RealGun
Member
Let's review
We're talking jacketed here, not how terrible the FCD is on lead.
We're talking jacketed here, not how terrible the FCD is on lead.
Preferred .357 bullet seating and crimp dies
- Thread starter Schwing
- Start date
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Bama Drifter
Member
hmmm...
So as a newer fella to reloading, I just had a batch of .357mag where I crushed 3 or 4 out of 100 loads. Mind you this was with thrice fired brass, and I own zero trimming apparatus. I love my Lee dies and think the FCD is the best thing since sliced bread. Does the investment in a trimmer really pay off? Isn't is supremely labor intensive? Thanks.
P.S. Are the crushed loads salvageable or shootable in a Ruger strength action???
So as a newer fella to reloading, I just had a batch of .357mag where I crushed 3 or 4 out of 100 loads. Mind you this was with thrice fired brass, and I own zero trimming apparatus. I love my Lee dies and think the FCD is the best thing since sliced bread. Does the investment in a trimmer really pay off? Isn't is supremely labor intensive? Thanks.
P.S. Are the crushed loads salvageable or shootable in a Ruger strength action???
Reloadron
Contributing Member
This is a .357 Magnum SAAMI drawing. The drawing clearly shows both, the cartridge dimensions (top) and the chamber specifications (bottom). We dan see the Maximum Cartridge Length is 1.290" - 0.020" so any cartridge between 1.270" and 1.290" meets SAAMI specification for 357 cartridge. Most loading manuals suggest a trim to length of 1.280" or about 0.010" below maximum length. Note the trim length is "suggested". The idea behind trimming at all is not just to make sure the cases are within tolerance but to make sure the cases are uniform in all of their lengths. From our friends at starline Brass:
Straight walled handgun cartridges like the 357 Magnum really don't change much following initial trim and setup. It's all about loading consistent brass. For the crimp to happen at the same point on every case the cases should be of uniform length. Once a seater die is set and adjusted the cartridges will be uniform length but depending on the individual cartridge lengths the crimp points may vary up and down a little.
Define "crushed or post a picturs? No, crushed cases are not generally able to be shot and won't chamber depending on how you define crushed. If the Lee FCD works for you then by all means use it. Some people like the die and some don't as can pretty much be seen in the thread post.
You need to understand how case uniformity plays into bullet seating and crimp.
Ron
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RealGun
Member
The width of the crimp groove allows for variable case length, so seating to the middle with a standard length case has some logic to it.
243winxb
Member
Seating die crimp adjustment
RCBS type crimp- Taper or roll. Best if trim length is all the same, if not, place the longest (trim length) case, of the lot,* in the shell holder. Raise case/ram to top. Place seat/crimp die in press and turn down till crimper lightly contacts the case mouth. Back die out 1/4 turn. Place bullet on case mouth, raise to top. Adjust seating plug down till correct OAL is reached. Turn seating plug out/up so it can not contact the bullet. Now screw the die down by hand as hard as you can. You have just crimped the cartridge. Now screw down the seater plug to touch the bullet. Lower ram/cartridge and turn the seating plug down a hair more. Lock die and seating plug. Double check the OAL. If a 45, 40, 9mm wont pass the plunk test, the taper crimp needs to be a tiny bit more, or the OAL is to long, or the cast* bullet diameter is to large.
RCBS type crimp- Taper or roll. Best if trim length is all the same, if not, place the longest (trim length) case, of the lot,* in the shell holder. Raise case/ram to top. Place seat/crimp die in press and turn down till crimper lightly contacts the case mouth. Back die out 1/4 turn. Place bullet on case mouth, raise to top. Adjust seating plug down till correct OAL is reached. Turn seating plug out/up so it can not contact the bullet. Now screw the die down by hand as hard as you can. You have just crimped the cartridge. Now screw down the seater plug to touch the bullet. Lower ram/cartridge and turn the seating plug down a hair more. Lock die and seating plug. Double check the OAL. If a 45, 40, 9mm wont pass the plunk test, the taper crimp needs to be a tiny bit more, or the OAL is to long, or the cast* bullet diameter is to large.
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RealGun
Member
Eh, now I gotta measure them all too.:banghead: I can run one through the case trimmer as fast as I can measure it. That "longest (trim length)" could just be my standard length.
In 38/357 my new Starline is mostly 1.275, and that is a trim length found in some load data. Rather than trim them all shorter, that is what I use. Very few produced any shavings when running the whole batch of new brass, and only a few running a bag of fired brass of undetermined times reloaded. I wrote "1.275" as the setup length on the bag for the 38/357 pilot.
The odd ball was new 44 Mag brass shorter than expected after looking up the standard. I wonder what that's about.
Schwing
Member
I really like the look of that Redding profile crimp die. I put one on backorder at midway. I think I am going to test that out with my lead bullets and stick with the LFCD on my jacketed bullets. I was able to get my hands on a second Lee bullet seating/crimp die so I will just use those to seat only.
Part of my problem with this whole change in presses is that I had everything good and dialed in on my old tool heads for all of my calibers. I know this sounds super lazy but I even bought a couple of extra tool heads and sets of dies for calibers where I use different bullets. I never even had to touch them except for the occasional lube removal from the seating die. All my loads were accurate, reliable, etc.
With the new press, I am just trying to get things back in order. Though my load recipes have not changed, they just are not quite there yet on accuracy since the switch. I figured that, since I need to do some reworking anyway, it is as good a time as any to add a powder check and switch to seating and crimping separately.
I appreciate all of the responses. When I get the Redding die I will report the results.
As a side note, I pulled out my 1500 or so new starline brass cases I have been sitting on since last year. The dozen or so I measured were all within .002 of each other so I think I will use those for a bit and avoid trimming as long as possible... It sounds like all kinds of fun but
Part of my problem with this whole change in presses is that I had everything good and dialed in on my old tool heads for all of my calibers. I know this sounds super lazy but I even bought a couple of extra tool heads and sets of dies for calibers where I use different bullets. I never even had to touch them except for the occasional lube removal from the seating die. All my loads were accurate, reliable, etc.
With the new press, I am just trying to get things back in order. Though my load recipes have not changed, they just are not quite there yet on accuracy since the switch. I figured that, since I need to do some reworking anyway, it is as good a time as any to add a powder check and switch to seating and crimping separately.
I appreciate all of the responses. When I get the Redding die I will report the results.
As a side note, I pulled out my 1500 or so new starline brass cases I have been sitting on since last year. The dozen or so I measured were all within .002 of each other so I think I will use those for a bit and avoid trimming as long as possible... It sounds like all kinds of fun but
243winxb
Member
I measure 10 out of 50 from the same lot of brass . If using range brass that grows at different rates, you better check them all. If all are within .005" its not a major problem.
RealGun
Member
My Redding doesn't "roll" very well except on standard jacketed diameter. The RCBS Cowboy combo seat/crimp is better, since it anticipates lead diameters. My Lyman set does well too.
Bama Drifter
Member
Hey Ron, by crushed I mean about a couple or 4 cases got run down to .38spl OAL when I forgot to adjust up my seating depth for a caliber change. If the web of the case is only wavy halfway down from the bullet is it a go or no go? Sorry I don't have opportunity to photo now.
ljnowell
Member
I just switched from a Lee Pro1000 to a Dillon 650. Almost all of my dies are Lee and have been 100% to my satisfaction until now.
The Dillon tool head is a bit thicker. The Lee dies still work but they are barely long enough. In some cases, I have to put the locking collar on the bottom instead of the top. It is functional but it bothers me
To date, I have been using the seating/crimp die for .357 but want to seat and crimp separately on my heavier loads. These usually consist of 158 grain JSPs from Zero bullets with either 14.9 grains of 2400 or 17 grains of 300mp. My big issue seating and crimping with the same die on these is that, even though they have a cannelure it is pretty stiff so if the seating is not 100% complete before it starts to crimp, it crushes the case. The only way I have seen to prevent this is to back off on the crimp which I really don't want to do on these loads.
Like some, I have had horrible luck with the FCD and lead bullets. Having said that and leaving out a long story, I ended up with 2 of them for .357.
with that in mind, I would like to know the following:
1. Would you recommend for or against the FCD for jacked bullets in .357?
2. If I replace my bullet seating and/or crimp dies, what would you recommend? I am not opposed to spending the $ if something else is substantially better.
Aw man, why did you downgrade presses? Lol, just kidding man. The 650 is a fantastic press, I think you will enjoy it for years to come.
The real question is, though, what are you doing with the old pro1k? You know, there are always is crazy red press hounds looking for more!
vaalpens
Member
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- Aug 14, 2014
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^^ Works for me.
I have just two weeks of experience loading 38/357, so my take on 38/357 crimping dies probably will not influence anybody.
I use Lee dies and I am happy with them. I have nothing against the Lee FCD since I use it for my 9mm, 40s&w and 357sig loads. I don't own a case trimmer.
For 38/357 I sort my brass by headstamp and length. Sorting by headstamp is probably another topic, but sorting by length help me to accurately apply a crimp using my Lee seating die. Since the cases are all the same length, I have not had any crushed cases. I do seating and crimping in two steps and it works great for a 38/357 novice like me.
ljnowell
Member
Sorry, I neglected to address the main issue in my post. If I already had two FCD in 38/357 I would definitely use one with the jacketed bullets, just not lead.
Schwing
Member
I can't tell you how much I love my Pro1000. I don't intend to part with it at all. It just became a dedicated press for 45ACP.
As someone who now owns both a Lee Pro1000, and the Dillon 650, I get a kick out of the Dillon snobs who look at the pro1000 people like second class citizens
. You are right, the Dillon is a great press and the 5 stations sure are nice... but for sub $200, the Pro1000 is nothing to snub.
ljnowell
Member
I can't tell you how much I love my Pro1000. I don't intend to part with it at all. It just became a dedicated press for 45ACP.
As someone who now owns both a Lee Pro1000, and the Dillon 650, I get a kick out of the Dillon snobs who look at the pro1000 people like second class citizens
You are right, the Dillon is a great press and the 5 stations sure are nice... but for sub $200, the Pro1000 is nothing to snub.
I've loved my pro1k since the day I got it. It's a very simple functioning press that simply works. I appreciate Dillon presses, but right now all I own is Lee and I'm happy with them.
Schwing
Member
Another question along these same lines:
On my Dillon 650, using separate seating and crimping operations, I am seeing variances in OAL that are bothering me. For example, I will have a desired OAL of 1.565 and see anywhere from 1.550 to 1.570 or +-.005.
This is using brand new starline cases that don't vary more than .002 and bullets that don't vary more than .002 (cast).
I have tightened the shell plate, etc but can't seem to lock it down. I am curious what acceptable variance in OAL for .357 should be and what I might be missing. It is driving me nuts!
On my Dillon 650, using separate seating and crimping operations, I am seeing variances in OAL that are bothering me. For example, I will have a desired OAL of 1.565 and see anywhere from 1.550 to 1.570 or +-.005.
This is using brand new starline cases that don't vary more than .002 and bullets that don't vary more than .002 (cast).
I have tightened the shell plate, etc but can't seem to lock it down. I am curious what acceptable variance in OAL for .357 should be and what I might be missing. It is driving me nuts!
243winxb
Member
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1230 Never used one. But .010" maximun variation is common.
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RealGun
Member
Is the seating plug compatible with the bullet nose shape?
Kevin Rohrer
Member
If you are using a Dillon, use their dies, especially for pistol calibers.
Schwing
Member
I really don't believe the dies or bullets play into it. They are the same dies and bullets I was using on my Pro1000. On that press, I was seeing maybe +-.003 variances in OAL.
I need to add that I measured many, many more of these last night and the variance on the Dillon was even worse than I thought. It is more like +-.008.
I have run rounds through the press one at a time and it does not appear to have the problem (at least it is much less, more like +-.002) when there is only one round in the press. When I run all stations full, it really gets bad.
The only thought I have so far is that the Starline brass I am using was already sized and primed on my Pro1000. I used to do that in its own run so that I could use a powder check on the second run. I am wondering if maybe the Dillon actually needs that tension on the sizing die and primer station to kind of balance things out and prevent the shell plate from flexing. It is kind of a stretch but all I can come up with at the moment. I am nearing the end of that batch that is pre-sized and primed so I will rule that out shortly.
I need to add that I measured many, many more of these last night and the variance on the Dillon was even worse than I thought. It is more like +-.008.
I have run rounds through the press one at a time and it does not appear to have the problem (at least it is much less, more like +-.002) when there is only one round in the press. When I run all stations full, it really gets bad.
The only thought I have so far is that the Starline brass I am using was already sized and primed on my Pro1000. I used to do that in its own run so that I could use a powder check on the second run. I am wondering if maybe the Dillon actually needs that tension on the sizing die and primer station to kind of balance things out and prevent the shell plate from flexing. It is kind of a stretch but all I can come up with at the moment. I am nearing the end of that batch that is pre-sized and primed so I will rule that out shortly.
243winxb
Member
Any die that does or does not contact the shell plate , may have an effect on cartridge OAL. Making contact will act as a positive stop. But deck height of the shell plate may be different at each station, resulting in a large variation in OAL. A standard shell holder has a deck height of .125"
Schwing
Member
I finally got my Redding profile crimp die. It was on back-order for a couple of weeks. I have to say, it makes a nice even crimp without swaging down my lead bullets at all. I was a little worried about that goofy locking ring with the set screw in it but it doesn't seem to move at all once it is set and tightened. Over all, I think it was a good investment.
After reading comments here and loading a few of my jacketed rounds, I am going to keep the FCD for those. It doesn't swage the jacketed bullets at all and it makes a nice, heavy and pretty straight crimp.
It obviously has not solved my OAL issue but I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and do some brass trimming and then go from there. I know that much of this is not 100% necessary but I grew up working in my Dad's CNC shop. Seeing variances of over .001 on my calipers or mics just makes me cringe.
After reading comments here and loading a few of my jacketed rounds, I am going to keep the FCD for those. It doesn't swage the jacketed bullets at all and it makes a nice, heavy and pretty straight crimp.
It obviously has not solved my OAL issue but I am going to tuck my tail between my legs and do some brass trimming and then go from there. I know that much of this is not 100% necessary but I grew up working in my Dad's CNC shop. Seeing variances of over .001 on my calipers or mics just makes me cringe.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
In this case since the OP would rather not trim his handgun brass and the Lee FCD doesn't need it to be trimmed and he is loading jacketed bullets and not lead, I see no reason why he can't just use the FCD he already owns...
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