Proposed 'ghost gun' rule could reshape battle against homemade guns: Experts

[kwguy]

How much of the proposed regulation did you read?
You missed this:

Yeah, I didn’t actually read it, because I figured it was more of the same non-logical wordplay tripe that the antis always come up with, and that we always try to parse, “picking the fly poop out of mouse poop so to speak”, in a constantly losing game as they just further erode our rights.

It was an attempt at sarcasm. I figured it would have been pointed out that it was a nonsense term somewhere in there, just like Assault Weapon, and realize that even if it is pointed out that the term isn’t real, it really doesn’t matter, does it?

An unfinished piece of aluminum and a pop tart can both identify as a gun. I guess I can take my sportbike and identify as an internal combustion driven champion bicyclist. We can just call anything we want whatever we want now.

Or, just allow them to do it as well.

 

[12Bravo20]

That's NOT what that paragraph is discussing.

The ATF does indeed want to serialize AR uppers and striker fired pistols slides. But I won't bother arguing with you over this. It is in black and white in the proposed rule changes.

One of the reasons that the ATF wants to serialize striker fired slide is because you can fire off 1 round with the slide off the frame. No it isn't safe, but it can be done. And for that reason the ATF is trying to say it is a firearm and needs serialized. And none f us thinks that the ATF has ever used logic and common sense either.

 

[N555]

Ghostgunner already has the 0% receiver. It turns a block of solid aluminum or potentially anything, steel, bronze, plastic, carbon fiber, granite, hard cheese or anything that can be machined into a lower.

 

[jmorris]

What does this mean? They recovered “approximately” to the nearest even number, out of thousands of “things” that were suspected of being guns from places that a crime could have potentially happened, according to a department that has lost more than a little credibility in recent history…

 

[Riomouse911]

Is there really a trend that this is happening? I've heard otherwise from Cam Edwards but would like to know if he's wrong...

In our county, absolutely. It appears that home made lower Glock style pistols are fast becoming the most common guns found related to crimes, they’re surpassing good old fashioned stolen guns and factory guns with wiped out serial numbers by far.

They've become so common in felon-with-firearm and similar cases that I’ve given three, 4-hour training blocks for DDAs on identifying home made glock style guns in the past 9 months and I have another request for one more in the next month or so. I also just completed a 4-page, 25 photo expert opinion report on a poorly self-machined 80% lower possessed by a thrice-convicted violent felon who was parole-searched because his PO learned he was slinging weed. (It looked like a hand held power drill and a dull 1/4” bit was used to hog out the fire control cavity and other dull bits did the pin/safety lever holes. It was scary-bad work but potentially deadly nonetheless.)

I do not have the actual numbers, but I am seriously tempted to ask our SO how many home made Glock style pistols they seize and destroy because of criminal activity every year. I will bet its easily climbing by 2x-4x every year.

Again; its not Joe American who builds himself an 80% lower firearm who is the problem. Its the criminal misuse of these things and the hoohah surrounding them that will get them nixed.

Stay safe.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The media and politicians mix up firearms home built from scratch, home built from 80% finished receiver, untraceable due to no serial number, untraceable due to lack of records, to create the phantom "ghost gun" boogeygun.

Back in the 1980s underground groups made guns for radical groups, mostly right wing. The "Company" out of Lexington KY brought in to the US cocaine and underground manufactured MAC10s from South America.

Not all untraceable weapons "Ghost Guns" are domestic homebuilts.

 

[AlexanderA]

If we equate "ghost guns" with untraceable guns, then the bulk of the "ghost gun" problem is guns with serial numbers. They are untraceable because they changed hands too many times, the initial sale was more than 20 years ago (and therefore the selling FFL has destroyed the records), or the selling FFL has gone out of business (and the records are in ATF's cavernous "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse). Home-built guns are a convenient scapegoat.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-When they start regularly prosecuting convicted criminals that are found to be in possession of a firearm then I might begin to be concerned about "ghost" guns.
But as long as it is primarily a means of criminalizing the law-abiding gun owners then I'm not interested.

 

[dogtown tom]

The ATF does indeed want to serialize AR uppers and striker fired pistols slides. But I won't bother arguing with you over this. It is in black and white in the proposed rule changes.

Then point it out.
If this new proposed regulation is going to require the serialization of AR uppers and striker fired pistol slides.......it must be in print.

 

[dogtown tom]

View attachment 1067883

What does this mean? They recovered “approximately” to the nearest even number, out of thousands of “things” that were suspected of being guns from places that a crime could have potentially happened, according to a department that has lost more than a little credibility in recent history…

It means the "article" quoted in the OP misstated facts.
The actual statistics paint a wholy and completely different picture.
Because the proposed regulation https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...me-or-receiver-and-identification-of-firearms has this tidbit:

From January 1, 2016, through March 4, 2021, ATF could only complete traces of suspected PMFs recovered by law enforcement to an individual purchaser in approximately 151 out of 23,946 attempts, generally by tracing a serial number engraved on a handgun slide, barrel, or other firearm part not currently defined as a frame or receiver, but recorded by licensees in the absence of other markings.

The ABC News writer confused firearm traces with guns recovered at crime scenes. Not all firearm traces are from guns at crime scenes.
Lies, damn lies, statistics.

 

[12Bravo20]

Then point it out.
If this new proposed regulation is going to require the serialization of AR uppers and striker fired pistol slides.......it must be in print.

https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2021-10058/p-91

That is where they talk about changing the classification of certain pistols and rifles ie: AR's and striker fired pistol slides.

And per the Gun Control Act of 1968, anything the ATF considers a frame or receiver must be serialized. So YES if the definitions of what is a frame r receiver is changed to include AR upper receivers and striker fired pistols, then they will have to be serialized just like any other frame or receiver.

 

[dogtown tom]

I'm trying to figure out how tracing where a gun came from solves a crime? Or stops crime?

I've asked that very question to my IOI. Her response was as vague as any you would get.
She did not disagree with my comment that it only serves to identify FFL's who have a lot of short "time to crime" guns or who transfers firearms used in crimes. In effect the only reason to trace a firearm is to identify those dealers and put them under a microscope as often as possible.

Serial numbers are needed only to make universal background checks (UBC) work.

Nonsense.
An FBI NICS background check has nothing to do with a serial number and never has. All the FBI is told is whether the firearm is a handgun, long gun or other firearm. No serial#, not even the manufacturer or model.

In the case of a stolen or lost firearm you may appreciate the fact it has a serial number. Not to mention the serial number aids the manufacturer in warranty, repair or product recalls. Serial numbers are not bad. What government uses them for is.

Government wants to know who owns what and who transfers what.

Sure they do. But the recordkeeping requirements for the firearm transfer are completely separate form the requirements of a background check.

It's the only way UBC can be enforced.

Yet untold thousands of interstate firearm transfers occur every year without regard to federal laws that have been in place for more than half a decade.
If UBC were to become federal law we would see another law that doesn't get enforced.

The alleged purpose of UBC is to prevent transfer of a firearm to a prohibited person but the real purposes are to: 1) frustrate the ability of lawful gun owners to transfer their personal property to others without government approval, and 2) collect information about who owns what to be able to enforce future gun bans.

Yup.

Requirements for serial numbers on firearms predates the idea of a background check by decades. It wasn't until the Gun Control Act of 1968 that serial numbers were required on all firearms. Up to that point it was only required for handguns. Background checks were not required in federal law until the Brady Law took effect in 1994.

 

[dogtown tom]

https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2021-10058/p-91

That is where they talk about changing the classification of certain pistols and rifles ie: AR's and striker fired pistol slides.

Again, that doesn't say jack squat about ATF requiring AR uppers and striker fired pistol slides to be serialized. It gives ATF the authority to determine in the future what parts of certain firearms will be designated as the firearm frame or receiver...and then would be required to be marked.
This proposed regulation is to plug the holes in current ATF definitions. They are expanding what MAY be considered a firearm frame or receiver and want the new regulation to allow for future technological advancements.
And what you didn't highlight is pretty darn important:

Finally, the definition would make clear to persons who may acquire or possess a part now defined as a “frame or receiver” that is identified with a serial number that they must presume, absent an official determination by ATF or other reliable evidence to the contrary, that the part is a firearm “frame or receiver” without further guidance

And per the Gun Control Act of 1968, anything the ATF considers a frame or receiver must be serialized. So YES if the definitions of what is a frame r receiver is changed to include AR upper receivers and striker fired pistols, then they will have to be serialized just like any other frame or receiver.

But ONLY if ATF says "THAT'S THE PART WE CONSIDER THE FIREARM FRAME OR RECEIVER"...........and in that little bit you conveniently ignored above.......AR lowers already have a serial number as does every existing striker fired pistol frame.

 

[12Bravo20]

And you @dogtown tom are also wanting to read into the proposed changes yourself. And YES if they do decide to change the definition of an AR upper and striker fired slides to being "frames or receivers" then they will have to be serialized. And if you reread the entire proposed changes, the ATF does indeed talk about changing the definition of a frame or receiver to include AR uppers and striker fired slides. Both hold the components necessary to fire a round per the ATF's definitions of what a firearm is.

I am done arguing with you so don't bother quoting anymore of my posts in this thread. You seem to have your own opinion and everyone else opinions are wrong. Have a nice day.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-And gun serial number tracing is NOT related directly to crime stats.

For example, I picked up a Norinco Model 213 parts kit on EBay some years ago.

A few months later a couple of agents from the FBI Violent Crimes unit showed up at my workplace and asked me for that parts kit.
It seems that an importer in Port Angeles. Washington had a pallet or two of Model 213s that had been blocked from distribution by some federal regulation and used one of these pistols to shoot someone, then broke up all of the guns into parts kits and sold them.

These agents had to track down all of these parts kits, have them assembled, have them fired for a ballistics comparison, then return the parts kits that didn't match to their legal owners.

I got my parts kit back, along with an official letter from the FBI, a few months later. I kept it with the mailer envelope and the agent's business card, just as something to put on display.

Anyway, the agents had to trace ALL of the guns of that shipment.

Only ONE crime was involved... .

 

[Officers'Wife]

We do?
What on earth would be the reason any "major AR -15 manufacturer" would think any regulation would "stifle" the competition?
Good grief. If you have a conspiracy theory make it better than this.

I have already admitted to my cynicism, I will not apologize twice. That said, the biography of a Mr Dodd contained a quote from him that the “Ominibus crime bill of 1968 was written to protect the US industry from cheap overseas imports as well as to wrest certain authority from the Department of Agricultural. History tends to repeat itself.

 

[dogtown tom]

I have already admitted to my cynicism, I will not apologize twice. That said, the biography of a Mr Dodd contained a quote from him that the “Ominibus crime bill of 1968 was written to protect the US industry from cheap overseas imports as well as to wrest certain authority from the Department of Agricultural. History tends to repeat itself.

No need to apologize because cynicism is the last thing I would accuse you of.
The Omnibus Crime Control Act of 1968 had nothing to do with the importation of firearms or protecting the US firearms industry. Those issues were regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Redacted by OW

 

[Basura Blanca]

You gotta have a lot of experience and time to be able to make a real "Ghost Gun" in one hour. I cannot see a gangbanger expending the money and time to become proficient at this endeavor.

He will go up to the corner and peel off 10 one hundred dollar bills, buy one and maybe scrape off the serial numbers if they are still there.

In this case, the end-user isn't necessarily the producer. In fact, it's more than likely they aren't so there isn't really a question of know-how and willingness in the equation. It's more than plausible that, just like with any other product, there's a concentrated supply side behind the distribution. This is also not coincidentally the very claim of my local LE and local government leadership, which was cited as the impetus for our own local "ghost gun" ordinances.

I don't find those claims totally dubious because they make sense from the perspective of criminals intent on selling guns "off book" to other criminals. It's much easier and safer to make something than it is to steal the finished product, or worse, jump through the legal hoops to buy one only to resell it illegally. So rather than denying that this trend exists, I think a better approach as gun owners is to question how pronounced it is instead. If the bulk of crime guns were all homemade, then it would be a problem. I'm saying it's probably not the case though.

As for removing an existing serial number, what reason would someone intent on using a gun in a crime bother? It certainly happens, but I don't believe that the media is conflating factory-made guns with their markings removed, with homemade ones which never had them to begin with.

 

[herrwalther]

I am seeing a lot more busts of illegal firearms manufacturers. Headlines that state so and so was making guns and selling them. Currently, there is no law against buying a firearm kit and building it for personal use. It is when they start getting sold at a profit and/or to felons. Laws to lump the law abiding in with the illegal manufactures is just another chip off the block of gun rights.

 

[AlexanderA]

I am seeing a lot more busts of illegal firearms manufacturers. Headlines that state so and so was making guns and selling them. Currently, there is no law against buying a firearm kit and building it for personal use. It is when they start getting sold at a profit and/or to felons. Laws to lump the law abiding in with the illegal manufactures is just another chip off the block of gun rights.

The black market in guns is going to get a lot worse. The Achilles' Heel of gun control is that it's unenforceable. Too much demand (for off-the-record guns) and, now, too much supply.

Ironically, every attempt to crack down on guns just increases the desire to own them. The best gun salesmen are the gun-banners.

 

[kwguy]

If we were going to ban things based upon their use in crimes, then everything would be banned. If we were to do in accordance with the percentage of use, guns would not be first.

This nonsense is only about gun control and chipping away at the right to have firearms, couched, as always, in “reducing crime”, or “safety”, or whatever.

 

[gifbohane]

I don't find those claims totally dubious because they make sense from the perspective of criminals intent on selling guns "off book" to other criminals. It's much easier and safer to make something than it is to steal the finished product, or worse, jump through the legal hoops to buy one only to resell it illegally. So rather than denying that this trend exists, I think a better approach as gun owners is to question how pronounced it is instead. If the bulk of crime guns were all homemade, then it would be a problem. I'm saying it's probably not the case though.

.

I respect your opinion.

If one were inclined to get into the "Ghost Gun" business, it would be tough to make a living.

You would have to buy lowers in bulk, raising eyebrows at the supplier level and leaving a massive paper trail there for the Gendarmes to view.

The components would cost you north of $600. To sell for $ 1000?

Most importantly you would have to enter a mighty bad neighborhood to ply your trade and deal with folks that I would prefer to avoid.

At one hour to create one during an 8 hour day? Not a lot of reward for the risk.

In reality the only guy the Government hacks would really hurt is Joe Six Pack in his basement or garage trying to keep himself busy after 40 years working in a factory.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Basura Blanca]

.

I respect your opinion.

If one were inclined to get into the "Ghost Gun" business, it would be tough to make a living.

To be clear, this isn't just my opinion.

Locally, our city leaders solicited local LE to write a report on "ghost guns" in the lead up to a local ordinance, and part of their findings (their claim) was that: The consensus among investigators in the Department’s Special Operations Unit (SOU), which focuses on investigating violent crimes, is that 90% of the ghost guns recovered by SDPD are manufactured/assembled by a small group of people that sell these firearms through various social media platforms. The ghost guns are then used in shootings throughout our City.

----

The San Diego Police Department has executed several search warrants during the last year related to the manufacture and sale of these personally manufactured firearms. One such search warrant was executed in September 2020. San Diego Police detectives, in collaboration with ATF and DEA, obtained information that a suspect, and his brother, were manufacturing and selling handguns and (AR) style rifles. Over the course of the investigation, undercover agents purchased eight firearms without a background check or lawful transfer being made. The Department has reason to believe these brothers sold dozens, if not hundreds, of firearms before the execution of the search warrant.

 

[DoubleMag]

Sounds like Cali has a problem. Most likely several other LOCAL area problems. usually with revolving door policies, career criminals ar, er, excuse, disatvantaged persons, go in & out faster then a HunkaBurger. Oops, didn't Cali already pass a law about it. Wasn't that touted at the time as ''the fix of all fixes.' Seems it always is. Then, surprise, a NEW law is absolutely needed.

Not my problem, here. No need for a national law. Well, except for CONTROL. Gun Control is more about control then the gun.

Speaking of the HunkaBurger quik-stop & shop justice, why not give the disadvantaged a sack lunch. Perhaps just a little more kindness, and jonny gangbanger will convert to model citizen Bob.