Pretty basic question 'bout powders.

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BADUNAME30

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Well, maybe not really that 'basic' for us soot makin' beginers.
I think i understand one thing 'bout the differences in sifted sizes of powders in that it creats different burn rates.
Can anyone explain in detail, or give reference to an in depth reading,on why it is important to utilize certain 'size' powders in different applications. ie:2f in cannon, 3f in rifle,4f for ignition, etc.
From what i've been reading here. Apparently someone didn't know better and i ended up with 2#'s o' 2f fer my C&B pistols.

Oh yeah, i'm askin about real BP and not any 'substitues'.
 
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You could use FFG in a cap and ball revolver, your velocity won't be as high from what I understand but it can work. The different sizes of powder are of course for different applications because of different burn rates. I think it has to do with the amount of oxygen that is between the grains of powder, and the granules being closer together and having a faster burn rate.

But I'm no expert, I'm sure that there will be other members here that have more knowledge of exactly how powder burns. :)
 
Thanx Levi.
Yer beginin to touch on what i'm lookin for, i spose i should posed my question as to exactly WHY certain powders are used in said applications.
 
The "F" size refers, as you have mentioned, to the size of the gunpowder granules. The smaller the size, the more overall area when fired, so the faster the burn rate. So you are correct. (It stems from a very old system of screens used to sift the finished powder.)

The different sizes were generally 1Fg is cannon, 2fg is muskets and some rifles, 3Fg is pistols and smaller caliber rifles, and 4Fg and smaller is for priming flintlocks and for use in some very very small pistols.

The slower the burn rate, the lower the pressure. Now for some folks they want to shoot heavy loads, perhaps maximum loads. Such loads might be safe for say an original Brown Bess musket, or a reproduction of the same musket, and they would most often use 2Fg powder in that musket as it would be between .75 - .80 caliber, depending on who made it and when. Many folks switch to 2Fg for .58 caliber (24 gauge) and larger bored rifles and guns. Some folks switch to 2Fg with 28 gauge or .54 caliber rifles or guns, but I use 3Fg for my .54 rifle. I don't use anything near a max load, so the rule of thumb isn't set in stone.

However, IF you used a max load of say 120 grains of 2Fg in a 12 gauge caplock shotgun, and switched to the same load using 4Fg, you could easily load much more actual powder as you'd eliminate the tiny spaces between the granules when using the smaller sized powder. Black powder is measured for loading using grains of powder by volume while modern powder in a smokeless shotshell is loaded with grains of modern powder by weight. They are not interchangable systems of measuring, and the powders are also not interchangable.

So when you used the same powder measure, with the same setting, but switched to 4Fg..., you'd have actually added more powder, probably beyond the max load.

And..., since you used 4Fg, when it fired, the much faster burn rate could far exceed the max pressure the barrel can handle, perhaps well beyond tested pressure (called "proof") of the gun.., and you'd get a burst breech or barrel.

So that's it in a nutshell.


You're 2Fg will work in a regular cap-n-ball revolver. Most of the Colt and Remington reproduction revolvers in .36 or .44 use from 10 to 18 grains of 3Fg..., but you can use the recommended powder loading in your manual and use 2Fg.

Something like a .44 Walker or .44 1st Model Dragoon often like 2Fg. A smooth bore .62 or larger "horse pistol" akin to that used by G. Washington or later by Wellington's cavalry would use 20 grains or more of 2Fg. Something like this NAA .22 cap-n-ball revolver uses something like 2 grains of 4Fg.

I hope this helps.

LD
 
Bingo David !!!
That is exactly what i was lookin for.
As i was reading it, it all startin comin back to me.
This is stuff that i knew long ago ang jist couldn't seem to pull out o' the recesses o' my grey matter.
If you don't mind i will print this for further study.
Again, thank you very much.
 
So if I'm using Pyrodex P or Goex FFF, do I load both by volume since one is heavier than the other? In a 44 Remmie.
 
By volume is the "rule of thumb" for Black Powder. The powder itself will change in weight depending upon climate and different powders are of varying weights between brand as well. Pyrodex on the other hand IS NOT Black Powder and the "rule of thumb" becomes an "ABSOLUTE RULE". Weigh Black Powder if you want but NEVER use those weights to determine how much Pyrodex P/RS to put into a gun.
 
Sidebar trivia:

The .45 Colt blackpowder blanks that are used in Mounted Cowboy Action Shooting are charged with cannon grade blackpowder. The larger granules don't burn completely, turning the revolver into a miniature shotgun...the unburned granules help pop the balloon targets when they run the stage.

Or so I am told....

http://www.sassnet.com/Mounted-What-is-001A.php
 
volume

say 120 grains of 2Fg in a 12 gauge caplock shotgun, and switched to the same load using 4Fg, you could easily load much more actual powder
120 grains in a 12 ga.? That'd be a four and a half dram load.
Most modern shotshells are dram equivalent to 2 3/4 and three drams.....four and a half is ten and eight gauge territory. I hunt upland game with a Navy Arms 12 ga. SXS...... 80 grains of FFg and 1 1/8oz shot. A three dram load.
There are BP load books. I have not seen a load heavier than 90 grains of FFg for an ounce and a quarter of shot.

Powder by volume.....I am glad that someone mentioned that the idea is a "rule of thumb". Yeah, it is important to measure the subs that way but it is unnecessary with real BP and may even be misleading. Example.....Swiss powder has a reputation for being "hotter" or more powerful than other powders, let's say Goex. One reason for that is that Swiss is denser than Goex...as much as 15% heavier for the same volume. Measured by volume....that 100 grain load of Goex can become a 115 grain load of Swiss.
I use a volume loader for my BP shooting but.....before I do, and especially when I am changing powders, I weigh out the volume drops.
 
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Looks like you got what you need, so this is FWIW.

I load 45 Colt and 44 Extra Long Russian with 3F, but have used 2F when I ran out of 3F and needed ammo for a CAS match. Couldn't tell the difference in those cartridges. For my shotgun, I load ~70 grains of 2F, never tried 3F, but the shotgun is a modern Stoeger, so it would probably be fine, not least because that load (a square lod from my MEC 600) is pretty light. As always with cartridge, all powder is compressed a little, no free space or cereal.

TS22
 
Four drams is a lot, I've loaded my own shotshells with BP before and three drams of Goex is a pretty stout load in my shotgun. I use 3 drams and 1 1/8th ounce of shot, all I can say is that load makes my 6 pound shotgun feel like an elephant gun, with buck it looks like a bunch of rifle bullets hitting the berm and disintegrating the patterning paper where they hit. The recovered buckshot look very deformed, even with hard lead.

But then again I use 3 drams of FFFG because it is cleaner than FFG and I get higher velocities, it's not bad. 2 1/2 drams seems more like a good target load though, I'm not killing zombies just breaking clays.

I have a question of my own, how is the pressure curve with finer versus courser granule sizes? If it is the same with all granulation sizes of blackpowder couldn't one in theory load a shotgun shell with a very light charge of FFFFG?

Internal ballistics fascinate me, I would like to know more about how different powders create different pressures and why. Anybody know of a good book on internal ballistics?

~Levi
 
Levi, you could make up light loads with 4fg in a shotshell but I don't think you would gain anything by doing so. In my experience 4fg burns a bit inconsistently. A couple years back I chronographed a few light loads of it in a Traditions .45-cal. Pioneer pistol. While I don't remember what speeds were attained, I do recall the velocities varied widely. This indicated to me that pressures were not consistent. In the same shooting session I also tested 1fg, 2fg, and 3fg in the same pistol. All three of those granulations yielded much more consistent velocities.
 
Yes, 120 grains of 2Fg is 4.4 drams, a very stout load, but there are some adjustable powder measures that will allow a person to "throw" a 110 - 120 grain load..., and I'm sure we all have experienced those people who think that since a powder measure will go that high, it should be tried out...., hence the use of it as a reference. I have not found a reason to exceed two and a half drams (70 grains roughly) in my shotguns to harvest game. BTW 120 grains of 2Fg would still be rather below the powder amount used to proof a 12 gauge barrel.

LD
 
Flintlock pan fuel

I live in the caribbean & shoot flint locks. I ordered black powder thru a gun shop in St. Croix several yrs a go & at a price of about $80 per lb. & having to smuggle it in thru French territory where it is legal & where we shoot, I find that I got Pyrodex. This does not work in a flintlock pan! I had about 2/3 lb of real blk. pdr. but that is just about finished. Does anybody know if I can use maybe shotgun powder or something else to continue shooting? match heads mixed with Pyrodex? Bulls-eye powder? Ordering a lb. of real blk. pdr. is out of the question. I've got enough blk. pdr for about 50 more shots.
Somebody please help! Prefer direct contact at: [email protected]
There has to be a solution! HELP!
 
Do you guys have those model rocket kits? You can crack the motors open and there's a pellet of BP inside, all you have to do is crush it and you've pretty much got FFFFG blackpowder.

Hahaha, i can't believe you posted that Levi.
We seem to currently have a bit of a shortage of ffffg in our neck and just last night i was thinkin 'bout postin a query this morn 'bout takin some ffg or fffg and crushin it.
Mortar and pestal ?
 
That's a very good idea Steve.
The primer to charge ratio is so different that possibly one could get enough primer powder out of one's pound of charge powder to suffice.
 
Yes, I've used it, and no, I noticed no lock time difference.

Keep in mind: with a well tuned lock, times are faster than the human brain can discern anyway.

With that said, I still use ffffg. I have a more than adequate supply, however.
 
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