RCBS small base dies

[PCCUSNRET]

I have both SB and FL RCBS .223 dies and have found that some brass that I size with the FL will not fit in one of my guns. I run the same brass through the SB die and it works just fine. This brass was crimped LC brass but I have no clue what it was shot in. I had a friend try this brass in this AR and he had the same problem. So if the SB doesn't really do anything than there must be something wrong with my FL die (and yes, I turned the die 1/4 turn after it hit the shellholder ;-).

 

[ranger335v]

"While I agree that most chambers are big enough to make small base dies unnecessary, RCBS isn't into "gimmicks."

I think that can be successfully challanged in quite a few gimmicky areas by anyone who knows much of the company's history.

 

[45ACPUSER]

RCBS does not make 7.62 x 39 in small base sets only! That is hog wash of the NTH degree.

RCBS makes two Small Base Die Sets
One is with a standard Roll Crimp Seater Die
And, the new Group AR Die sets with a Taper Crimp Seater Die

I have been loading 223 since 1978 for Mini 14, AR's, HK 93, and so and so forth. I have used Lee FL Sizer, RCBS FL Sizer, Redding Type S FL SIzer, and Redding Standard Sizer.
And, I have no clue as to how many rounds that includes.

Now, never used one for 308 and 06 when loading for M1 Garand and M1A, either.

I have used Small base dies for a few things. Reloading for Browning BAR' in Maganum calibers. The cases needed it.

I have used Small Base Bode die when I had a 308 rebarreled to a tight palma chamber, to get my brass to work that was fired in the old bbl.

Now, I advise that using a Small Base 308 Sizer is pretty near standard practice when dealing with 308 LC Brass bought once fired...as most comes from a Machine Gun with sloppy chamber.

But routine use of small base sizer die just accelearates the over working of the brass.

Even though auto loader brass has a short case life for the most part, unless certain steps are taken, it IMHO a waste.

 

[Waywatcher]

RCBS does not make 7.62 x 39 in small base sets only! That is hog wash of the NTH degree.

RCBS makes two Small Base Die Sets
One is with a standard Roll Crimp Seater Die
And, the new Group AR Die sets with a Taper Crimp Seater Die

I was surprised as well but it is true. Source: Speer Reloading Manual #14 Chapter 8, page 106. Speer is owned by ATK, and so is RCBS, they even admit as much in the manual; that they are sister companies.

"Standard dies for cartridges such as the 7.62x39mm and the .30 Carbine originally designed for semi-auto rifles are already a small base design so no special dies are normally required for resizing."

Some dies are already small base and people don't even know it! In any case, it is correct to use small base dies to load for semi-auto and pump action rifles; some people can just "avoid paying the piper" when using the wrong dies.

 

[Walkalong]

it is correct to use small base dies to load for semi-auto and pump action rifles; some people can just "avoid paying the piper" when using the wrong dies

I sincerely disagree. It is generally considered best to full length size for pumps and autos. Many of us size to fit a case gauge, and find that small base dies are not needed to do so. Unless you have a very tight (read undersized) chamber, that will work just fine the vast majority of time.

 

[Waywatcher]

I consider "Best" to be when I follow the instructions and my ammo works reliably in any gun as a result. My point is, "best" is subjective. I stand by my assertion that it is correct to use small base dies for semi-autos and pumps.

 

[Walkalong]

We will just have to disagree.

 

[newfalguy101]

The only small base die I own is in .308 Win and I NEED it for my Savage 99 as a standard die doesnt size the cases enough to easily chamber.

I use a standard Hornady die for my 223

 

[bigedp51]

Small base dies should never be used unless a standard full length die does not resize the base of the case to chamber a cartridge. Also note that the use of a small base dies can shorten the life of your reloaded cases.

 

[GW Staar]

That doesn't sound like the dies fault, that sounds like a gun with a chamber smaller than SAMMI minimum.

I believe I said that, except that MY rifle chamber used as my example is at the SAMMI minimum according to my gun smith...evidently, that can cause problems. I personally think the problem lies in the fact that nothing is perfect. Dies, Chambers, Factory Ammo, certainly reloaded ammo...add that all together and things happen once in a while unless everybody stays in the center of the SAMMI Specs. Unfortunately they sometimes don't.

RCBS is into selling dies, and things like "AR dies" sells. I think it is excellent sales technique. Won't dispute that, but please, Dillon makes small base dies, and people say they're wonderful. RCBS makes them and its a gimmick. Double standard IMO.

They include a small base die to get less complaints from folks who are sloppy reloaders. IMHO of course. But that isn't the only factor or reason, there flat are rifles with chambers minimum enough to require those dies....I'm very happy you haven't found one yet in your own collection, not all of us take a chamber gauge to the gun store when we buy a rifle!

If you have a tool to show you what you are actually doing when sizing your brass, and not guessing, the small base dies are not going to be needed 95% or better of the time.

I don't ever guess. Lightning still struck, in spite of the reloads sliding in just right in my Wilson headspace gauge, double checked with an RCBS Precision mic.

One more thing I feel the need to repeat. Reducing the base diameter by .001 or .002 is so minimal, I have to laugh at the many sources that say case life is affected. Cases will fail due to AR actions and shoulder set back in generous chambers, long before they will fail due that miniscule sizing of the bases.

 

[kelbro]

When I finally started reloading 223, I picked up an RCBS SB die because I had 3 ARs in addition to a couple of bolt action 223s. Sized thousands of cases with that set of dies. Never had a stuck case. Never had a case that wouldn't chamber. Brass lasts 10-15 sizings. So I can't see any negative to using them. May have had the same results with a standard set but I have no reason to swap them out now. I also have a Redding bushing-type FLS die and the difference in diameter is less than .001".

 

[Walkalong]

Cases will fail due to AR actions and shoulder set back in generous chambers, long before they will fail due that miniscule sizing of the bases.

I certainly won't disagree with that, but it isn't the question. The question is if small base dies are "needed" to load for an auto, as well as Waywatchers assertion that they are "correct" for loading for autos. There seems to be some strong opinions on both sides of the debate.

 

[MtnCreek]

I think it depends more on the final use of the cartridge. If we're loading for our autoloaders and standard FL works and works every time, then I would consider it to be the correct method, if for no other reason than it's easier on our equipment. If it does not produce 100% function, then it's not the correct method. Small commerical loaders using standard presses and once fired brass most likely use small base dies because these cartridges are made with the intent to be fired in any firearm chambered for that cartridge. That's probably why Dillon dies are small base.

 

[ranger335v]

A big part of the disagreements about SB sizers is the common desire to just follow a preset procedure to make things "right".

Since the occasional shamber WILL be on the minium side of SAAMI dimenstions and the occasional die will be on the large size and since autos, levers and pumps have less camming force it's clear some guys WILL benefit from a SB die. Thus SB dies are made and they work well for anything. BUT, no rifle maker will delierately seek to make autoloader chambers on the tight side of what SAAMI says so the common advice to always use SB dies with all autos is so untrue as to be meaningless. Unless we actually NEED it there is no automatic advantage to buying/using SB dies...it's just as Sierra says. It's not true because Sierra said it, Sierra said it because it's true. ??

 

[PCCUSNRET]

Maybe we should just do a poll to see how many folks actually own guns that require the use of a SB die. I only have 4 223's and only one of them requires the use of a SM die set. However, I have a friend that only has one 223 and some LC (military) rounds resized with a FL die will not work in his gun. I would never recommend that a SB be used on a regular basis, but I feel there is a need for these dies. I run all Military .308 and 223 through the SB die the first time I resize it. After fired once in my guns I no longer use the SB die.

 

[GW Staar]

I certainly won't disagree with that, but it isn't the question. The question is if small base dies are "needed" to load for an auto, as well as Waywatchers assertion that they are "correct" for loading for autos. There seems to be some strong opinions on both sides of the debate.

I don't think you an I disagree about that much then. Only that the "question" can't be answered by a simple yes or no. Depends on the gun/chamber.

As for Waywatchers "correct"ness, I also think that's going a bit far. What is correct is what loads in your gun without malfunctions in chambering, going into battery, or firing, whether or not the brass lasts for 3 loads or 20.

Still the questions of gimmickry & case overworking were presented as arguments against S.B. dies....and I do disagree with that.

Consider these quotes from Dillon's Sales manager:

small-based dies is mostly a marketing description. Any modern reputable die maker offers dies that size a case to fit a minimum-spec chamber. Before doing anything else, size a case and see if it fully chambers, the bolt locks completely, and the case easily extracts. Often this requires running the size die down not just until it touches the shellplate, but up to 1/4-1/2 turn beyond that, to take all the play out of the linkage, toolhead, etc. A headspace case cage makes it easier to adjust the size die, as it substitutes for your chamber, and indicates where maximum and minimum headspace are.

All Dillon rifle dies are small-based, with a carbide expander ball.

http://www.dillonprecision.com/Dillon_223_rem_sizing_die-98-14-311.htmhttp://www.dillonprecision.com/Small_Base_Dies-98-15-700.htm

Gimmicks too?

 

[Walkalong]

I don't think you an I disagree about that much then. Only that the "question" can't be answered by a simple yes or no. Depends on the gun/chamber.

I'll go along with that.

Gimmicks, sales techniques. Is there a difference? *scratches head*

 

[Walkalong]

Consider these quotes from Dillon's Sales manager:


Quote:
small-based dies is mostly a marketing description. Any modern reputable die maker offers dies that size a case to fit a minimum-spec chamber. Before doing anything else, size a case and see if it fully chambers, the bolt locks completely, and the case easily extracts. Often this requires running the size die down not just until it touches the shellplate, but up to 1/4-1/2 turn beyond that, to take all the play out of the linkage, toolhead, etc. A headspace case cage makes it easier to adjust the size die, as it substitutes for your chamber, and indicates where maximum and minimum headspace are.

I believe my posts agree with all of that, except that RCBS makes two different sizers.

 

[GW Staar]

I'll go along with that.

Gimmicks, sales techniques. Is there a difference? *scratches head*

Definition of Gimmick:

In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature.

In my mind a gimmick is only one of many sales techniques. There are many sales techniques that are not gimmicks (useless or irrelevant features). Product differentiation comes by many methods. Adding choices not offered by others is the one relevant here: you get a small base sizer similar to Dillons, or if you aren't a "sloppy loader" or you don't have a chamber that requires it, you have the choice to get RCBS's "regular" sizer that works the brass even less.

Maybe its the conservative in me, but offering both a sizer and a small base sizer and describing them accurately (as RCBS does)
seems more honest to the customer, than the Dillon plan: offering ONE sizer, a small base one no less, again for the obvious purpose of preventing less skilled reloaders from having problems, and therefore less callbacks for Dillon, ...and marketing-wise keeping that fact very low key to escape the ire of the reloaders who think such dies over work the brass.

I'm not Dillon-bashing either...because I happen to think there's nothing at all wrong with Dillon's dies....or RCBS small-base dies either, particularly the "AR" sets that include the taper crimp seater.

 

[Walkalong]

OK. To me gimmick was just another sales pitch. I understand your point.

I like to taper crimp my AR ammo that is just plinking/blasting ammo. Target ammo is another story. Naturally I just skip the crimp then.

I think the AR set is a brilliant sales tactic.

Tactic, not gimmick. Better?

 

[cfullgraf]

Well, this thread has confirmed the opinion on small base dies that I have come to.

Question: Are small base dies needed?

Answer: It depends, sometimes yes and sometimes no. A definite maybe. And, just when you think you have the required conditions for the need of small base dies figured out, a new one comes around that negates all the previous requirements.

It is enough to make your head spin. I think i am going to take an aspirin.

Good discussion though.

 

[fguffey]

Again, in the glossary of terms, Speers for one, a small base die is a very good full length sizer die or at least on the low end of specifications, but who here can measure a die, sized case or chamber, the M1 Garand came with a larger chamber, meaning it was designed to shoot the same ammo as the M1917, 03, and 03A3, larger chamber??? larger by .00029 to aid in extraction, chambering could have been an afterthought.



And I have small base dies, when compared with some full length sizer dies the difference is less than .0005 thousands, when compared to other full length sizer dies, the difference is difficult to distinguish, me? nothing chambers with difficulty, I measure the chamber first, when cutting a chamber I start with a short chamber, to size cases for a short chamber I use the full length sizer die, standard shell holder with a .125 deck height and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

My favorite die is the forming/trim die.

F. Guffey

 

[Woody3]

wow! Lots of information to process. I think for now I'm just going to get a regular set of dies. If those don't work then I'll figure out what I'm doing wrong. If it turns out I'm doing nothing wrong then I'll have to spend more money. Lol

Thanks for all the input.
Woody


Keep your head low and your powder dry.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

i load all my ammo for ar15s ar10s and ruger minis with small based dies. Is it nessisary. Thats debateable but ive run into trouble with brass fired out of one gun not functioning in another and i have many ars and am not going to seperate ammo. I also used once fired range brass as im not about to buy new brass. I shoot them to much. Sb dies and triming after every firing are just insurance to get absolute reliability something that is more important in an ar then a tiny bit of accuracy or brass life. they are guns that i depend on to possibly defend my family and dependability is the first priority and ive seen absolutely no downside to using them. My more accurate ars have no problem shoot well under an inch at a 100 yards using ammo loaded with sb dies.

 

[zeke]

Have alot of range pick up 223 brass. Used standard dies and had problems in a Bushmaster carbine. Now use a small base die on all brass not from my own rifle. This ensures the rounds work in standard mil spec, wylde or cz chamber.

Another story when just reloading brass fired from same type of rifle. The small base die is not a "gimmick"