Point Shooting

[Matthew Temkin]

Oh I'm sure you're right, because trainers like yourself put so much emphasis on not using the freekin things that under stress you're reduced to your level of training. It's why so many beat cops that have limited training have issues hitting anything unless they're at handshake distance.

And yet these officers are usually trained in nothing but aimed, sighted shooting methods.
How do you explain their dismal hit rate?
And just how many armed encounters---with or without shots being fired-- have you been in?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Oh I'm sure you're right, because trainers like yourself put so much emphasis on not using the freekin things that under stress you're reduced to your level of training. It's why so many beat cops that have limited training have issues hitting anything unless they're at handshake distance.

You seem to be taking this scenario to the extreme. I don't think anyone's saying shooting using sights isn't an integral part of SD practice, but there ARE several folks that deem point shooting as worthwhile IN ADDITION.

I'd love to see some video from you of FOF or real life scenarios where someone is being attacked at 15ft or less and drawing and lining up sights to stop the threat.

I know for a fact there are many FOF simunition videos out there where the defenders talk after the fact about not using their sights.

 

[JSH1]

And yet these officers are usually trained in nothing but aimed, sighted shooting methods.
How do you explain their dismal hit rate?

It is much harder to hit moving people than stationary paper targets.

 

[mavracer]

And yet these officers are usually trained in nothing but aimed, sighted shooting methods.

I've watched plenty of local qualifications and most barely know how to actually use the sights.
The premium put on close range shooting has made qualifications a joke to somebody that can actually shoot. As a matter of point several years ago I passed the Wichita PD quals with a Seacamp.

 

[mavracer]

I'd love to see some video from you of FOF or real life scenarios where someone is being attacked at 15ft or less and drawing and lining up sights to stop the threat.

You're not paying attention, I don't have any problems getting hits at 15-20 feet without sights. I just don't practice in order to do it.
Tell you what practice so that you can draw and get a A zone hit on a IPSC target in under .8 seconds at 15 yards consistently, then see how well you can point shoot a 15 feet.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't have any problems getting hits at 15-20 feet without sights.

Great. I'm not that good. I do not shoot enough anymore.

My problem is that, if I am ambushed by someone who starts from wherever he might start without warning (no buzzer, and not attacked by someone starting from "down range"), I seriously doubt that I will be shooting at him while he is still fifteen feet away, much less twenty. At a really close distance I doubt that I will even able to to find the sights timely.

Thus, point shooting it will have to be. And in order to develop the muscle memory for that, I need practice.

I could practice all day assuming the proper stance, drawing, gripping, presenting, aiming with the front sight, and pressing the trigger, and in the interest of full disclosure that's what I generally do, but should the balloon really go up, I don't imagine I will react that way at all.

 

[LiveLife]

We fight like we train. I practice point shooting not with the intent to use it regularly but to have as an option when/if I NEED to use it. I like having options. I consider point shooting like a spare tire.

Try this at home or range.

Set a full size target at 3 yards and with your eyes closed, draw and point at COM. Open your eyes to see where the sights point. I have run this drill with new/seasoned shooters and some actually missed the target at 3 yards. Many LEO end up shooting the ground/floor.

If you think you can hit COM with a quick draw from holster shot from hip, can you be sure when it counts? Only way you can be sure is to practice before you have to do it under pressure.

As I posted, point shooting is just another "fun" thing you can do at the range. If you practice enough, you will get 4"-6" groups at 3-7 yards on multiple targets even with your eyes closed - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

You're not paying attention, I don't have any problems getting hits at 15-20 feet without sights. I just don't practice in order to do it.
Tell you what practice so that you can draw and get a A zone hit on a IPSC target in under .8 seconds at 15 yards consistently, then see how well you can point shoot a 15 feet.

Well then I bow down to you as a shooting god.

I feel like most folks are more like me. When I first started with accuracy shooting it was 10yrds minimum, mostly more than than that. The first time I brought a plate into 15ft I didn't even hit the plate, even though I could put decent groups on a plate at 35ft+. And that's just target shooting.

Defensive shooting encompasses a wider array of skills of which point shooting has a place at closer distance. For most folks just because you can dump a mag at 15yds with sights doesn't mean you'll do the same with no sights at 15ft.

 

[LiveLife]

+1. Doing a mag dump on a moving target that is shooting at you or trying to stab you is more difficult than people realize, especially under pressure/stress. We cannot always extrapolate our range practice with static targets to real life situations.

When our USPSA match stage designer incorporated pneumatic devices that moved targets erratically so we could not time our shots, even the seasoned shooters initially had difficulty hitting them. Yes, we were proficient enough to the point where we were shooting clay pigeons popped in the air on 3-gun match stages with our pistols (mainly because we were able to time our shots). But when the factor of random quick movement of targets were introduced, especially with single strong/weak hand, out hit ratio went way down.

When someone is trying to kill you, you cannot afford to have any missed shots.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Well then I bow down to you as a shooting god.

I feel like most folks are more like me. When I first started with accuracy shooting it was 10yrds minimum, mostly more than than that. The first time I brought a plate into 15ft I didn't even hit the plate, even though I could put decent groups on a plate at 35ft+. And that's just target shooting.

Defensive shooting encompasses a wider array of skills of which point shooting has a place at closer distance. For most folks just because you can dump a mag at 15yds with sights doesn't mean you'll do the same with no sights at 15ft.

When he can do it with a bad guy either shooting back or about to I will start my bow.
I am still waiting to hear about his combat and law enforcement experience.
I have found most who critizise / sneer at police shooting skills have neither.
Yes, many cops have issues with pistols, but I have met dozens who are deadly dudes.
And the reason the emphasis is on close range is because that is where most of them occur.
Believe it or not, but extreme marksman ship is low on the totem pole as an officer survival tool.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

It is much harder to hit moving people than stationary paper targets.

Or maybe there are other factors that have nothing to do with long range marksmanship skill.

 

[JSH1]

Or maybe there are other factors that have nothing to do with long range marksmanship skill.

Who said anything about long range?

 

[mavracer]

I consider point shooting like a spare tire.

So you regularly put the spare tire on your car and drive around?

 

[mavracer]

For most folks just because you can dump a mag at 15yds with sights doesn't mean you'll do the same with no sights at 15ft.

That's because "most folks" mag dumps aren't fast or accurate, practice to the point that your splits are under .2 and the group is palm size, practice until you can you can track the sights at this speed from shot to shot. Then come back and do a mag dump at 5 yards.

 

[LiveLife]

So you regularly put the spare tire on your car and drive around?

No. Spare tire is good to have and not need it but bad to need it and not have it.

When our family used to go to the desert to ride dirt bikes and quads, we always took 2 spare tires for our truck. Many people thought we were excessive but on one trip, we needed both spares.

 

[mavracer]

No. Spare tire is good to have and not need it but bad to need it and not have it.

Nobody's saying to not carry a spare tire, just that if you're a good driver you shouldn't need to practice driving with the spare.

 

[entropy]

Nobody's saying to not carry a spare tire, just that if you're a good driver you shouldn't need to practice driving with the spare.

Spare tires are not as perishable as shooting skills. The comparision isn't the best. I still practice speed rocks. <Robert Plant voice> Does anybody remember speed rocks?</Robert Plant voice>

 

[strambo]

mavracer,

You are definitely a better marksman than I will likely ever be. From a marksmanship dimension you are correct; you do dot need to practice PS (outside of a retention position). You can hit w/in 5yds with your index, 1 hand or 2, extended, from pos. 3 or in between.

You are also correct that the average LE officer is not a particularly good marksman. That being said, they still have to "qualify" by hitting a target say 80% of the time or more from 3 out to 10-15yds. So, why do they only hit an entire person 20-30% of the time at 15ft? They have proven they can be 5x-10x more accurate or they wouldn't be on the street. If square range marksmanship was all that matters (to get better in a gunfight,go to the range more), then their combat hit rate at 15ft should approach 100% already.

The answer is because a gunfight has 3 dimensions. Skill (marksmanship/gunhandling/tactics), physiological factors of stress (variable) and the third is psychologial (fighting mindset, willingness to kill, other mental distortions under stress).

Studies of air combat have shown that the survivability rate of the first 2 encounters is very low. The odds of surviving #3 are pretty good and after that they are very high. It is a learning curve nearly as steep as a cliff. These are the "Aces," the first time they "saw the elephant" survival could be based more on luck (or the other guy doing worse). 2nd time they were able to tap into more of their skill, keep more control over their physiological and emotional response. 3rd time on-easier still and it levels off.

I would never want to get into a gunfight with the guy who shot OBL even if I could beat him on the range any day if I had the flu. He said he quit the Navy because he stopped getting adrenaline dumps in a firefight and that scared him! In a gun fight, he is probably operating at 95% of his range capability. Since I have some FoF training and a stressful military background, I'll be charitable and give myself a 50% combat capability rate. Me at 50% never beats this combat "Ace" at 95% no matter how much better I was on the range.

The best way to up that percentage is through more stressful events not more range training. An IPSC GM with no stress experience operating at 40% in their 1st combat engagement will never beat a class B shooter tapping into 90% of theirs.

I've seen video Leatham struggle to remember 4+4 running a drill unfamiliar to him (his marksmanship was still good, the problem was the delay). Not knocking TGO either, it is awesome he put himself into unfamiliar territory...training outside one's comfort zone is not the best for the ego, but necessary and it's super cool he is willing to put himself and those lessons out there for us.

I've read an account of a high level shooter doing a fast mag dump into a small group no stress. The trainer then tells him to repeat that, but while he's shooting the trainer will kick his legs (not enough to affect his balance or be unsafe, just light kicks). Shooter then goes bang.....bang..bang......bang etc. Slower, larger group. Here's the "kicker" (HA!), the trainer didn't touch him. Both examples are only showing how the third psychological dimension can have a dramatic effect on performance even with relatively minor unexpected changes, to say nothing of combat stress.

My favorite references are "Training at the Speed of Life" Kenneth R. Murray which I mentioned before as well as "On Combat" by LTC Dave Grossman and to a lesser extent the more controversial "On Killing" also by Grossman. The first two are nuts and bolts practical books on how we operate under stress and how to train for it.

 

[mavracer]

The answer is because a gunfight has 3 dimensions. Skill (marksmanship/gunhandling/tactics), physiological factors of stress (variable) and the third is psychologial (fighting mindset, willingness to kill, other mental distortions under stress).

How are the second 2 helped by "practicing to not use the sights"

 

[mavracer]

Spare tires are not as perishable as shooting skills.

Driving especially performance driving is

 

[strambo]

How are the second 2 helped by "practicing to not use the sights"

Good question...they aren't. PS, sighted fire, a combination of, or shooting while doing flips is all just skill development.

However, the converse is not true. The other 2 may preclude being able to use the sighs. Should this be the case, the subject will need to have developed the skill of getting effective hits without them.

You developed the skill through mastery of sighted fire (unconscious competence) along with your index. By way of carryover (plus extensive competition and practice shooting very close targets), you also developed the skill of getting fast hits w/o a need for visual sight confirmation.

A more direct route to gain the skill of getting hits w/o the sights would be to add in deliberate PS training and practice. We already know what happens on each extreme. The average cop is on the extreme of minimal training and we see their dismal hit rates. You are on the extreme of many years and tens of thousands of rounds. The latter is unrealistic for almost everyone.

The learning curve for PS is very steep, there just is a lot less to focus on so the skills can be picked up fast, better maintained and seem to be less likely to degrade as much under stress.

With beginners, they often shoot faster and more accurate via PS because their minds are no longer in the way. Intermediate shooters is about the same, but at the intermediate level they would be at a disadvantage if they never practiced it before and were forced into it under stress. They haven't truly mastered their index yet. Advanced levels are where the most vehement opposition comes to PS because they honestly don't see the need for much, if any, PS practice based on their experience (and they are right). It's just that only a single digit percentage of the shooting population will get there and effective combat hit capability can be built with a lot less time and effort. Namely, add in some dedicated PS training and practice, then stress-innoculate it via FoF or other reality based simulation methodology.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Good question...they aren't. PS, sighted fire, a combination of, or shooting while doing flips is all just skill development.

However, the converse is not true. The other 2 may preclude being able to use the sighs. Should this be the case, the subject will need to have developed the skill of getting effective hits without them.

You developed the skill through mastery of sighted fire (unconscious competence) along with your index. By way of carryover (plus extensive competition and practice shooting very close targets), you also developed the skill of getting fast hits w/o a need for visual sight confirmation.

A more direct route to gain the skill of getting hits w/o the sights would be to add in deliberate PS training and practice. We already know what happens on each extreme. The average cop is on the extreme of minimal training and we see their dismal hit rates. You are on the extreme of many years and tens of thousands of rounds. The latter is unrealistic for almost everyone.

The learning curve for PS is very steep, there just is a lot less to focus on so the skills can be picked up fast, better maintained and seem to be less likely to degrade as much under stress.

With beginners, they often shoot faster and more accurate via PS because their minds are no longer in the way. Intermediate shooters is about the same, but at the intermediate level they would be at a disadvantage if they never practiced it before and were forced into it under stress. They haven't truly mastered their index yet. Advanced levels are where the most vehement opposition comes to PS because they honestly don't see the need for much, if any, PS practice based on their experience (and they are right). It's just that only a single digit percentage of the shooting population will get there and effective combat hit capability can be built with a lot less time and effort. Namely, add in some dedicated PS training and practice, then stress-innoculate it via FoF or other reality based simulation methodology.

Which is why so many of my novice students do so well in the low light.

 

[strambo]

Probably my favorite video in regards to "aiming". Neither from a PS or a sighted fire perspective really (mostly about sights, but puts their importance in the proper place), just the mechanics of shooting a gun fast and accurate.

 

[mustbe]

Most of us have practiced pointing with our index fingers all of our lives and already developed muscle memory. Hence why point shooting works. When you are practicing with a pistol, focus pointing with the index finger.

Don't believe me?


From where you are sitting, point at the nearest light switch or door knob with your index finger. Point shooting utilizes this muscle memory we have conditioned our bodies during our lifetime. We are simply "strapping" a barrel parallel to our index finger to send bullets to the point of aim.

I agree. I narrowed my ccw choice to three firearms. After shooting them I bought my least favorite and most expensive because it hit without conscience aiming.

In a self defense situation sights are a luxury that cannot be relied upon.

 

[LiveLife]

+1. Practice makes perfect.

Jerry Miculek at 2:25 minute mark of video on Bill drill (6 rapid shots at 7 yards). "Make it happen ... you don't have to do a whole lot to make it happen." At 12:00 minute mark, "Least amount of work with most amount of consistency"



1:45 minute mark of video - "Bill drill ... teaches you rapid fire. Good technique is foundation of all your shooting." AT 4:35 minute mark, "If you watch the muzzle of the gun ... rapid fire ... not allowing the platform to jump at all ... regardless of caliber ... technique to hold the pistol"



Slow motion video of drawing from holster and rapid fire (Note steadiness of muzzle shot after shot).