RCBS small base dies

[fguffey]

"The small base die is not a "gimmick"

I agree but the difference and or need lies with the reloaders ability to determine if another die is necessary, again, I have small base dies, some go back to BAR dies. When measuring a chamber for sizing to fit I use the versatile full length sizer die to size cases from short chamber to chambers with .016 thousands head space.

There is something about the cone shape of of the case the reloader has trouble with, my favorite die is the forming/trim die. Complaints about having been fired in a MG? One of my favorite cases are all the cases that will not chamber in my chamber because the diameter is too large or the length is too long, if a case is too small? I have to fire them, another difference, I measure before and after, I do not wait until the case will not chamber, when the case will not chamber I know why, I measured before and after.

The forming die forms 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases, that is more brass movement that sizing an MG fired case to minimum length/full length sizing without effort, so when purchasing another die for what ever reason I wonder why a forming die is never an option, and it is written on a form everyday the difficulty is sizing cases that were fired in another chamber, and again, cases fired in trashy old chambers are among my favorite cases.

Then all the practical rules no longer apply when the reloader believes the case is not fully grown until is has been fired 5 times, RCBS 'X' type dies are to be used with cases that are trimmed +.020thousands, not easy to get a reloader to think but bench resters claim the case becomes stable and stops growing after 5 firings, and I wonder if by the time the 'X' die sized case is fired 5 times does the case become stable or does it stop getting longer because of the 'X' die.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

but bench resters claim the case becomes stable and stops growing after 5 firings

There is a great deal of difference in case that are barely (And I do mean barely) sized to fit tight necked chambers vs full length sizing with expander balls, and especially full length sizing with a small base die for standard chambers. But yes, Benchrest cases, which are mostly Lapua, which is really tough brass, quit lengthening fairly soon vs the average case being FL sized and fired in average chambers.

 

[Slamfire]

People who shoot bolt rifles get used to reloading practices that can best be described as sloppy.

If you want to improve your feed and extraction reliability in a semi auto, you should use small base dies.

Breech friction will cause feed and extraction problems in semi automatic mechanisms. These are issues that bolt gunners don't deal with. Bolt guns have massive cocking cams and sloppy reloaders get used to beating the bolt handle down, and beating the bolt handle up, with wood blocks. And think nothing of it. In a gas gun, fat cases will jam the mechanism in an instant.

I own a number of Wilson cartridge headspace gages. They cost about $25.00. These work great in setting up your dies to size the case to SAAMI lengths. These gages are also oversize between the shoulder and the base, so you can drop a fired case in the gage and roughly measure the headspace of your rifle.

I also have reamer cut gages. I have asked the gunsmiths who chamber my match rifles to use their chambering reamers and cut me a dimensionally correct chamber from a barrel stub. I can use this gage to tell me if my ammunition is too fat as well as being too long.

I now can gage brass in a virtual chamber. This has lead me to the use of small base dies. In the attached I found two huge fired WRA 68 cases. No idea what they were fired in but based on their size I would assume a military chamber. One would drop all the way in the Wilson gage, but neither would drop in the reamer cut gage.

After sizing with a standard Lee sizing die, one case would not drop all the way in the reamer cut gage. After sizing with a Redding small base die, the other case would drop in the reamer cut gage.

A couple of caveats, one is that you must set up a small base die with a cartridge headspace gage or you will set the case shoulder back too much. I believe that is the original of all those ideas that small base dies oversize brass. They will if you don’t correct gage your die set up. The second caveat is that spray on lubes don’t have the lubricity necessary to small base size. Imperial sizing wax and RCBS water soluble work just fine in small base dies.

As for small base dies shortening brass life, not in my experience. I push the shoulders back about .003” and I have 308 brass that was fired 22 times without any case head separations. The life of these cases was determined by primer pocket expansion, brass flaws, case neck splits.


Wilson gage with new Winchester brass.




Once fired WRA 68, one drops in Wilson gage, the other won’t drop in reamer cut gage.




WRA 68 case sized in Lee sizing die, won't drop in reamer cut gage




WRA68 case sized in Redding small base die, drops in reamer cut gage

 

[fguffey]

"....so you can drop a fired case in the gage and roughly measure the head space of your rifle"

I would not boast of owning a gage that roughly measured anything, UNLESS! I had an agenda to promote something else, and that is not something I am not likely to do, and, it is not fair, I have L.E. Wilson cases gages, the unfair part is: My L.E. Wilson case gages measure in thousands in + or - when used with a straight edge and the companion tool top the press, the feeler gage, yours measure "roughly".

And I make chamber gages, my chamber gages match my chambers, your smith's gage does not match your chamber and I know I am wasting my time suggesting he could do better.

"People who shoot bolt rifles get used to reloading practices that can best be described as sloppy"

Some reloaders, never learn how to reload, they acquire bad advise and habits, THEN! Some of them move on to "semi auto" s, Some start reloading for "semi auto" s with out learning the skill, techniques and methods, then? They spend more time talking about their new dies, gadgets and gages than they do using them. So, the pecking order is bench resters, "semi auto" ers then the bolt gunners, I do not for a minute believe any of that, I do believe "semi auto" ers should learn to reload before they start reloading.

As Walkalone just said there is no correlation between firing a case to form and then neck size 5 times and trimming a case .020 thousands then firing and sizing with an 'X' die 5 times and a bench rester firing a case 5 times even though RCBS in their instructions 'IMPLY' by the time the case is fired 5 + times it becomes stable, and the very next question ask is "If I use an 'X' type die do I still have to trim". Same with the colet/wedge dies, once wedged at the top the case can not get longer, no one knows what is happening between the neck and head of the case but like magic, trimming is a thing of the past, and as they say, "You just gotta get yourself one of them".

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

I do not get all giggly over Lapua brass.

"There is a great deal of difference in case that are barely (And I do mean barely) sized to fit tight necked chambers vs full length sizing with expander balls, and especially full length sizing with a small base die for standard chambers. But yes, Benchrest cases, which are mostly Lapua, which is really tough brass, quit lengthening fairly soon vs the average case being FL sized and fired in average chambers"

I was not referring to two different standards, we have reloaders in the claims department that measure test cases after each firing and record the results as the case becoming fully grown, we have others that fire once and neck size 5+ times then recommend full length sizing to start over. For me there is no stretch between bench resters case growth, firing 6 times by fire forming and neck sizing 5 times and RCBS 'X' cases trimmed .020+ thousands and then fired 5 times, again this could be one of those 'too many thought to keep up with at once, reminds me of the Sargent's immunity, there are some disease that they can not get because they are Sargents? To me? That does not make sense.

Lapua? I do not give a brand of brass an exemption, brass will not forgive me for mistakes, I do not take liberties with with brass because it is expensive and the worst of all the features I could think of would be tough, in a bind brass will stretch, if, when in a bind, brass does not stretch it will tare apart, brass that is the same thickness, weight, consistent in weight from lot to lot sounds expensive, anyhow the brass I use has forgiven me for mistakes, not because the brass was tough but because it was not tough and had I fired those cases enough to toughen them up by firing them until they were full grown the case would have been work hardened and by the then lost the ability to conform, and again, time is a factor, I have fire formed 30 Gibbs cases with loads that are/would be considered at or above maximum loads for the 30 Gibbs after the cases were formed.

Again, without having a clue of the chambers dimension the reloader seems to be on a tread mill, purchasing dies is like purchasing coffee, caff, decaff, half caff, regular, light, black and espresso.

Again, my favorite die is the forming/trim die, it moves a lot of brass without effort, and those that fire auto type rifles claim something happens to the case between firing and ejection and want a special die, without the ability to measure a chamber the reloader does not know if their chamber is 'generous' or if the case was extracted with pressure, or if the bolt went back so fast the rear of the case was pulled out before the front of the case was ready to leave.

The 308 W forming die is the most versitle for the creative reloader, because, it is short, being short makes it as handy as a big, short, fat seater die.


F. Guffey

 

[Slamfire]

And I make chamber gages, my chamber gages match my chambers, your smith's gage does not match your chamber and I know I am wasting my time suggesting he could do better.

Hey Guffey:

Not everyone has the mechanical talents or equipment you have. Of course, you can make chamber gages from barrel stubs for your customers, just like Gene Barnett made me 308 and 30-06 reamer cut gages. Gene used the exact same reamers he used to cut the chambers on the barrels he made for me.

Compass Lake made me a reamer cut gage using the same Wlyde reamer he used on the space gun barrel he installed. It cost me about $35.00 and he used a barrel stub.

As for the Wilson gages, you can drop in headspace gages and they correspond (as close as an eyeball and a straight edge can tell) exactly to the Go and No Go ledges on the Wilson gage. Of course the Wilson gage is fat in-between.

Gages are great. Used to be you had to set up your dies by bumping the shoulder, trying the case in your rifle, then readjusting your die, then bumping the shoulder again, trying the case again in your rifle. After I got gages I found that the old technique seldom if ever produced a case which was between Go and No Go.

I have found differences in sized headspace based on the chamber the brass was fired in, differences in brass (I assume workhardness), so I regularly check the headspace of my brass and adjust the dies accordingly.

This is the difference between Go and No Go. It is only .006" or so.

Which is why people should use gages to set up their small base dies.

 

[Walkalong]

Yawn.

I'm with Slamfire on this one. As he posted, 99% of reloaders can not make their own gauges. For them, the good old headspace gauge as sold by Wilson is the way to go. More people should use them to load for auto's. They could answer their own questions as to whether they need a small base die or not. Yes, this is assuming their chambers are within specs, as most are. If folks also use some sort of tool to measure how far they are moving the shoulder, they have even more control.

 

[GW Staar]

Yawn.

I'm with Slamfire on this one. As he posted, 99% of reloaders can not make their own gauges. For them, the good old headspace gauge as sold by Wilson is the way to go. More people should use them to load for auto's. They could answer their own questions as to whether they need a small base die or not. Yes, this is assuming their chambers are within specs, as most are. If folks also use some sort of tool to measure how far they are moving the shoulder, they have even more control.

Me too. With military-style gas semi-autos its damn important to make sure your bolt closes completely into battery. AR's have been known to explode when that is ignored, and people have been killed or hurt. I can't machine anything either. So I have Wilson Gauges, RCBS Mic gauges, and Stoney Point/Hornady gauges to make absolutely sure such reloading is safe.


From a manufacturer's view on reloading for gas guns.

 

[fguffey]

and like many other pieces of equipment designed to protect the user, if not worn when needed the effort is wasted, no matter how much equipment a reloader surrounds himself with if he does not know how to use the equipment or understand it's use and purpose, owning the equipment will not overcome not knowing.

More times than not when I see pictures posted of the gun that was rendered scrap the caption below the picture goes something like "Must have been a double charge of a reduced load" And again I am not a fan of reduced loads and the person that renders a gun scrap is not going to tell the truth, the only experience I have with tooooo heavy a load, Bruce Hodgdon came to the house, he traced the problem to a friend of his named Sisk, no one made an excuse, he did not ask for one, he simply laid it out.

F. Guffey

 

[GW Staar]

and like many other pieces of equipment designed to protect the user, if not worn when needed the effort is wasted, no matter how much equipment a reloader surrounds himself with if he does not know how to use the equipment or understand it's use and purpose, owning the equipment will not overcome not knowing.

Truer words were never spoken, and this corollary must follow: Any reloader who will not or can't not learn how and when to use his tools intelligently ought not to reload at all.

More times than not when I see pictures posted of the gun that was rendered scrap the caption below the picture goes something like "Must have been a double charge of a reduced load" And again I am not a fan of reduced loads and the person that renders a gun scrap is not going to tell the truth, the only experience I have with tooooo heavy a load, Bruce Hodgdon came to the house, he traced the problem to a friend of his named Sisk, no one made an excuse, he did not ask for one, he simply laid it out.

F. Guffey

Not absolutely sure if I understand your point in the second paragraph, but I know this: If an AR goes off out of battery, it don't matter if it is a perfect charge, does it? That's a lot of force 6 inches from your head.

 

[Walkalong]

Truer words were never spoken, and this corollary must follow: Any reloader who will not or can't not learn how and when to use his tools intelligently ought not to reload at all.

Yep, no amount of equipment can save someone who is careless or just doesn't take the time to learn how to use it.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I use a small base die because cases that are sized in a standard die, will not chamber in my remmy 700 sps tactical 308. With the small base die, they glide right in.

 

[rg1]

I've loaded for as many as 8 AR-15's by different manufacturers, 3 M1 Garands, a Remington 742 in 30-06, a Browning 30-06 BAR, and used my reloads in others AR's and have seen no use or need for a small based sizing die. A case gauge to measure headspace I do highly recommend when setting up your sizing die.

 

[fguffey]

and I went to the firing range, 3 tables down from me a shooter with an AR was in a bind, a bullet in the chamber believed to be a jam with the charger pulled back about to chamber another and 'I STOPPED HIM'!!! He had new ammo, he had a new rifle that wanted for nothing and only had room on the front for a handle and light, and had sights mounted on a tilt with a scope that did not know what rifle it was mounted on, all morning long for him was a waste, he did not have one hole on paper and his target board was wall papered. If he had managed to chamber another round and if the bullet was pointed and struck the primer of the chambered case I suspect someone would have been at fault.

I stopped what I was doing, removed two cases between the bolt face and shoulder of the chamber and started over by chambering another round from the magazine, pulled the trigger "CLICK" I then moved the bolt to the rear, no ejection/extraction, I tilted the muzzle up and the round fell out, NO FIRING PIN DENT!!!!

I went over some of the success he was having, I went over his failures he was having, I had him pack up his Wolf ammo and take it back to where he purchased it, he informed me where he purchased the rifle and ammo and I said "That is too bad" Anyhow, I gave him a phone number and address/location, waiting to hear from him.

Again, I am sure a picture tells the story, the one I remember was that of a Weatherby 257, it was feed a steady diet of reduced loads and the shooter guessing "Must have been a double charge" and I am not a fan of reduced loads and do not believe it was the last reduced load that rendered the rifle scrap but all the reduced loads fired in it before the last one, and before the rifle lay in a heap it handled like a doll buggy, nothing before then all of a sudden without warning, well I do not expect you to get the point...and there were two other AR shooters at the range complain.

F. Guffey

 

[ranger335v]

SB dies are great IF you need a SB die. Otherwise, they don't add anything useful.

Cases get stuck in sizer dies for one reason only; case sizing lube. Either not enough or not properly applied.

 

[918v]

They add .001" of additional clearance which improves reliability.