Rational thoughts on Cecil

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...an illegal hunt on a national treasure of another country.
That is funny. Africans don't worship their wildlife. That's for left wing, American busy-bodies, with nothing better to do. Apparently life is so easy in the US that people have to mind others' business to have anything to do. This phony "outrage" only exists on social media.
 
Zimbabwe's national treasure? I don't know. Maybe, only since this incident, yeah, the cat has been bandied about, propagandized as if he was always something of a big to-do.

Because I keep seeing reports like this, regarding how this lion was largely unknown, unimportant, not a celebrity nor a national treasure to the Zimbabweans... 'What lion?' Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus
How do you delete part of a quote, completely changing the quotes direction, from a post where you check the box "Quote message in reply"? I don't know that trick. I usually don't see that in The High Road forum. That is common on ARFCOM.
 
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How do you delete part of a quote, completely changing the quotes direction, from a post where you check the box "Quote message in reply"? I don't know that trick. I usually don't see that in The High Road forum. That is common on ARFCOM.
PM sent
 
Article kinda puts things in perspective.


jlr1962, I used your quote out of context and put it in another. Wasn't my intent to twist your words against you, just "them".
 
That is funny. Africans don't worship their wildlife. That's for left wing, American busy-bodies, with nothing better to do. Apparently life is so easy in the US that people have to mind others' business to have anything to do. This phony "outrage" only exists on social media.


This thread is supposed to be about “rational thoughts on Cecil”, but apparently it is being used for other purposes (the above post for example). Specifically the use is for irrational, bigoted remarks about the political and moral beliefs of some people with whom they disagree. Apparently some “Conservatives” feel justified in asserting that when “Liberals” express concern and disgust about the death of Cecil and trophy hunting, something that does effect the World we all live in, it is considered minding other people’s business. Of course some of those same “Conservatives” are outraged when “Liberals” complain about “Conservatives” failing to mind their own business when it comes to women making decisions about their bodies, adult’s bedroom behavior, and laws based on separation of church and state. Some “Conservatives” are every bit as much a bunch of whining, hypocritical busy bodies as some “Liberals”. All of which should be irrelevant in a thread about “rational thoughts on Cecil” but apparently some “Conservatives” believe this thread is an opportunity to obliquely insult and denigrate people whom they disagree on other political issues. In my experience, people who do this are often later discovered to be the biggest of hypocrites. For the benefit of any individuals of limited perspective and perspicacity, be assured that there are both “Liberals” and “Conservatives” who are outraged about the killing of Cecil, and dislike trophy hunting.
 
the truth if you want to face it, is that the natives of most african countries will kill and eat every animal big and small they can catch, snare or otherwise put in the pot and when they run out of things to eat and no money comming in they will be in dire straights and their govenments don,t give a rats as* about them as long as they are eating well on the aid they recieve form other countries that they feed to their armies to keep them in power. if animals have value and bring in income along with the meat for the locals its a win-win for the natives and the animals can be regulated and the animal groups kept healhy and when this happens poaching goes down. i,m no expert on africa,but i have seen how a good hunting ranch is run and managed to protect the animals and keep the balance of good hunting along with a good population of animals to hunt. i have close to three months hunting in africa on seven ranches and all were run with in the law and ethical hunting pratices. where hunting of every kind of animals has been stopped the animals have declined and poaching has increased in those countries and that is a fact in africa. eastbank.
 
This thread is supposed to be about “rational thoughts on Cecil”, but apparently it is being used for other purposes (the above post for example). Specifically the use is for irrational, bigoted remarks about the political and moral beliefs of some people with whom they disagree. Apparently some “Conservatives” feel justified in asserting that when “Liberals” express concern and disgust about the death of Cecil and trophy hunting, something that does effect the World we all live in, it is considered minding other people’s business. Of course some of those same “Conservatives” are outraged when “Liberals” complain about “Conservatives” failing to mind their own business when it comes to women making decisions about their bodies, adult’s bedroom behavior, and laws based on separation of church and state. Some “Conservatives” are every bit as much a bunch of whining, hypocritical busy bodies as some “Liberals”. All of which should be irrelevant in a thread about “rational thoughts on Cecil” but apparently some “Conservatives” believe this thread is an opportunity to obliquely insult and denigrate people whom they disagree on other political issues. In my experience, people who do this are often later discovered to be the biggest of hypocrites. For the benefit of any individuals of limited perspective and perspicacity, be assured that there are both “Liberals” and “Conservatives” who are outraged about the killing of Cecil, and dislike trophy hunting.
No, it's more of a response to what WE are called by THEM (you???). I have been called more nasty things, had more misguided accusations, death threats, wishes for ill-will towards me and my family by animal rights lunatics than I could dare to count. All for the pursuit of a legal and ethical sport. Are we getting all political and personal now?

04Cecil-web-articleLarge.jpg
 
I think the message needs more clarity to appeal to the main stream population.

As I understand the issues, the truth is simple. Legal trophy huning results in sustainable populations, and where trophy hunting is illegal, populations suffer. But the biggest counter argument is that money should be spent on conservation instead of hunting so that none of the animals need to be killed.

The counter argument, however, doesn't make sense because conservationists have a natural desire to report declining populations in order to maintain fundraising. It's simply a matter of one's pecuniary interest, and recognizing how money can dictate whethere there is a conflict of interest.

Hunting on the other hand requires the maintenance of populations in order to guarantee a sustainable cash flow.

In other words, the trophy hunting industry needs to go on the counter attack and expose the reasons why conservation efforts fail. If there is corruption to be exposed, then so be it. People, in fact, often expect corruption to be existing where a failure is present.

The highly emotional opposition, of course, will never be swayed.

But a message should be directed to rational main stream people in a way that will be noticed by policy makers, sending a message that trophy hunting is essential for wildlife management, and that those reasons justify their support for the industry.
 
the truth if you want to face it, is that the natives of most african countries will kill and eat every animal big and small they can catch, snare or otherwise put in the pot and when they run out of things to eat and no money comming in they will be in dire straights and their govenments don,t give a rats as* about them as long as they are eating well on the aid they recieve form other countries that they feed to their armies to keep them in power. if animals have value and bring in income along with the meat for the locals its a win-win for the natives and the animals can be regulated and the animal groups kept healhy and when this happens poaching goes down. i,m no expert on africa,but i have seen how a good hunting ranch is run and managed to protect the animals and keep the balance of good hunting along with a good population of animals to hunt. i have close to three months hunting in africa on seven ranches and all were run with in the law and ethical hunting pratices. where hunting of every kind of animals has been stopped the animals have declined and poaching has increased in those countries and that is a fact in africa. eastbank.

I agree that what you posted is the status quo in Africa and that revenue from trophy hunting is significant in preserving species and aiding local economies. What I disagree with is that only maintaining the status quo can be effective in preserving species and aiding local economies. Other methods of funding may be a viable. Unfortunately, sufficient effort has not been made to promote other methods. I am sure trophy hunters would still hunt for trophies even if the fees they pay and the money they spend in local economies was not significant to preserving species or the local economies. What I keep reading here on THR about trophy hunting is what amounts to hunters proclaiming they are performing their “civic duty” to the World as much as an act of killing for pleasure. I have no doubt that few hunters would ever regret losing that sense of performing a civic duty if they did not have to pay hunting fees or contribute to local economies. I doubt they would volunteer to fund preservation if other funding was already sufficient but would be beneficial if used elsewhere.
 
No, it's more of a response to what WE are called by THEM (you???). I have been called more nasty things, had more misguided accusations, death threats, wishes for ill-will towards me and my family by animal rights lunatics than I could dare to count. All for the pursuit of a legal and ethical sport. Are we getting all political and personal now?

04Cecil-web-articleLarge.jpg


Sincerely, you do have my sympathy for what you say has occurred to you and your family, but you cannot fairly label or blame all people who disagree with you as “animal rights lunatics”. Most people who are against trophy hunting will agree it is usually a legal activity, but have varying amounts of disagreement with it being ethical.

You brought the political term "Left Wing" (Liberals) and opinion about the "Left Wing" (Liberals) into the conversation. As far as getting personal, you cannot get much more personal than your twice now sending me a PM telling me I am a “prick”.
 
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in the many game parks in africa(the ones i went in) where only photo hunts are allowed there is nothing done to keep the balance of food- animal ratio as hunting would. so they cull hunt(killed by paid shooters) the excess animals, with no money comming from the culled animals and most meat goes to waste and in the parks there are no skinning,tracking jobs that also add to the local imployment. on the ranchs i hunted the owner set the amount,size and kinds (male,female) of animals taken with set fees for the animals and when the limit was reached,no more could be taken and thats how the owner regulated the amount of healthy aminals on his land, you could do photo hunts on the ranchs i was on,but i never saw any while i was there and some of these ranchs are very big. in a perfect world,animals would not breed more than died so the food supply would last forever, but that is not natures way and when preditors or hunter are low or nonexsitent they will eat or breed untill they have no food and then mother nature will lay them low with a vengence. eastbank.
 

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Nom de Forum, what has been proven to be demonstrable fact is that money from hunters is the primary reason for stability or enhancement in populations of many game species. Other parties who care about wildlife have never invested anywhere near the amount of money that hunters have.

The photo-safari crowd's money goes mostly to the corporations who invest in facilities, transportation and maintenance. The only money available for wildlife from them can only come from after-tax profits.

Income from, say, a $30,000 group photo safari yields maybe a $3,000 pre-tax profit. It is common for half of a $30,000 trophy license to go to local villagers--plus the meat.

This money creates a vested interest on the part of the villagers in regarding wildlife with approval and protecting it, rather than as pestiferous destroyers of crops and attackers of people and livestock. Hard for a poacher to "swim in the sea" of anti-poachers.

Animal rights activists come predominantly from liberal/leftist groups who know little or nothing about the realities of hunting. (My own observation about people after many decades of watching is that the less somebody knows about a subject, the stronger his opinion. That holds for both Left and Right.) The amount of name-calling and even death threats are IMO absolutely appalling. Irrational and immature, to say the least.

To digress for a moment: Ingrid Newkirk came here from England to begin PETA in the U.S. She stated for the record, "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." She wants to end all animal husbandry of whatever sort and end the possession of pets.

Wayne Pacelle founded HSUS, the Humane Society of the United States. His goal is stated publicly to be the end of all hunting and after that, the end of fishing.

Neither are concerned about the consequences of their success--or the cost of the necessary methodology to carry out all that if such laws were enacted.

From my vantage point of 81 years of age, I call them and their disciples irrational.
 
What I keep reading here on THR about trophy hunting is what amounts to hunters proclaiming they are performing their “civic duty” to the World as much as an act of killing for pleasure.
Is that what we're doing, "killing for pleasure"??? I thought we were hunting for pleasure. First you condemn trophy hunters, now it's all hunters??? Here's a valid question, what are you doing here??? Do you even know what "trophy hunting" is???

IMHO, we should be able to have a hunting discussion, on the hunting section of a shooting forum, without having to deal with the antics of people like yourself.
 
If you come on a gun forum you might run into people that hunt. If you disagree with their hunting, whatever animal it might be, then you should expect some push back.

As I have said I have NO interest in big game hunting or safaris but I fully support the people who choose to do it. The fact is that the rabid anti hunters are in league with the rabid anti gun people (often the same) the rabid anti this and anti that. These people are the ones that are going all stupid over the death of an animal that NOBODY even cares about in Zimbabwe. If you don't like being lumped into this group then I suggest you disassociate yourself from their causes. Bringing homosexuality and abortion into a discussion about big game hunting isn't High Road or particularly helpful to anyone.

I am a rancher and I have many friends that are farmers. Most of them will tell you that the only reason they have deer on their property is because people will pay to hunt them. Otherwise they would get depredation permits and kill them off. Same scenario as in Africa. The money the farmer gets from hunters keeps the deer population thriving. I doubt the photo folks will pay a lot to take pictures of deer.
 
Nom de Forum, what has been proven to be demonstrable fact is that money from hunters is the primary reason for stability or enhancement in populations of many game species. Other parties who care about wildlife have never invested anywhere near the amount of money that hunters have.

Agreed.

The photo-safari crowd's money goes mostly to the corporations who invest in facilities, transportation and maintenance. The only money available for wildlife from them can only come from after-tax profits.

Income from, say, a $30,000 group photo safari yields maybe a $3,000 pre-tax profit. It is common for half of a $30,000 trophy license to go to local villagers--plus the meat.

I don't dispute that.

This money creates a vested interest on the part of the villagers in regarding wildlife with approval and protecting it, rather than as pestiferous destroyers of crops and attackers of people and livestock. Hard for a poacher to "swim in the sea" of anti-poachers.

That does not eliminate the possibility finding funding that is even more effective in doing the same thing. Just because it has not happened does not mean it cannot happen.

Animal rights activists come predominantly from liberal/leftist groups who know little or nothing about the realities of hunting. (My own observation about people after many decades of watching is that the less somebody knows about a subject, the stronger his opinion. That holds for both Left and Right.) The amount of name-calling and even death threats are IMO absolutely appalling. Irrational and immature, to say the least.

I don’t disagree about the predominance and behaviors you mention, however the same can be said of conservative/rightest groups on other topics. Extremists on both ends of the political spectrum are much the same in the tactics they employ and lack of understanding of the realities of subjects.

To digress for a moment: Ingrid Newkirk came here from England to begin PETA in the U.S. She stated for the record, "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy." She wants to end all animal husbandry of whatever sort and end the possession of pets.

Wayne Pacelle founded HSUS, the Humane Society of the United States. His goal is stated publicly to be the end of all hunting and after that, the end of fishing.

Neither are concerned about the consequences of their success--or the cost of the necessary methodology to carry out all that if such laws were enacted.

From my vantage point of 81 years of age, I call them and their disciples irrational.

Neither of these extremists are representative of many people who oppose trophy hunting. In fact, many people who oppose trophy hunting have more beliefs in common with trophy hunters than Newkirk, Pacelle, and their “disciples”, including me. If trophy hunting was solely about hunting to remove the sick, the disabled, the over-populated, and individual animals that are a threat to life or destructive of property, I would not be taking so much of my time to express an opinion that results in receiving so much hostility and scorn. Trophy hunting is ultimately about killing the biggest and fittest specimens of a species (which is not the what natural selection does to preserve species) for personal pleasure and to garner prestige from like minded people. I support hunting for food harvest, and culling of over-populated and destructive species.
 
If you come on a gun forum you might run into people that hunt. If you disagree with their hunting, whatever animal it might be, then you should expect some push back.

Just how is that different from a discussion on any other THR topic. You obviously have not followed the THR discussions I have participated in or you would be aware I am well prepared for "push back".

As I have said I have NO interest in big game hunting or safaris but I fully support the people who choose to do it. The fact is that the rabid anti hunters are in league with the rabid anti gun people (often the same) the rabid anti this and anti that. These people are the ones that are going all stupid over the death of an animal that NOBODY even cares about in Zimbabwe. If you don't like being lumped into this group then I suggest you disassociate yourself from their causes. Bringing homosexuality and abortion into a discussion about big game hunting isn't High Road or particularly helpful to anyone.

Hunters/Trophy Hunters/Gun People lumping into one group anyone who disagrees with them on one topic or aspect of a topic is no more justifiable or productive than their opponents doing the same. This thread's discussion is not just about the hunting of big game. The thread topic is about "rational thoughts on Cecil" and it was expanded to the not very High Road disparagement of the political beliefs of people some posters dislike. You should be admonishing those people. I never mentioned homosexuality or abortion for purposes of discussion or condemnation of those who oppose it. I merely made a comparison of political extremes.

I am a rancher and I have many friends that are farmers. Most of them will tell you that the only reason they have deer on their property is because people will pay to hunt them. Otherwise they would get depredation permits and kill them off. Same scenario as in Africa. The money the farmer gets from hunters keeps the deer population thriving. I doubt the photo folks will pay a lot to take pictures of deer.

I understand the situation. That does not mean I agree preservation of African game can only continue by the using the means of the status quo.
 
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That does not eliminate the possibility finding funding that is even more effective in doing the same thing. Just because it has not happened does not mean it cannot happen.
This is completely irrelevant. That funding does not exist. We KNOW what works. It is entirely possible for hunters and eco-tourists to get what they want. That is, if they can focus on their mutual enemies, poaching and habitat destruction, rather than each other. Wild game is a sustainable natural resource. The reason for hunting it (trophy vs meat) is irrelevant.

And again, the species in question are NOT endangered. :banghead:

And again, it is well known what has happened in those countries that have banned sport hunting. It is utterly stupid on the part of the anti-hunters (of any kind) to think that hunting bans will have a positive effect. But then, those folks usually don't learn from history and are doomed to repeat it.
 
Hunting may involve killing. Not all killing is hunting.
There is much that factors into a hunt, from the hunter's heart and mind.
IMHO it tends to put everything about one's being on the end of an arrow or bullet.

And in that, is variable in some aspects.

Not always pretty, not always what it appears to outsiders, but deep down..........the same.

It may come to others differently, and or be developed over time.

But when I hear my arrow thump the chest cavity of a deer you bet I'm happy.
I do enjoy the kill. It means I did my stuff right.

There is no apology for having done a difficult task well.

Don't understand? Don't believe?

I don't care.

Damn good at it and proud of it.

Don't have to kill, but that is the focus. Work hard to have the opportunities, but acting within them..........that sometimes just depends on mood. Sometimes its enough to have it, and let it go.

After the shot, going to the hit location and smelling the hit in the air, before any visual sign.........brings a smile to my face.

If you haven't done it you probably don't get it.

Much much more to it...........but yeah, I do enjoy the kill. No apologies.
 
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It amazes me how many boring and shallow people there are in this world, and how many also don't think.

Everything revolves around them and their experiences, their thoughts.

Anything different must be wrong.

No wonder they are miserable and always worrying about what other people are doing.

They are a PITA even if they don't condemn trophy hunting or hunting in general.

Do understand that people are different, come in all types............but why are we being governed (directly and indirectly) by these lesser character/thinking folks?

It's ridiculous.
 
hunting for me has been a life long dream, why i,m not sure. it started shooting grasshoppers with a sling shot on a long dusty farm lane on my way walking home from school at 6-7 years old. when the older members of my familey would be getting ready to hunt in the fall for small or large game i was always up with them, and liked the smells(gun oil) and the sounds of actions being worked and the sights of getting ready for the comming hunt and wishing with all my heart i could join them and when i did at age nine i stayed awake all night long just thinking about the hunt and if i would be lucky enought to bag a few rabbits or ringnecks or a nice deer and all the meat was table fare for this farm familey(groundhogs included). after hunting and fishing trips all over the USA, mexico and canada. when i got the chance to hunt in several african countries i went, not once but three times and i will go again if the is lord is willing. talk about staying up all night,how about all week. for every shot i fired i took a thousand pictures and met and made dozens of new friends.i am a hunter and i am not sorry to say that. eastbank.
 

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