Progressive

[hpluseleven]

I've read every thread I could find here and on a few other forums about progressive reloading. I have been loading on an RCBS Rockchucker for a few years. I'll keep the Rockchucker for 7mmRM, .30-06, .30-30, .350 RM, some .223 and load development, but loading pistol ammo on the single stage is killing me. I'd like to load .45 ACP and 9mm with plans to load 40 S&W at some point in the future on a progressive.

Big picture options are:
Dillon - I know people love them but I just can't get over the pricetag for a 650 (especially caliber conversions) and 550 is out because I want 5 stations, not 4.

RCBS Pro 2000 - I really want a casefeeder and as far as I can tell that is not an option unless I custom build my own contraption to make it work.

Lee Loadmaster - I've read about some people who love them, but it seems like at least as many people have problems and "tinkering" is a recurring theme with every LM story I've read. I'm not that mechanically inclined. I'm also not a huge fan of the priming system.

So...the winner is:

Hornady LNL AP. Cabelas has the LNL with case feeder for $670, but buying them separate at Natchez is $380 for the LNL and $260 for the case feeder. I figure I'll follow the $28 bullet feeder instructions in that other recent thread. Then I need a couple of shell plates, an RCBS lockout die and a Hornady EZ bullet feeder die.

What am I missing? What else do I need to buy? What else would you be thinking about/considering if you were looking at your first progressive?

Thanks for ya'lls help. Hopefully this doesn't derail into red vs blue race wars.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'd consider getting the LnL stripped, set it up in .45 and use the feeder money to buy a SDB 9mm.

I hate changing primer feeds more than handling brass and bullets.

 

[joed]

I think you're on track with what you have listed. I'm not that up on the LnL as I'm a Dillon fan, but were I buying I would get the items you have listed.

Biggest item is the lockout die, for the price it's cheap insurance. I won't own a progressive without one.

 

[cfullgraf]

I operate my progressives a little different than the standard. I like to clean my pistol brass between resizing and reloading. Also, the press mounted priming systems and i do not get along. So I prime by hand off the press. My choice. Others operate the priming system just fine.

That said, I like the flexibility of the Hornady L-N-L. I install only the dies I need at the time. For resizing, I just pop in the sizer die and the expander die. I can size 100 cases in lest than 5 minutes. I process all my fired cases shortly after shooting and store them for a future loading session.

For reloading, I leave out the sizer and start with the powder drop dies, powder cop die, seater and crimp die.

This could be done on Dillon 650 or the RCBS Pro 2000 by screwing the dies in and out of the tool head.

I have two Dillon SDBs set up for 9x19 and 45 ACP respectively. Sizing is done on the Hornady so the resizers have been removed from the SDBs.

I like both presses.

The Dillon 650, RCBS Pro 2000 and the Hornady L-N-L are more flexible than the Dillon SDB and each have there advantages and disadvantages. Any of the three would serve you well.

From what I read about the Lee progressive, it is a tinkerer's dream as it needs constant attention to keep it running well. But I do not have first hand experience with the Lee.

 

[BeerSleeper]

Hornady LNL AP. Cabelas has the LNL with case feeder for $670, but buying them separate at Natchez is $380 for the LNL and $260 for the case feeder. I figure I'll follow the $28 bullet feeder instructions in that other recent thread. Then I need a couple of shell plates, an RCBS lockout die and a Hornady EZ bullet feeder die.

What am I missing? What else do I need to buy? What else would you be thinking about/considering if you were looking at your first progressive?

You have the loading dies you already need, right?
You will probably want more LnL bushings. I think it comes with 5, so there's enough for your initial setup, you just need enough bushings for when you change calibers.
You might need a bullet feeding die for each caliber. I don't know, haven't set that up yet.
If you want to bullet feed, and RCBS lockout, you will need a powder thru expander die so you can expand and drop powder in one station. I don't have an LnLAP, so I don't know if it comes with that, either.

The case feed seems like it would be a wonderful accessory, but if you are already planning to do the bullet feed, it becomes less of a big deal. As long as you're feeding one or the other (bullet or case), then your off press hand only has one thing to do. It's much less the big deal than when it has two things to do. If you have to cut something to meet a budget, the case feeder is the first thing I would drop. You can always add it later.

 

[Muddydogs]

I have just done what your are doing. Been loading for years on a Rockchucker and just purchased a LNL. I load .40 and partial 223 right now and will expand to my other pistol calibers as there reloading rotation comes up. For 40 I clean my cases then start them on the press from size deprime to crimp. For 223 I size deprime on the RCBS, clean, trim then start them on the LNL for primer through crimp. I am thinking about getting a RCBS lube die and sizing / depriming on the LNL instead of on the RCBS and maybe in the future adding a Dillon trimmer to the press to really speed up the large batches of 223 but we will see on this. I run my RCBS dies with no problems.

I use the $28.00 bullet feeder die and love it, wish they had one for 223 also. Be aware that the Hornady bullet feeder die comes with a powder though expander (PTX) in the correct caliber. There is a lot of talk on the web about how the PTX is a pain to set up and you need a powderfunnels.com PTX so I ordered one which I have not received. Well with the Hornady quick change powder through expander linkage, which one should come with your press and I think is a new addition, I found that the Hornady PTX is easy to set up and use.

I was going to get the lock out die or powder cop die but after reading on the web about how they take up a station and a visual check is needed any way I opted out which I am glad I did as all my stations are full with the bullet feeder and crimping with a Lee die in a separate step for pistol. With the 223 I run a Lee universal case mouth expander set light in station 2 to help with setting the bullet on the case mouth straighter and keeping it there while the press is moving. I also light crimp 223 in a separate step.

If you are going to be switching calibers a lot I would recommend getting separate powder measure stems to leave set for each charge (a standard and pistol comes with the press), a quick change powder die to leave set for each caliber, an expander linkage for each caliber you are using a PTX with and a few more bushings.

 

[ambidextrous1]

I have a Dillon 650, and yes, it does require a bit of tweaking to keep things running smoothly - similar to maintaining performance in an auto or motorcycle.

I don't see this as a major disadvantage, because the productivity of the well-tuned progressive press is so high. maintaining a good progressive press is another hobby, not a burden. Take a look at the thread where members show off their reloading setups: You'll see a lot of ingenuity and pride in those activities.

 

[Red Six Bravo]

I too have been considering the LNL however, after trying to piece all the extra parts together I found the cost comparison to the Dillon 650 minimal. Both machines have there pluses and minus and this can be dependent on your own preferences. For me I found the Dillon 650 to be more suited to my preferences. The investment in a quality machine over a ten to twenty year period and the customer support for repair at that time point is were the quality stands out.

 

[Waldog]

If your going to buy Dillon, do it quickly. Just received Dillon's January Catelog and everything is going up. Some significantly.

 

[Walkalong]

I operate my progressives a little different than the standard. I like to clean my pistol brass between resizing and reloading. Also, the press mounted priming systems and i do not get along. So I prime by hand off the press. My choice. Others operate the priming system just fine.

That said, I like the flexibility of the Hornady L-N-L. I install only the dies I need at the time. For resizing, I just pop in the sizer die and the expander die. I can size 100 cases in lest than 5 minutes. I process all my fired cases shortly after shooting and store them for a future loading session.

For reloading, I leave out the sizer and start with the powder drop dies, powder cop die, seater and crimp die.

Pretty much how I do it. Loading is so smooth and quick without the sizing and priming in the mix.

Tumble, size/decap/tumble if lubed. Hand prime and store. Load.

I loaded 150 .45 Colt night before last. Got out the primed and ready brass and loaded them up in no time. It's very smooth, and much faster, with no sizing or priming going on, so you can really get a good feel of the other things going on.

I use regular expanders for pistol in station two. Drop powder in three. I do not use any powder through expanders.

 

[joed]

I too have been considering the LNL however, after trying to piece all the extra parts together I found the cost comparison to the Dillon 650 minimal. Both machines have there pluses and minus and this can be dependent on your own preferences. For me I found the Dillon 650 to be more suited to my preferences.

I too have been wondering for some time about a true cost comparison between Dillon and Hornady. Everyone buying a LnL states it's cheaper but I can't see it being much cheaper.

Just one time I'd like run an actual cost comparison on the 2 presses.

 

[john16443]

Waiting for the UPS driver to deliver my LNL from Cabella's today. Dillon was out of the question for me from a cost and conversion standpoint, the Loadmaster was an almost purchase (use a Lee turret now), but decided no. I'll be using my Lee and Lyman dies in the LNL, and plan on fitting my own bullet feeder using the Lee components from the LM for $30. I'll probably set up my 9mm dies with the Lee Pro auto disk dispenser, the 45 with the Hornady dispenser from the kit.

 

[cfullgraf]

I too have been wondering for some time about a true cost comparison between Dillon and Hornady. Everyone buying a LnL states it's cheaper but I can't see it being much cheaper.

Just one time I'd like run an actual cost comparison on the 2 presses.

When I was looking at progressive presses a couple years ago, the Hornady was less expensive than the Dillon 650 similarly equipped without a bullet or case feeder.

Cost for everything I needed was one of the criteria I used for selecting which progressive.

I did spend more on the Hornady that i originally planned because a couple of my 1980 vintage die sets were not long enough to operate correctly on the Hornady. But, I suspect I would have had similar issues with the Dillon.

I moved 10 different cartridges from single stage loading to the progressive when I bought the progressive.

I guess it depends on what extra goodies you buy and not buy that makes the difference on the cost of the presses.

 

[Muddydogs]

Here is a link to another thread that discusses the Dillon / LNL deal. I looked up a lot of prices and I can tell ya that right out of the gate the LNL is $150.00 cheaper then the Dillon plus the LNL gose on sale for even cheaper. Caliber conversions on the LNL are also a little cheaper but not a lot. Parts are also easer to get for the LNL.

I am not trying to make this a war as I don't care what anyone uses I am just posting the facts on price. Both companys have great costumer service and both have had there minor problems. Do a google search and the red vs blue is out there for you to make your own decision. For me I am happy with the LNL.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/356870_Hornady_LNL_vs__Dillon_650.html

 

[hpluseleven]

Just one time I'd like run an actual cost comparison on the 2 presses.

I have some time this afternoon - I've been kind of keeping a running tally in my head as I've looked at these, but I'll sit down and try to do a better side-by-side comparison with a little more rigor. I'll post what I find out.

@Cfullgraf and walkalong - I think I may try out using the press the way you do. I like to hand prime, and then I'd end up with an extra station and not need the PTX...actually, that sounds like a really good idea for starting with a progressive - one or two fewer things to keep track of when it comes time to drop powder and seat bullets.

Thanks for ya'lls help.

 

[thorn-]

Do buy another 5pack of die bushings. Being able to store your dies with the bushings installed makes die changeovers a dream.

Brian Enos lists the 650 for 556.95, while Grafs lists the LNL-AP for $399.99. I don't see how the Dillon is about the same price, unless I do math differently than other people...

The Dillon casefeeder is $25 cheaper, so maybe that factors in? But if you're going to hand-feed your brass for awhile, you'll have more of initial savings I suppose.

At one point, Hornady offered 500 free bullets with the purchase of a press. They may still do that. It's a nice value, especially as they are better bullets than the average lead or plated bullet.

They are both good presses, but I should repeat - that means BOTH are good presses.

If you already have a good set of assorted wrenches, dont waste money on a wrench with a press company's name on it.

I see no need to purchase a 2nd press for a large pistol dedicated press, as doing a large/small primer swap on the LNL-AP probably takes all of 2 mins.

If you buy a Hornady seating die, get the micrometer stem insert. It really speeds of the process of changing your OAL by hundredths of a hair. I don't have micrometer (or multiple) inserts for powder - i just use the standard pistol insert, and it works fine for me.

A roller handle isn't required, but after a few months i bought one. For $40, it was a nice addition. I got the one from Ultimate Reloader.

Dillon's StrongMount is nice if you need one, but I built one with some wood for about $30 or so. I like it a bit better, as it's more like a short shelf with room for tools, bullets, etc.

thorn

 

[hpluseleven]

Cost Comparison

Maybe this info will help someone else as well as satisfy some curiousity. What particular setup you're looking for will make a difference and could make one press more attractive than another. I haven't used either Hornady or Dillon presses but I hear great things about both of them. Without further ado...

I attempted to price out everything I would need to load .45ACP, 9mm and .223 on either the Dillon 650 or the Hornady LNL AP. Dillon prices are either from Dillon direct or through BrianEnos.com because the few other places I found that sell them had the same (or higher prices). Hornady prices came from Natchez.

For the Dillon 650:
Press is $557
Case Feeder $217
Case Feeder plates (includes one with the case feeder) - $76 for 2 additional
Caliber Conversion (comes set up for 1 caliber) - $154 for 2 more
Shellplates are included in the caliber conversion, as are case feeder adapters
Toolhead/Powder Die (this is cheaper than the Deluxe quick change conversion kit) - $76 for 2
I'm not counting the cost of a primer quick change conversion because I think I'd rather hand prime than spend the additional $75
Strongmount - $50
Roller Handle - $40 (I don't have to have either of these, but everyone thinks they are great to have.
The intent of having different toolheads is to be able to leave it set up, so I probably should include the cost of buying 3 different bullet feed dies ($25 a piece if I went with the Hornady feed dies which are caliber specific and $5 less than the universal RCBS feed die) or 3 lockout dies ($53 a piece), but I'm only accounting for one of each of those dies.

Total for the Dillon 650, setup the way I want: $1247 and just over $1400 if I buy enough bullet feed dies and lockout dies to leave them setup on each toolhead.

For the LNL AP:
Press - $380
Case Feeder - $260
Case Feeder Plates - $90 (3@$30/ea - the case feeder itself doesn't come with a plate, unlike the Dillon)
Shellplates - $93 (3@$31/ea)
RCBS Universal bullet feeder - $29
RCBS lockout die - $53
10 extra bushings - $40

Hornady LNL AP total, setup the way I want: $945

For $300, I'll drink red kool-aid all day. I did a bunch of reading on Brianenos.com; however, I am not an expert on Dillon presses - if I double counted something please let me know. I'm trying to get an accurate estimate of costs, not cook the numbers to show what I want them to.

Other considerations:
My wife shoots .380, if I ever get her shooting enough to want to reload that on the progressive, with the LNL all I need is a new shellplate ($30), some more bushings ($4 a piece) and dies. For the 650, I would need a caliber conversion ($76) and another toolhead ($76) as well as dies.

Not really considerations, but still cool: Hornady gives you some bullets if you buy their press and they came out with that new Zombie Ammo which I find hysterical.

 

[cfullgraf]

@Cfullgraf and walkalong - I think I may try out using the press the way you do. I like to hand prime, and then I'd end up with an extra station and not need the PTX...actually, that sounds like a really good idea for starting with a progressive - one or two fewer things to keep track of when it comes time to drop powder and seat bullets.

hpluseleven,

I still use the expander drop tubes for my hand gun cases, but I turn down the outside diameter so that they fit into the mouth of the case without doing additional mouth expanding.

The case mouth pushes up on the step of the drop tube. I do not use the gizmo that attaches to the outside of the powder measure linkage to control movement of the measure and mouth expansion. My L-N-L predates that modification.

The other drop tubes work fine, I just find the expander style drop tubes minimize powder spillage.

I have had difficulty getting the powder measure on the L-N-L to charge 380 ACP. Primarily a set-up thing. The case is so short. The last time I loaded 380 ACP, I charged the cases off line then used the L-N-L to seat the bullet and taper crimp.

I have not given up yet, but my reloading of 380 ACP is not very frequent so it is a learning experience at each session.

 

[danbowkley]

I do love my LnL-AP, though I have had some kinks with the large priming system. Small works awesome, I find myself checking a bunch of rounds because it didn't feel like it was hard enough, and hey they're perfectly seated. I suspect a burr or something on the end of the large primer shuttle, gotta investigate next time I'm actually at home. I'm sure it's something pretty stupid like a burr or a rough spot that needs filing down.

I second the above motion to stock up on LnL bushings, as they allow you to set your dies once and leave 'em. Handy little buggers to have around. There are issues with dies that have shorter bodies, such as Lee and older RCBS dies, in that when they're adjusted far enough down to work right, there isn't enough thread left above the bushing to get the lockring to actually lock. I do have a bunch of Lee dies and do use them on the LnL, so it can be done, it's just a bit of a tricksy hobbit.

Get a few spare retainer springs as well, they're cheap insurance and the press is down for the count until it's replaced if you manage to kill it. Also I recommend extra primer pickup tubes, and the deluxe die wrench is really handy.

Finally, be careful when loosening the bolt on the top of the shellplate when you switch calibers. Hold the shellplate with your hand and prevent it moving while you loosen that bolt, lest you bend the ratchet star doodad that the pawls push on to rotate the shellplate. Found that one out the hard way. The shellplate really doesn't need to be all that tight, though checking it every couple hundred rounds is probably a good idea.

Finally, I've found that one of the binder clips used to hold together massive stacks of paper works awesome to clamp off the spent primer tube. The LnL doesn't come with a plug or anything, so if you can't stick the end into a trash can or something this is the next best thing. Rubberbanding a plastic baggie over the end works too.

It's an awesome machine, once you get it dialed in I'm sure you'll love it.

 

[Striker Fired]

I size and clean seperate,then hand prime 500 at a time while watching tv.then when I load I just expand/powder drop,my own powder cops,seat,then crimp.I don't like priming on either press,it works better for me.

 

[Walkalong]

I made my own powder drop bushings for my Projector style powder drop. The 9MM & up bushing also works for .35 & over rifle. No spillage more than a flake or kernel or two on occasion. Case length is not critical. I can do .32 ACP to .458 Win Mag at 2.5". I don't have anything taller.


..........-.32 Cal pistol...................9MM & up pistol............- .30 & .35 Cal rifle.............- .22 Cal Rifle

 

[cfullgraf]

Walkalong, nice drop tubes. Better features than the one I made for 30 Carbine. I basically copied Hornady's rifle drop tube but made it longer.

 

[Walkalong]

I tried that first, but then made the two pistol bushings where it goes down in the case for the .32, and the tapered part of the plug on the 9MM & up bushing sits inside the case for 9MM, and drops in for .40 & .45. It virtually eliminates powder spillage. The .30 & .35 Bushing works like the Hornady one, and can spill a kernel or two here and there if it doesn't line up just right, but it almost always does.

Here is the 9MM and up bushing waiting for a case. It slides up and down in the black piece that joins the measure to the press. That gives it the flexibility to do short and long cases. It also shows my little Fenix flashlight shining down in the cases.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Hpluseleven,

For whatever they are worth, I offer the following OPINIONS based on my experience using my Hornady L&L since 1997, and my nearly forty years experience loading on single stage presses prior to the L&L. I still use several single stage presses in addition to my L&L progressive.

I bought my L&L in 1997 when they first came on the market. In the 14 years since then, the only part I have replaced is the shell plate case retainer spring - absolutely nothing else. My press is the same today as it was when I bought it - no new upgrades (neither EZ-Ject nor primer feed) to any part of it. My L&L primer feeder system has worked reliably from the time I first learned to use the press.

I am able to reload all pistol and rifle calibers that I reload with my single stage presses. The biggest rifle cases I reload are the 30-06 and the 45-70, but I certainly could load longer ones if needed.

I do not use a case feeder nor a bullet feeder. I never liked the noise they make nor the cost of them. I am perfectly happy loading cases and bullets in the L&L by hand, and I think the increase in the speed of loading is marginal to my needs.

I also do not use a powder checker (powder cop); I eyeball the powder level in every case, and have no need for it. Also found no need for a powder through an expander die for similar reasons. I use either ball or flake powder for all loads on my L&L. These powders meter very accurately through my Hornady powder dispenser.

No separate priming for me on the L&L. If I load it on the L&L, I do all the operations on the L&L. Like I said earlier, my priming system works quite well, and I cannot see any need for me to prime separately. When doing special loads on a single stage press, I do use a Lee hand primer.

Buying a second L&L just to avoid changing primer sizes or dies? Not for me; changing primer sizes takes me five minutes or so, and I really do not bother using the L&L quick die change feature. To me, the whole Hornady L&L quick change thing was implemented just to compete with Dillon's quick change system. I never saw a need for either system, but I am not suggesting that all folks should think the same way as I. Changing dies when changing calibers, whether it be on my L&L or on my single stage presses, simply is just not a problem for me. I have been changing dies in presses since the late 1950s, and doing it on a progressive is no difference to me.

Again, I point out these are my opinions, and I realize that some folks will choose to do things differently than I. However, since you are just starting with your L&L press, I would suggest that you might forget a case loader and bullet loader at least for a few months until you get some first hand experience with it. If you find you really want one or both of those features, then go for it. If you find you are satisfied without those features, you will have at least $400 in your pocket that you can use elsewhere. The same is true for the powder lockout die.

I am glad to see you have experience loading on a single stage press. I think starting off with a progressive press is a bad idea, but that again is an opinion. I hope you do not take my statements as being derogatory toward other folk's opinions. They are just my opinions based on my experience. I wish you well with your new L&L. I obviously think it is a very good machine.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[David Wile]

Hey Walk,

You put a hole in your press to put a flashlight in? I really ought to get some nerve from you.

You have probably seen me say for many years that I would like to find a way to lock the L&L bushings in place so I can just screw the dies in and out when I change calibers. The one bushing I would let alone would be the one for the powder measure so I can take it out and put it in quickly when making adjustments.

Several years ago one person (perhaps it was you?) suggested drilling and tapping a hole from the top at an angle into each station so a setscrew could be screwed into the bushing and hold it fast. That would allow me to back the set screw out of one or more stations if I wanted to re-enable the L&L bushing feature for some reason.

I thought this was a good idea, but I just could not bring myself to drill even little holes in my prized press. I drilled extra holes in my original RockChucker long ago to hold it more securely to my bench, but I simply could not do it to my L&L.

How about giving me a pep talk about drilling holes in my L&L will not really hurt? I look at the hole you made, and it makes me feel like a sissy. Heck, if some old Alabama Bubba can do it, why can't I?

It was really good to see what you have done. Congratulations, Walk.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile