots on 8.5x11 copy paper (yeah, call me cheap but they last almost forever) and randomly shoot at different dots by breaking up my double taps - so it's bang-bang on two different dots. This forces you to quickly acquire new target after each trigger pull.

As to more "zen of shooting", one time on a match practice day, a regional match shooter (the one who usually places at the top) watched me practice shot calling and he said, "Let me help you with that" and told me to shift my focus from the front sight to the target. Then he said to "make holes appear" on the target COM (I went "Whaaaaaat?"). After some adjustment and practice, I was able to make holes "appear" somewhat close to where I was aiming. He smiled and told me to practice until I could make holes (double taps) appear anywhere on the target. He said that's how some shooters can shoot fast and also be accurate.

The regional shooter was in fact describing an application of "zen of shooting" where you practice enough and trust yourself enough to not only hope to hit your POA but to make POI holes "appear" where you want them to - http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/29694-zen-and-shooting-research-project/

... you need to develop an unshakable faith in your trigger control skill, and an equally hard faith in the belief that if you focus on and align the sights and press through as you practice, you absolutely will hit the target

 

[strambo]

Yes that's great we can learn to index the gun to adjust for our jerking the trigger and might as well strip the sights off cause when the stress hits we wont use them.
You're seriously going to argue the screw it I can't be good so I'm gonna strive for mediocrity.

Umm..."no" to all of that, but we're probably at an impass now anyway. I'm merely advocating to use proven methods (learned in blood) to prepare for combat vice proven methods to prevail in high level competition...though there is a lot of overlap with both which is why Tier 1 units seek out guys like Leatham and many of them compete in addition to their tactical training.

The only one speaking in absolutes and using the straw-man of "mediocrity" and "you can't use the sights" is you. Don't put that on me, for every hour you spent refining your shooting skill beyond what I have, I probably spent one in H2H training or small unit operations. Just a matter of emphasis and goals.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Umm..."no" to all of that, but we're probably at an impass now anyway. I'm merely advocating to use proven methods (learned in blood) to prepare for combat vice proven methods to prevail in high level competition...though there is a lot of overlap with both which is why Tier 1 units seek out guys like Leatham and many of them compete in addition to their tactical training.

The only one speaking in absolutes and using the straw-man of "mediocrity" and "you can't use the sights" is you. Don't put that on me, for every hour you spent refining your shooting skill beyond what I have, I probably spent one in H2H training or small unit operations. Just a matter of emphasis and goals.

This has become the classic gamer vs." learned in blood" methods argument which usually erodes any discussion of point shooting.
I am glad that the gentlemen is quite the marksman.
Hopefully his skills will get him through the night should he ever have to shoot for keeps.
Also hopefully those who have an open mind and see the need for these skills will investigate the subject further.

 

[murf]

the sights have to be aligned with the target (what you want to hit) when the bullet leaves the barrel; doesn't matter if you are looking at the sights or not. there are different ways to accomplish this. no one way is best for all situations. rob latham's grip and trigger pull video says it best, imo.

murf

 

[Rick McC.]

I really appreciate all of the replies guys.

You all make some very valid points. BDS thanks for sharing those videos.


My first experience was basically what Shafter described. Getting the gun up to head/eye level and focusing eyes on the target where I wanted to hit. The gun was just a blurred part of the foreground.


I'm definitely going to start incorporating this into my range time. Not only does it seem like a worthwhile thing to practice but it's quite fun.

"Threat Focused" shooting is a skill that can be acquired (with proper guidance) much more quickly than most would believe, building on skills one uses everyday.

http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.co...552-Brownie-s-you-tube-vids-on-various-skills

http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.co...76362-Threat-Focused-Pistol-AAR-October-29-30

An old article, but still contains relevant info:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/interview-with-a-modern-day-gunfighter/

 

[mavracer]

Problems with skipping steps, IE not having draw stroke ingrained before learning to shoot on the move. I don't really want point shooting itself "learned in blood"

 

[strambo]

How does this video have anything to do with point shooting?

 

[mavracer]

How does this video have anything to do with point shooting?

Really? You don't think the same thing could have happened doing speed rocks?

 

[Matthew Temkin]

How does this video have anything to do with point shooting?

Further debate with this chap will do nothing but raise your blood pressure.

 

[strambo]

The first steps of the draw stroke should be the same no matter the technique (and drawing has nothing to do with the method of aiming known as point shooting). Acquire firing grip, draw gun (finger off trigger) and orient muzzle towards target, finger on trigger no sooner than when muzzle is parallel to ground. A "Speed Rock" wouldn't change that...but the 80's called and say they want that technique back anyway .

 

[Coltdriver]

I got Col Applegate's booklet on point shooting years ago. There are several excellent reasons to use this technique. I use it exclusively and practice it every time I go to the range. It takes one cool calm individual to actually use sights in a life or death situation. Think about how often you have ever pulled your weapon. Check out Applegates logic behind the technique.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Col. Applegate was one one of my personal mentors.
He was one in a million.

 

[Craig_AR]

Living close to DC in Virginia, my primary range is at NRA headquarters. A great indoor range with strong safety standards and superb air handling. However, they have a firm rule that all shots must be using sights; no point shooting allowed. Some range officers have allowed me to shoot from a low-hold position (near waist) using laser sights, but other ROs have disallowed that form, insisting that using the sights means eyeballs along the sight line at the barrel, even when using laser sights.
Do any others face this no-point shooting rule at your ranges?
(I think that rule is in place because novices first trying point shooting may end up pointing high and shooting into the ceiling, which can wreck the target handling system.)

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Living close to DC in Virginia, my primary range is at NRA headquarters. A great indoor range with strong safety standards and superb air handling. However, they have a firm rule that all shots must be using sights; no point shooting allowed. Some range officers have allowed me to shoot from a low-hold position (near waist) using laser sights, but other ROs have disallowed that form, insisting that using the sights means eyeballs along the sight line at the barrel, even when using laser sights.
Do any others face this no-point shooting rule at your ranges?
(I think that rule is in place because novices first trying point shooting may end up pointing high and shooting into the ceiling, which can wreck the target handling system.)

It is possible to practice shoulder level point shooting at such a range with none the wiser.
Be it one hand or two, just bring the gun up to chin level and fire away without using the sights.
This is how I train my armed guard students and, during FOF I see them shooting from below eye level without ever being so instructed.

 

[strambo]

Yeah, you can practice shoulder point shooting with either hand and no one can tell you are focusing on the target as opposed to the sights. Beyond that, the bulk of your PS practice can be in your home dry-fire, with a laser, and/or with an airsoft gun practicing all the techniques out to 5 yds or so.

 

[Sarge]

I spent several years shooting competition fast draw in Mo & Ks in the 60s - like you see in the movie gun fights.
You Never got the gun much above the hips as you fired just after clearing the holster. We were shooting at a man sized target, with a 4 or 5" red tail light lense as the target, at about 25 or so feet. Indoors we used wax bullets propelled by a primer - which was still powerful enuf that after several hits the red lense broke and had to be replaced. Outdoors we used reduced load live ammo.
Speed was measured by a timer that you had you gun hand on and started when you drew. Hitting the target in a specified area stopped the timer.
I was never the fastest guy there, but regularly in the top 1/3. I still have my gun belt and single action Colt 38/40 with 5 1/2" bbl. Most guys used a 4 3/4" bbl, but I like the longer bbl.
Unfortunately I got transferred to Colorado and couldn't find any such clubs so hung up my gun so to speak.
Sarge

 

[Rick McC.]

Living close to DC in Virginia, my primary range is at NRA headquarters. A great indoor range with strong safety standards and superb air handling. However, they have a firm rule that all shots must be using sights; no point shooting allowed. Some range officers have allowed me to shoot from a low-hold position (near waist) using laser sights, but other ROs have disallowed that form, insisting that using the sights means eyeballs along the sight line at the barrel, even when using laser sights.
Do any others face this no-point shooting rule at your ranges?
(I think that rule is in place because novices first trying point shooting may end up pointing high and shooting into the ceiling, which can wreck the target handling system.)

Shoot IDPA.

I've been using IDPA practices and matches to keep up my threat focused skills for the last few years.

You often shoot on the move, draw and reload using a cover garment, and can pick up a few other useful skills along the way.

 

[Gun Master]

I believe in study, plan, practice, and play it cool.

Once I've determined me or my loved ones are threatened (and others), I'll draw, point (hip or eye), and fire.

Let's get real. After making all preparations, you have to make split-second decisions.
You don't get to choose when, where, how, or how fast.
The life of you and others may be (or are) in jeopardy .

 

[Zendude]

In my very limited experience practicing point and hip shooting, the fit of the gun in your hand becomes very critical. A Bersa Thunder seems to fit my hand like a glove and ideal weight and balance for my hand and arm strength. My point shooting with it is much more accurate with than other pistols I own.

 

[Kendal Black]

...I really learned how to do it from Jim Cirillo about 30 years ago.

Jim used to say if you were using sights, even in a fight, you're target shooting. One method he taught was gun silhouette. Ideal to use if your target is wider than the rear view of your gun from your perspective. You bring the gun up to eye level and your looking at the back of your gun. It's bigger and easier to align than your sights...

This is a key point also in the Fairbairn-Sykes method from the nineteen-thirties.

My own experiments suggest that it is advantageous if I get the pistol up into my line of vision, so that both pistol and target are in my field of view. Looking for a formal sight picture takes extra time--but a sight picture will sometimes show up just in the process of aligning the gun by coarser visual cues.

Something Mas sad Ayoob was teaching at some point--maybe he still does--is to hold your pistol slightly low, so that you see the front sight standing up above the rear notch. You use the front blade in the manner of a shotgun bead, rather than trying to align the blade in the notch.

Other people may be a bit more coordinated than me, but I find hip shooting unreliable--too approximate in accuracy-- when compared to getting the gun up where I can see it. There are several ideas about the best way to go about it, but the important point seems to be placing gun and target together in the same visual field.

 

[Gun Master]

All things equal, he who shoots first, shoots last .

 

[strambo]

Other people may be a bit more coordinated than me, but I find hip shooting unreliable--too approximate in accuracy-- when compared to getting the gun up where I can see it. There are several ideas about the best way to go about it, but the important point seems to be placing gun and target together in the same visual field.

Yes...but:

Keep relative distance in context. IMO, hip-shooting is best kept to 4yds or less (the OP's groups are acceptable, but would have been better at the 12ft distance I recommend, 3/4 hip or shoulder point is better at 5yds). Try hip shooting focusing on a precise point on a target at 3yds. You should be pleased with the results. The shoulder point is definitely more accurate and is better suited for ranges beyond where the average person would (should) be hip-shooting, like 5-7yds.

You need to have practiced a plan to cover the distance from 0ft out to the max range you could possibly need. 0-2yds is easy, a retention position. Long range (10yds and over) is easy, use sights. The range beyond 2yds but under 10 is where we have an overlap of multiple PS techniques and sighted fire. Beyond a retention position, a few more PS techniques make sense. Hip, Pos 3 (since you practice it within the draw stroke anyway) and then shoulder point for those longer range point shots.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Just to clarify, I wan't "shooting from the hip", although I understand that is considered point shooting too.

I was getting the gun up to shoulder/chin level and pointing where I was looking.

Strambo I think you're splitting hairs with your recommended 12ft, I was only 3ft further. I agree that shooting from a low ready or "hip" shooting, for SD purposes is probably best suited to 10ft or less.

 

[strambo]

Just to clarify, I wan't "shooting from the hip", although I understand that is considered point shooting too.

I was getting the gun up to shoulder/chin level and pointing where I was looking.

Strambo I think you're splitting hairs with your recommended 12ft, I was only 3ft further. I agree that shooting from a low ready or "hip" shooting, for SD purposes is probably best suited to 10ft or less.

I miss-understood your OP, I'm tracking now. Not splitting hairs with the 3ft if you actually were shooting from the hip, but you weren't. With practice, you'll get those groups down shooting shoulder point at 5yds.

Practice shifting your focus as you shoot. Go from belly button, to sternum, to nose, shooting from hip through extension to shoulder point. Your bullets should follow your focus. This is a "zipper," for extra-credit do it from the draw while moving.