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Question on legal backlash in self defense situations

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One of the big things you guys always emphasize in many "is this an acceptable self defense weapon" threads is the actual legal backlash for carrying it, I just thought we could condense a whole bunch of those into one reference thread.

Plus I was curious.

I keep a crowbar under my bed at home, how much legal trouble would a be in for bludgeoning a burglar with it?

To be as PC as possible, I just keep a big monkey wrench hung next to my loft at school, doubt I would ever have to use it, but how much trouble would that get me in? (both normally and being in campus housing)

And third, I keep a jack handle next to the seat in my car, would the fact that I do keep it next to my seat and not in the trunk give me legal trouble?


Other than that, baseball bats, large/exotic knives, machetes, swords, trench spikes, specifically designed canes, crazy bendy African walking sticks, whatever you guys know, lets hear the legal issues. I know most of us would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six, but if walking away clean is an option...
 
I keep a crowbar under my bed at home, how much legal trouble would a be in for bludgeoning a burglar with it?

Way too many variables on this one alone - if the BG has priors for burglary you might be fine. If he's a 15 yr old who's parents claim climbed into the wrong house you could have a big fight on your hands. If you chase 'em and club 'em outside the house - again probably big trouble.

Of course your biggest problem is that you hit someone (or try to) with the crowbar and they shoot you. Now that's a problem! :)
 
I think much of it all depends of the object is fitting to the suroundings and activity.

A jack handle in the car?, well you had a flat the other day, haven't put it back yet. Crowbar in the house?, you had a stuck window in the bedroom.

Living in a state that does not permit a CCW, and is a bit draconian, I've learned over time that if you make it look fairly normal, with a reasonable explanation, it will be okay. Like the theroy if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

An example;

A few years back the better half and I went for a walk in a local state park. Of course our Pearl The Wonder Corgi was with us, on her leash. There is a leash law here, and also park regulations. We had a nice hike in the woods, and on getting back to the parking lot where our car was, our corgi was attacked by a pit bull.

The pit bull was off leash, not under any control, and went for Pearl like a express train. The owner, a big shaved head gotee tatoo'e guy, was yelling at me because I had taken up a stance between pearl and the approaching pit bull. I tried to just fend him off, but it was a no go, and he grabbed our corgi by the base of the neck by the shoulder. I'll admit the adreniline was flowing, pearl yelping, and I had this stout hornbeam hikiing staff I had made a few years before. I just raised it over head, and came down with the best imitation of railroad spike driving I coulod do. Conected with the pit right on tip of his head and he went down and out like a light. The big guy was running at me full tilt yelling he was gonna tear my head off for hitting is dog, he's gonna kill my grey bearded old a--, and so on.

Like I said, big guy. Maybe 6 foot something to my skinny 5'9". To be frank, he scared the heck out of me, so when he got to range, I swung the hornbeam with all my might. He puts up an arm, and it gets broke, there's a hastle and he gets some damage to his ribs and collar bone. At the moment, nobody realizes the pit bull is dead.

Police come, both park police and country, reports taken, witnesses interviewed, shaved head guy gets charged with having a dog off leash, and third degree mistermeanor assault. Cops didn't even ask why I had a hornbeam staff, as it was a hiking trail area. The tool was fitting for the surroundings and activity.

The guy tries to sue me for killing his dog, judge tells his lawyer not to clutter up his court again with such nonsense of he'll be in contemp. Throws out case. But not before he orders shaved head to pay for the emergency vet bill s for Pearls stiches.

So in short, I got away with beating down a young guy who looked like a gangbanger, I killed his dog, and I walk scott free.

Its all in tool and location. Looking respectable didn't hurt either. Cops do steriotype, its part of the job if they admit it or not.
 
I keep a spetznaz shovel behind the seat of my pickup. Useful for a variety of purposes, like digging, cutting, and chopping. All edges sharpened of course, because it's better for chopping, cutting, and makes it easier to dig with. It is of course, a tool and not a weapon.:rolleyes:

Well, IT'S NOT!!!!!!

Really!!:D
 
When I'm out an about, I carry pepper spray in addition to my firearm for just such instances. The pepper spray is for bad puppies and unarmed people who I might feel threatened by. The firearm is for armed attackers.

If past experience is any indication, I'm much more likely to use the pepper spray than my firearm. Especially given the number of loose pit bulls and aggressive homeless people wandering around where I live.
 
I know most of us would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six
,

Most of the people on THR maybe, but not me. Dying on the street is far better in my eyes than dying in prison.Everything I carry is legal in my state and in those states I travel into.


Any how, the more "normal" the tool the better IMHO. Rest assured if you use anything to defend yourself it will be questioned at some point.

Carl's (Glad you and your dog made it out OK BTW) example for instance. Say he used an ASP. Do you think it would have went so smoothly? I doubt it. But the item he chose has a dual purpose, very easy to explain away.

Your jack handle, crowbar etc.. are normal items for their enviornment. They just happen to make handy impact weapons if needed.

a big shaved head gotee tatoo'e guy

Hmmm.. I have a shaved head and one tatoo(it says U.S Army). No gotee and I am not "big" ,maybe I can still pass as respectable.:)
 
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Dying on the street is far better in my eyes than dying in prison.
:scrutiny:

So... you're saying that if attacked you will put up no defense in order to ensure that you likely die on the street? Because if you defend, you might wind up being tried by twelve? And thereafter dying in prison?

:scrutiny:
 
but how much trouble would that get me in? (both normally and being in campus housing)

Many colleges these days have a zero tolerance policy: if you're involved in any "incidents", regardless of who's at fault, they will find some way to kick you out of campus housing.

True story: someone in my dorm happened to see something in a drug incident, but didn't want to rat on them because he was afraid of what would happen. He was not being charged in the incident, and was not personally involved. He just witnessed it. When they were trying to get him to rat, he said, "I can't do that. They'd kill me." They said, "Then your presence here is a danger to yourself and others" and kicked him out.

Public college staff are the biggest bunch of useless jerks I've ever had to deal with.

Additionally, I would not use a crowbar at all. In some areas, a crowbar is considered a burglary tool and possession of it outside of your home may land you in trouble.

puts up an arm, and it gets broke

I hope that was his arm that got broke, and not your nice walking stick.
 
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Way too many variables on this one alone - if the BG has priors for burglary you might be fine. If he's a 15 yr old who's parents claim climbed into the wrong house you could have a big fight on your hands.

He's 15 and he don't know he's breaking into the wrong house??? I don't care what his past is - if he has just broken in someone's house, the reasonable assumption is that he is committing a crime. Confronted in their home, if the homeowner is in fear for their life or serious harm (most states that is a given if someone breaks into your home), they can legally take whatever action is necessary to protect themselves.
 
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So... you're saying that if attacked you will put up no defense in order to ensure that you likely die on the street? Because if you defend, you might wind up being tried by twelve? And thereafter dying in prison?


How astute of you.You picked up that I AM INDEED A PACIFIST. I would NEVER even THINK about defending myself,EVER. All from one little snipit of my post.

Which is why I post on the NON-FIREARMS WEAPONS forum.:rolleyes:

Did you even read the OP? This discussion is what to use that is legal in most places, therefor negating( or at least limiting)the need to be tried by twelve.


But you are right, I should not be postinig my ideas or thoughts on this issue.After all I REALLY AM A PACIFIST.:cool:
 
Where I'm from...hit somebody with anything...if that person is unarmed the object you used now becomes classified as a dangerous weapon. Hit someone unarmed with a telephone receiver, a lamp, a garbage can cover, fireplace poker...etc.etc.etc.....dangerous weapon...I think the key here is where you live...what are the laws where you live...your mental state at the time you used said weapon, and were you in fear for you life to justify using lethal force or not, were your actions reasonable for a person of sound mind and body...the list goes on and on as there are many variables....each case will be looked at on an individualize basis and judged accordingly, so there is no right correct or one best answer to your question ...some places allow you to go one better than your opponent as long as he is armed....know the laws that govern you as a good starting place...and take it from there....Doc:D
 
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How astute of you.You picked up that I AM INDEED A PACIFIST. I would NEVER even THINK about defending myself,EVER. All from one little snipit of my post.
No, not from one little snipit(sic). From the gist of the statement which read in its entirety:

Most of the people on THR maybe, but not me. Dying on the street is far better in my eyes than dying in prison.Everything I carry is legal in my state and in those states I travel into.
So everything you carry is legal. Fine. If you kill somebody with something "legal", you still run a not inconsiderable chance of being "tried by twelve". Therefore negating (or at least limiting) the accuracy of your comment:

Did you even read the OP? This discussion is what to use that is legal in most places, therefor negating( or at least limiting)the need to be tried by twelve.
The only way you can be certain of avoiding a trial is as you said, "Die on the street".



Should you have an encounter, hopefully you won't be assaulted with anything sharp. You seem to have very thin skin.

:cool:
 
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So everything you carry is legal. Fine. If you kill somebody with something "legal", you still run a not inconsiderable chance of being "tried by twelve". Therefore negating (or at least limiting) the accuracy of your comment:

Who is talking about killing someone? Believe it or not people can defend themselves without going to deadly force.

Using a simple "improvised" impact weapon is not lethal force were I live. It is a Dangerous Instrument depending on the intent of the user.

The only way you can be certain of avoiding a trial is as you said, "Die on the street".

No, I did not say I'd rather die on the street than go to trial.Did I? I do prefer It to going to prison.You took it it mean not going to trial.

The mantra "Tried by twelve than carried by six" gets used on THR a lot. The majority of people use it to justify jumping to deadly force instead of a bridge weapon.Or in the extreme to justify carring something not within the law. Trusting twelve of their peers to keep them out of prison."At least I am alive" is not a thought that would enter my mind while meeting my new friends in general population at the State Penn.

If the mantra ,"Tried by twelve than carried by six", means something differant to you then I can understand your "interpritation" of my statement.
 
Gentlemen, thinking about the OP, I had some thoughts I' like to add to this discussipn.

What is leagal everywhere, has no backlash at all, can be carried by anyone?

There is only one tool in the self defense arsenal that fits this description. I'll explain.

As I mentioned in another post not too long ago, I'm a member of a depression group that meets at the V.A. hospital in Washington D.C. once a week. I'm the only white guy there, me being from the outer suburbs of Germantown Maryland. Most of my fellow vets are African-American from the local area of Washington D.C. Not some of the best parts either. Low income, high crime inner city getto areas. Most of my fellows in our 8 person group have had records of jail time, drug problems, and a few hard case prison terms. Convicted fellons from southeast D.C. Irving street, 8th street.

Over a few months one can't help but to get to know each other, and over a few coffees at the coffee bar in the lobby, we talk. Very gradually the barriers have come down a great deal, in spite of our different backgrounds, after all, once we were all soldiers in the same war. Common memories there. Now we have a common problem.

The one I think is the Forrest Whitticker look alike, Harvey, and a few others have developed a habit of after our session, of meeting together for a coffee downstairs and just talking. The subject came up a month or so back about self defense. A subject they are very interested in given where they live.

It was pointed out to me, while I had noticed, the vast majority of men at the V.A. carried a stick. This varried from the standard crook top cane handed out by the V.A. to rustic rough walking sticks that looked like they had been crudely made from about half an oak tree. Charater sticks. Rough finished, with bends and crooks in the them, some sanded down to a nicer finish with Arican symbols and figures carved or burned into them with a small fine soldering iron. Some very nicely done. A few here and there were only a short strait staff of a stick, barely more than a sawn off tree limb of stout proportions.

Now this was a V.A. hospital, so I took no notice of the sticks. After all, there was alot of us old Viet Nam vets limping around with various old injuries giving us problems, and a growing number of younger Gulf war vets coming in. But it was Harvey that pointed out something to me. He told me to watch them coming in. Only then did I realize that a very great number of them did not appear to need a stick at all. They would stop at the newspaper machine by the door and buy a paper, place the stick under thier arm and continue to walk across the big atrium with no limp at all while looking at the paper. Or they'd tuck the stick under thier arm while buying a coffee and walk off with the stick still tucked under thier arm, walking perfectly normal.

I was sitting there with "Harvey", "Charles", and "Moody" and they filled me in.

These men had no physical need of a cane, but they walked the mean streets of Washington D.C. living in bad nieghborhoods. And they all had a very stout rustic stick. The stick was sending a message. Apparantly the weapon of choice in D.C. for street muggings is a kitchen knife. Something like a large paring or short boning knife. This is for a couple of reasons. One being its cheap. It can be stolen from home by a juvinile, or swiped from a discount store, and its shiney and pointy, and will work at its intended task. Task being, intimidating a victim into giving up his wallet and cell phone. The knife works, because they pick thier mark carefully, work at "in your face range" and when they run off they toss the knife down the sewer along with your cell phone and wallet once they remove cash from the wallet. They only want your cell phone to cripple your attempts to call the police fast, giving them a bit more lead time. They only need a few minutes. Getting caught with a cell phone that is not yours can be a problem if you have a record.

Guns are a valuble tool for robbing a liquor store or convienence store, but considered too valuble to a street punk for a simple mugging. The Glocks come out for drug turf wars, druggie on druggie crime, and drive bys to hit a rival gang member. Since most gang members are convicted fellons, they are very concious of keeping the gun hidden till they need it. Lower etchilon street punks use a knife. Its cheap and effective, and disposable. No fuss, no muss.

So the older reformed guys carry a big stick, as a message to the street punks that if you try to take them, theres going to be a beat down. Go away. The stick is carried by guys like Harvey who have a record, can't afford to be caught with a weapon, but needs something since they live in a rough 'hood. No laws anywhere about a walking stick. But it gives them a tool to use. It buys them distance, blocking ability, and longer range strike ability. But most of all it's a visable flag sending a message to the right people, try me, but there's going to be a fight.

I thought about that, and recalled a while back when three latino street types backed down from me in Frederick Maryland. They had moved to bloke my path on a backstreet sidewalk, but when I changed my grip on my knarly blackthorn stick I use, and got ready to start swinging, they moved aside. Three late teens-early 20 punks backed down from a white haired senior citizen with a stick. They knew there was going to be a fight, and they didn't want my wallet that bad.

After my talk with the guys, I had to drive accross town to meet somebody, and I noticed as I drove through some not so good 'hoods, the large number of African-American men in D.C. carrying a stick. It had never really registered on me before, but in every nieghborhood there was at least one or two guys on every street carrying a stick. Not using it to walk, just carrying it. Not caring what anyone thought. Just going about thier life, and carrying stick just in case of something.

I can't think of ANY other tool that can be carried, stored, transported ANYWHERE, than a stick of one form or another. Even onto airlines and into court houses. If your over 40, nobody gives you a second glance. If your a young guy, tell them you messed up your ankle in that rugby game last month and it still bothers you on stairs. Or you dumped the dirt bike and it still bugs you a little on stairs or uneven surfaces. Some activity you're known to do. After a few weeks it will become such a part of you, it will not even be noticed. People adapt to changes very quickly. If you don't make a big deal out of it, they won't. Most young guys feel self concious and blow it because of what they are feeling, not from external flack. If you stick it out, (okay, bad pun!) it will just become part of your persona. If somebody says something to one of your friends, "Why is so and so carrying that cane around?" it will just come out that "Oh, he messed up some tendon or something in a soccer game."

Carry the stick/cane around and in a few weeks it will become part of you. The feeling of awkwardness will fade, and you won't be stumbling over it, forgetting it, or self concious about it.

So leave the jack handle in the truck, the crowbar in the tool chest, the machete in the garden shed. You can move a piece of hickory faster than a steel tool that is too heavy for good fighting. Have a cane or stout walking stick in your car and take it with you when you get out, and a nice heavy hickory or hornbeam hiking stick or short staff handy in your dorm room. Travelers on the byways of medieval Europe did very well against robbers by using a quarter staff and knowing how to use it. The old guys in Asia did very well too, using staffs. The famed samuri Musashi killed some of his enemys with a wooden training sword rather than a steel one. This opens up a world of possabilities. Training with a boken is not hard to come by, and the training is in your head forever. Nobody can ever take it away, or tell you that you can't carry it. The knowledge in your head, plus a stick/cane can go ANYWHERE with you. If you don't have a stick, one can be gotten anyplace. You can even cut down a nice strait sappling and have one imediatly. Yank a towl bar off a wall, kick a rung out of a wooden chair, break off a pool que. A stick plus the kowledge in your head of how to use it, can be priceless. This also goes for short baton techniques. Any short stick will do. I understand a good London Bobby with his truchion is worth three normal people in a fight. For hiking, I like a shorter staff. The old rod, as in "Thy rod and staff comfort me." This is a short staff that comes only up to your lowest rib. I find it to be manoverable and handy.

A club was mans first weapon. The simple blunt instrument. A walking stick/hiking staff/boken is just a refinment of 50'000 years of evolution. The elegance of simplicity.

Short of a gun, I really don't think there is an equivent. Learn to use a stick right, get good instuction, and you have a tool/skills base that can never be taken from you, outlawed, or be not available. The nearest broom or floor mop can provide you with a defense tool.

Teddy Roosevelt had quoted an old Masaii proverb. "Speak softly and carry a big stick, and you will go far."
 
No matter what you do or what you do it with, the common denominator you need is the fear of imminent bodily harm/death to your self or another person, and the ability to articulate it ( or have it articulated ) in a court of law...you can be right and still get screwed over in court,but lethal force statutes are mostly the same-even in screwed up Massachusetts, Ny and California municipalities.
Stay alive,survive the encounter-thats the first step. Next-say NOTHING but how you were afraid for your/someone else's safety and how it all happened so fast. AVOID details except for the ones your lawyer filters and feeds the investigators/court etc.Which also tells you to IMMEDIATELY request the services of an attorney after "he was going t kill/cripple me/whoever" leaves your lips.
 
nice post, carl, I never thought about being able to get a stick onto an airline, elegance of simplicity indeed. What do you guys think about the wrench, or non-aggressive seeming tools in general, for that matter?
 
But yeah. If you ever have to utilize your basic human right to self-defense on university property, it's practically guaranteed that they will take some action against you. Their view is, "You were involved, thus you share some of the blame", even if it's totally legally justifiable and it would be a violation of landlord / tenant laws to evict you for it. Universities get away with violating the Federal Fair Housing Act all the time.
 
As Carl mentioned the stick if properly trained with can be a devastating tool for self-defense and can be carried legally anywhere....Yes it can send the message {Don't mess with me I am armed} but also be aware it can also send the message {I'm am injured and or frail and not able to defend myself}....thus making you a possible target for attack..It's a double edged sword here...I know of many an elderly or handicapped person who have become victims to the despicable garbage that sometimes walk our streets and preys upon the helpless. Just be aware that carrying a cane or stick can send two different types of messages to the scum of the earth....Doc:D
 
Thank you Cynic. It's just taking the K.I.S.S. principal to its conclusion.

I myself think the travel wrenches, stingers, plastic knives with "Letter Opener" on it are bad idea's. The cops know about them, as do most of the TSA security, bar security, campus security. If you do use one of the covert weapons, there just may be some jerk of a ambitious assistant to some deputy D.A that wants to get noticed and move up in thier job. It's easy to find some site on the internet where some yahoo is pushing the effectiveness of the stinger or jaw jacker, or whatever.

Keep it simple, and keep it strait. If you want an additonal impact weapon, get a AA mini mag and stick it in a back pocket or jacket pocket. It's for sale at any Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, Kmart for cheap. Everybody sees a mag light as a flashlight. It would be a tough sell to convince a jury you're a mad maglight mauler. Hey, it gets dark every single night as long as I've been alive. A flashlight is a handy thing to have if you drop something in a theater, finding your key hole at night. You're going to have a tough time convincing a jury that something like a polymer impact device that has no real world function is llegit. But a minimag slides right in under radar like it was greased with KY. I've also walked onto airliners with a AA minimag in my pocket. All the TSA guy wanted to do was make sure it worked. I had to show him the batteries, then turn the light on. He waved me by. So I sit there on the plane with a knobby blackthorn stick, a minimag, and a Cross pen in my pocket. Yeah, threaten me with a box cutter.

As far as getting grief for a stick if you use it on campus, no. All institutions are scared silly of a little thing called the Americans With Disabilities Act. Nobody these days is going to give any grief to somebody with a cane. It's too risky. If they start to grill you, just shut them up with "Exuse me, but are you trying to make it my fault because I need a cane? " asked in an icredulous tone of voice. Then give them the " If you're going to discriminate against me for having to have a cane, maybe I should just call my lawyer!"

At this point, even if they are stupid enough not to recognize the cracking sound of the thin ice they are now standing on, somebody is going to give the guy a "can I see you outside for a minute?" and tell him to shut the h--- up before they PO you enough to suit the heck out of them. Hey it works, Use the system.

As far as the stick sending the wrong message, it all depends on how your walking and carrying it. They will be watching you very carefully, and they will see what you want them to. You won't be limping, and your not leaning on the stick. The wolf knows which buck not to pick on.
 
Carl is right again, In the two years I have had to use a cane only one one person has has ever challanged me, about why I have it. It was young security guy at a country western concert, I told him go get your boss, an overage sarge who just looked at me and said have a nice day sir, and then proceeded to chew the kids butt.
 
He's 15 and he don't know he's breaking into the wrong house??? I don't care what his past is - if he has just broken in someone's house, the reasonable assumption is that he is committing a crime. Confronted in their home, if the homeowner is in fear for their life or serious harm (most states that is a given if someone breaks into your home), they can legally take whatever action is necessary to protect themselves.

Of course the BG is in the wrong - but that doesn't mean you won't lose everything in civil court, either.
 
Of course the BG is in the wrong - but that doesn't mean you won't lose everything in civil court, either.

Got any cites where this has happened? Homeowner totally justified in their actions, in fear of death or serious bodily harm, acts in defense of self or family in their home, and looses everything. Make a good read on the forum.
 
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Yea I have a list right here...geez. If you don't think you can end up in court after defending yourself you're greatly mistaken.
 
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