Private Gun Sale Math

[Mainsail]

Just a mention, but when I try to sell anything, I always want the most money I can get for it. I'm not trying to do someone a favor, I'm not selling (whatever it may be) to promote a cause, I want the most I can get for it. I don't owe anyone a favor just because we both like guns or radios or whatever.

I have also seen someone selling something, guns included, that was priced higher than I could get it for locally. In that case I just move on. If I really want it then I might mention it to the person privately, but if they don't budge, I move on. No drama.

 

[quatin]

And the FFL and shipping is not calculated as a saving for the buyer... it's simply the loss the seller needs to suck up.

FFL and shipping costs should be calculated as part of the negotiable price. If you're negotiating with me for a $500 gun, and you say you can get it for $450 from GB + $50 FFL/shipping. What motivation do I have to go down to $450? Your opportunity cost is the same whether you buy it from me or GB. In fact, people on GB post cheaper knowing the buyer has to pay FLL and shipping. It's about opportunity costs, not face value cost of the gun.

 

[dogtown tom]

TexasGunbie:...Don't people realize that the moment they try to sell their used gun, they will not get back the original price tag...

Huh?

I've yet to lose money on any gun I've ever sold. Last new gun I bought was a Glock 26 for $440 at the Dallas Market Hall show in June. Of course there were sellers trying to get $550 for used Glocks without box, spare mag, etc.

Now, the dealer I bought from is no longer selling his Glocks @ $440, but has been pricing them at $499. I'm quite sure I could easily find a buyer willing to pay $475 PLUS shipping and FFL fees for my used G26.

You also need to think why someone would choose to buy a Glockchester Model 123POC used for $500 in a private party transaction when he could buy the same gun new at a dealer for $400. Some folks either don't want to do a 4473 & NICS check or they couldn't pass one. Sellers know this and price accordingly.

 

[TexasGunbie]

okay just to clarify things a little bit.

I didn't lowball someone and got angry. I do make low offers on private sale and people had often said I lowball. Some may tell me to add another 25 dollars onto the deal and we got a deal.

I started this thread just to point out that there are some people that intentionally mark up prices, and they will bring in the FFL and TAX discussion.

As you read this thread, you will realize everyone have their own point of view when dealing in private sale. Some will simply walk away from unreasonable listing, but some people like me will offer a reasonable price.

100 dollars below a new gun price is not a low ball offer in my opinion. I wrote that if the gun is worth 500 NEW, then offering 400 for a USED one is okay, but that's in my opinion. Also a lot of you said the definition of low ball means that you are too far away from the asking price, disregarding whether the asking price is reasonable or not.

If that is indeed the definition of lowballing, then I humbly admit that I lowball people.

For example, I recently bought a 1911 that has a MSRP of 1000. The seller listed this MSRP and said no low balling. But I offered him 400 because I believe it's the reasonable price. Anyways, after I bought the gun, I looked behind the foam covering of the box and saw a receipt stating that the previous buyer had paid 530 out the door for it.

 

[dawico]

The key to buying and selling is to negotiate. If that falls through, then walk away. The part I don't understand is why either person whines about it. If there is a million of those items, then the buyer has more power. If there is only one, then the seller has more power. The person negotiating with them must understand that that is the way it goes. People must learn to take no for an answer, and leave it be. Why cry about it? Move on if it doesn't go your way. I have a little secret for you, nobody else cares.

 

[TexasGunbie]

You also need to think why someone would choose to buy a Glockchester Model 123POC used for $500 in a private party transaction when he could buy the same gun new at a dealer for $400. Some folks either don't want to do a 4473 & NICS check or they couldn't pass one. Sellers know this and price accordingly.

I sure hope private sellers are not pricing their guns high so to aim to sell to someone that cannot pass a background check. I don't think that is their intention, especially most local private sale are done face to face, why would you want to price your gun high so you can meet up with a criminal?

But I can see some people doing that...

 

[TexasGunbie]

Why cry about it? Move on if it doesn't go your way. I have a little secret for you, nobody else cares.

Quote the part where I am whining about it. I am just writing to make people be aware of the pricing.

There are guides out there on buying cars. They are indeed helpful so you don't pay extra fees that is only there to mark up prices.

That was my intention.

The point of this thread was to start a candid discussion of the private gun market. I am disappointed that you would say I am whining and crying, and truly, nobody cares??????? booo then why you post??

 

[stchman]

If I offer a price to someone and we can't agree, then I move on.

Some people think that their USED guns are worth more than NEW guns.

 

[Russ Jackson]

If the guy gets angry because you lo-balled him so what. Its just business. Retail for a gun is $500 plus tax 6.25 = $531.25. The guy online is selling it for $450 plus shipping $50 and ffl guy takes $50 you lost $19.75 on a gun you didn't actually look at and hope it is new. I say lo-ball the heck out of it and include shipping in the price...JMO...Russ

 

[Olympus]

I understand what the OP is saying. Instead of getting caught up in the tiny details, try to understand his general point. TexasGunbie, I completely get the point you're trying to make.

If a guy is offering a Lorcin or Jennings pistol for $900 and you offer $100 for it, I'm sorry but that is not lowballing. :banghead:

It's similar to a situation you run into if you're trying to get a local shop to price match on something from Bud's Gun Shop or some shop online. Say Bud's sells the same gun for $500 and the local sells it for $550. You go into the local shop and say, I'll buy it for $500 (which is the going rate). They say no. You say Bud's has the same gun for $500. Then almost always the guy behind the counter will say, yeah but you've got to pay shipping and the FFL transfer fee so you'll end up about the same price. My line of reasoning is that if the shipping price is actually what it costs, then Bud's isn't seeing any additional profit from the shipping and sure not from the FFL transfer fee. Whereas the local shop is seeing the difference in price as total profit. If I'm understanding the OP right, this seems like a similar situation.

 

[TexasGunbie]

I understand what the OP is saying. Instead of getting caught up in the tiny details, try to understand his general point. TexasGunbie, I completely get the point you're trying to make.

If a guy is offering a Lorcin or Jennings pistol for $900 and you offer $100 for it, I'm sorry but that is not lowballing.

FINALLY someone understood me!

It's sad though that my several line EXAMPLE, did not explain anything. But your one line Jennings pistol example explained my whole point...

It's similar to a situation you run into if you're trying to get a local shop to price match on something from Bud's Gun Shop or some shop online. Say Bud's sells the same gun for $500 and the local sells it for $550. You go into the local shop and say, I'll buy it for $500 (which is the going rate). They say no. You say Bud's has the same gun for $500. Then almost always the guy behind the counter will say, yeah but you've got to pay shipping and the FFL transfer fee so you'll end up about the same price. My line of reasoning is that if the shipping price is actually what it costs, then Bud's isn't seeing any additional profit from the shipping and sure not from the FFL transfer fee. Whereas the local shop is seeing the difference in price as total profit. If I'm understanding the OP right, this seems like a similar situation.

YES YES YES!! That's what I meant, it's not a saving pass onto the buyer!


I probably should look into my writing skill since most people didn't get my point an perceived me as whining, crying, and angry because I didn't get the gun I wanted...

 

[nelsonal]

Local sellers usually exist to collect rents on a local monopoly of pricing. That monopoly is limited in nature, in some cases (like a bunch of big boxes sharing a parking lot it may be limited to their store) but within some region they are the only seller that matters.

From a pricing standpoint it doesn't matter that Bud's or another seller doesn't retain the shipping cost as profit or the FFL bg check fee, the price to the buyer includes it so the local seller should rationally price their wares at a price that matches or exceeds the shipped cost (because having something today is always better than having it 3 days from now).

That doesn't mean that everyone will buy it, but it does mean that enough will to make the preimium worth holding.

 

[Mags]

Bud's doesn't charge shipping on most gun sales on their website. Also I have an FFL that receives for 15 bucks, screw the overpriced local guys.

 

[Olympus]

...most people didn't get my point an perceived me as whining, crying, and angry because I didn't get the gun I wanted...

Unfortunately, that happens. But look on the bright side...WHO CARES! I'm sure I'm not the only one who understands your point and I'm sure I'm not the only who knows you're not crying or whining. And you know you weren't doing so either. In the big scheme of things, other's people's perceptions of your posts are pretty insignificant. Water off a duck's back friend...

 

[raz-0]

It's real simple.

If you are selling, and you put something other than firm/price is not negotiable or other equivalent language, shut up about the lowballers. You opened yourself to negotiating and that's what you have to live with. If you don't want to negotiate, say so in your ad.

If you are buying, and the seller doesn't want to sell something to you for the price you want, but they have not listed, shut up and don't complain. You went fishing for a deal and one wasn't to be found. Better luck next time.

No distinct moral boundary has been crossed by either side, and the near constant whining about it in various gun forums is tedious.

 

[waterhouse]

And the FFL and shipping is not calculated as a saving for the buyer... it's simply the loss the seller needs to suck up.

All variables have to be taken into account.

Let's say I list a gun locally for $500, and you send me an email with a gunbroker link with a buy it now price of $425. You say you'll pay me $425 for the gun I have offered, since that is the going rate.

I go and check the listing, and see that since the seller doesn't have an FFL he is shipping the gun overnight via Fedex for $60, and the local FFL charges $15 for a transfer.

In other words, I know for a fact that even though the buy it now price is $425, you can't possess the gun for less than my asking price. You can choose to buy the gun from me or not, but without taking shipping and FFL fees into account you don't have an actual number to bargain with.

Sometimes, you may get what you ask for. Sometimes you won't. But to say that the total cost of getting an item into your hand (including shipping and transfer fee) doesn't come into the equation is incorrect.

YES YES YES!! That's what I meant, it's not a saving pass onto the buyer!

What would you call it then?

Gun A costs $400 plus shipping and transfer fees.
Gun B costs $410 but the buyer agrees to pay for shipping and transfer fees.

Are you telling me you are going to buy Gun A because it is "cheaper" in price tag and you don't see any savings in the deal that includes shipping and transfer fees?

Bud's doesn't charge shipping on most gun sales on their website.

They roll the shipping into the price, but they do charge for shipping.

 

[Bubbles]

Someone selling a used gun for more than a new one:
- is selling a transferrable machine gun,
- doesn't want to sell the gun, but is advertising it because his wife doesn't want it in the house, or
- is hoping to sell FTF to someone willing to pay a premium for an off-the-books firearm.

 

[waterhouse]

Someone selling a used gun for more than a new one:
- is selling a transferrable machine gun,
- doesn't want to sell the gun, but is advertising it because his wife doesn't want it in the house, or
- is hoping to sell FTF to someone willing to pay a premium for an off-the-books firearm.

Also could be selling the same make/model number with "older" features that fetch a premium, such as pre-64 Winchesters, no internal lock S&Ws, Brownings made in Belgiium, etc. I've run into this before when someone sends me a gunbroker link to a new Winchester and asks why my price is more that they can buy a new one for.

 

[TexasGunbie]

Hi Waterhouse,

Like you said there are many variables. But I never said it's unreasonable to mark up a gun if it has extra features.

I think my post is confusing because I am actually trying to address the local Houston private sale. And what I meant to say about FFL and Tax gimmick is that there are a lot of people out there that will say you have saved FFL and Tax to justify their mark up in the price. But these same people had bought the gun maybe used off another individual, thus they never had to pay FFL and Tax in the first place, yet they will pretend they have, and mark their gun up to X amount above the proper price, and then go on to say, well I am this much above the online price, but you are not paying FFL and tax, so in the end you are saving money! but they are making money!

While what I have just said is not the same as what Olympus said, I guess we are trying to imply that the FFL and Tax is a way for both dealer and private sellers to justify their markup. I personally believe it's okay for gun shops to do this because they are running a business, but for private sellers to take advantage of this feels somewhat a scam to me, but this is just my opinion.


Yes many of you are pros in this gun market because you guys been in it for so long, but I didn't want first timers to fall for these sales pitch. And such was my desire of writing this thread to begin with.

Much like going to a car dealership and they tell you that our dealership do not charge FEE A and B unlike other dealerships! So even if our price tag is higher, if you buy now, you are not paying for FEE A and B, therefore regardless of price tag, you still come out ahead.

 

[Ben86]

When I sell a gun I always ask more than I'm willing to take for it. That's smart salesmanship. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I don't think I should have to shave off more than 25% from what I paid for it unless something is wrong with it. On the flip side a smart buyer will try to haggle, but not to obscenely, or he won't get anywhere.

I have not sold one online yet, but if I did I would charge an extra fee for shipping. Why should I have to cover it? I would not try to secretly add it on to the price. It would be presented as: the gun is worth X shipping will cost Y, your total cost is X+Y.

 

[millertyme]

I've sold quite a few firearms FTF through internet sales. I've never asked too much as far as I can remember. I had a 44M Vaquero in stainless with a pretty nice polish left on it. I paid about $400 for the pistol in a private sale and I traded it and a leather dropleg holster and belt someone gave me to a guy who collected Ruger single actions in stainless for a .45ACP and a hundred bucks. I felt just fine about it. I still do. Some of you might think I got robbed, but those are the same folks who wouldn't dare sell one for that little, but they wouldn't pay more than $300 for one either. I also sold a stainless P95 in nearly new condition I bought for $359.99 plus tax and took in $350 for it. I posted it for sale for $375, about what you'd get one new in the area at the time with tax but made know that i'd entertain offers. One guy offered me $200 and tried to justify his offer by saying that the 200 rounds I put down the pipe was excessive for what I was asking. That was a low-ball offer. The guy I sold it to was happy to get it for the price. He didn't have to travel halfway across Arizona to find a better deal and he didn't have to pay taxes, shipping, or any other additional costs.

If you can prove to me that the price you offered for a firearm in nearly new condition (especially without inspecting the firearm to see that it actually is in nearly new condition) is more than 10% less than what a new one costs without tax, you're trying to screw me. Don't try to add in the fact that you have to pay shipping and FFL costs because you'll likely have to do that with a new one as well. You can feel free to drive to my locale and meet with me face to face and avoid the shipping and transfer fees. You might even get a little enjoyment out of the drive. But don't expect me to eat the cost of shipping and transfer unless I say so and under which condition I will have already loaded it into the price. Buy local, pay local.

Then you have the guys that when you need money and selling a firearm is the fastest and best way to get it these guys really try to screw you. Those are the real scum who try to take advantage of a person. Every time I've tried to sell a gun these guys come out of the woodwork despite the fact that I've never needed to sell a gun.

 

[millertyme]

100 dollars below a new gun price is not a low ball offer in my opinion. I wrote that if the gun is worth 500 NEW, then offering 400 for a USED one is okay, but that's in my opinion. Also a lot of you said the definition of low ball means that you are too far away from the asking price, disregarding whether the asking price is reasonable or not.

If that is indeed the definition of lowballing, then I humbly admit that I lowball people.

Well, at least you admit it. If I had a POF AR15 and you offered me $100 below my asking price of $1600, I'd probably be ok with that. If you offered me $100 less for my CZ75B with tritium sights and Hogue grips listed @ $500 you would certainly be lowballing me. That's kind of a subjective rule. As a rule of thumb, if I put something up for sale and it has been used I won't accept less than 10% of its new value less tax for a local sale, assuming the firearm is in nearly new condition, as most of the firearms I have sold are. I hit up enough gun shops to know the local prices and many of them had been purchased recently enough for me to remember. I might need a different rule for the older guns. If someone shows up with an online price that doesn't have FFL and shipping costs factored in and its 25% less than local prices less tax they can pound sand.

I don't look to screw anyone over when I buy, either. I do my research and look for what I want, not just something available that I can pick up for a low price. I'm not going to waste anyone's time making offers on something I'm not willing to spend time looking over without any commitment to buy. I've done it plenty of times. I'll continue to do it. Same reason I didn't buy a house five years ago in AZ. I knew the prices were inflated and when the market leveled out I could loose my shorts on it. Be a discerning buyer, not an ill-informed shopper.

In other words, I know for a fact that even though the buy it now price is $425, you can't possess the gun for less than my asking price. You can choose to buy the gun from me or not, but without taking shipping and FFL fees into account you don't have an actual number to bargain with.

Sometimes, you may get what you ask for. Sometimes you won't. But to say that the total cost of getting an item into your hand (including shipping and transfer fee) doesn't come into the equation is incorrect.

That's what I'm getting at.

 

[12131]

If someone's price is unreasonable, I buy from someone else. Simple as that.

Exactly! I just don't get people whining about private gun sales, or any sales.

 

[Aaron2091]

Wow this thread should have stopped 1 1/2 pages ago......it's a private sale!!!!!!.....the seller lists it for what he wants. You offer him what you are willing to start at and negotiate. If you don't want to have to negotiate with people then state that in your ad/listing when you sell something. I negotiate at any store/retailer/private sale I can. If people get bent when you want to negotiate...oh well...move on to the better deal.

 

[duns]

Wow this thread should have stopped 1 1/2 pages ago......it's a private sale!!!!!!.....the seller lists it for what he wants. You offer him what you are willing to start at and negotiate.

I agree! I don't understand why people would be offended at an offer or counteroffer that's way different to what they desire. If they have better offers, they can go for one of the better offers and ignore the "offensive" offers. If an "offensive offer" is the only one they have maybe it's not offensive after all?