RE: My question concerning the 357 lever action rifles

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KimberLover

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I am a fan of the 38 super.
I have two 38 super 1911's, one Kimber and one Colt.
I also have 2 model 60-14 S&W 357's and one 686 S&W 357 that I shoot 38 super in.
Now to my question....
Has anyone that owns a 357 lever action tried to chamber a 38 super?
The only issue is: will the ejector remove the shell?
Firing it is not necessary, but I would like to know if the ejector will grab the rim and eject the shell before I order a 357 rifle. The rim is slightly narrower than the 357 and 38.
Any help will be appreciated.
I am not interested in any advice about shooting a 38 super in the 357 as I am careful about my choice of firearms to shoot the 38 super in. I have put hundreds of 38 super rounds down range with the above mentioned pistols.
You may ask why I choose to shoot 38 supers instead of the 357, well the cost of 357 is nearly double what 38 super is and the 38 super packs just about the same whollop as the 357. The 38 super is my choice of light weight, short, and powerful bullets.
 
If the case is the same diameter it should work just fine. I have shot a lot of .357 handloads in my Marlin that I would not shoot in a pistol so I don't think you would overpressure the rifle chamber with a .38 Super.
 
Steel horse rider.....

I know the 357 will stand up to the pressure, but I need to know if the rim on the Auto 38 super will be grabbed by the rifle ejector.
I had a pistol that the 38 super fell through the cylinder which eleminated that gun from firing the shell.
 
Lever actions rely on the rim to interrupt cartridges feeding from the magazine. And trust me they are sensitive to undersized rims.

Cases jumping past the interrupter will result in a jam of epic proportion.


You might get a ruger 77/357 to play otherwise your best bet would be an encore barrel




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KimberLover said:
The only issue is: will the ejector remove the shell?
Firing it is not necessary, but I would like to know if the ejector will grab the rim and eject the shell before I order a 357 rifle. The rim is slightly narrower than the 357 and 38.
Click to expand...

You mean the extractor right? Marlins have a spring loaded ejector that is held in place by the bolt, and a bolt mounted extractor. Regardless, I'll bet that the extractor would grab the rim of the .38 Super. However, forgive my ignorance but will a .38 Super fit in a .357 Mag chamber? According to SAAMI, .38 Super has a .384" cylindrical case and the .357 Mag has a .3809" to .3800" tapered chamber.

I have some .38 Super "pick ups" from USPSA matches at home along with a Marlin chambered in .357 Mag ... looks like I'll have to try this when I get home.
 
You need to get it into the chamber before you worry about extraction or ejection.
38 super COAL is too short to feed reliably from a 92 win or 94 marlin action, heck some of them won't feed specials with shorter OAL.
 
Well, according to the diagrams in my Lyman reloading book the Super rounds are fatter by .005. That's a little more than noted by 1858 above. It's enough that there is a good possiblity that the Super cartridges will wedge tight into the .357Mag chamber.

The rim diameter and thickness is also a lot less. So there's going to be a headspacing issue as well. Like .008 worth of back and forth play. That's an unacceptable amount by any normal standards.

The chamber mouths on these rifles are also slightly flared to ease the entry of the bullet and casing into the chamber. Enough of a flare that it's quite likely that you'll be headspacing off the extractor hook rather than the rim for the firing pin striking the primer. And that's not really ever a good way to do things. It's hard on the extractor hook and generally leads to broken extractors long before any normal lifespan for the part.

As for the actual extractor hooking the rim I don't see it as a big issue. Oh sure, the hook will have to snap deeper than normal so it engages the rim fully in the groove. But if the extractor spring doesn't go deep enough to adequitely hook the rim then it wouldn't be a big deal to modify it so it engages the rim groove fully. But will it work? Hard to say since the regular ammo doesn't need to have it set that deep by design. So it would likely be a rifle by rifle basis if it works or if it doesn't.

Where the whole thing will fail is that the face of the bolt is recessed for the diameter and thickness of the .357 rim. The thinner and smaller .38Super will be very loose in both ways.

Oh, and let's not forget the guide rails that guide the round up and into the chamber. The small size of the nearly rimless .38Super casing is more than likely going to wedge between the rails instead of being guided and lifted up off the elevator by the ramped gates in the rails. So there's an EXCELLENT chance for troubles in that part of the cycle.

All in all with the shortness and diameter differences it's highly likely that you would have less than ideal results. Most certainly you would not be able rapidly and smoothly cycle the lever. Instead if it works at all each round would need to be worked up into the chamber with a lot of back and forth encouragement and likely a few well chosen words that your parents taught you never to say.

Then there's the whole issue of what happens if the round does fit. There's a LONG jump from the case mouth to the beginning of the rifling where the bullet would seal off the gases. Like about 0.4 inch. I don't know of many bullet shapes that would not be flying freely without support for at least a short ways. So the bullet is likely going to wedge a little sideways often as not as it enters the rifling. So accuracy could well be an issue even if the round did chamber

Up this way .38Super is pretty much a reloader's round. The cost of shooting this ammo is high enough and it's rare enough that everyone I know of who has guns chambered in .38Super is very much into reloading.

As for the cost of .357Mag? Yeah, factory ammo IS expensive. But if you reload them the cost is down around .17 cents a round ($8.50/50) up this way. Down in the US the cost to reload .357Mag will fall again once the current panic subsides and bullets, primers and powder become widely availalbe again. And you could be reloading your .38Super for the same cost since they could share bullets, powder and primers.
 
The chamber dimensions are a very valid concer. I have several .357's that will not chamber a .38 super. Are lever rifle chambers cut tight? I don't know.
 
The chamber on my own Rossi isn't tight. But it's far from wobbly enough to ensure that it would accept a .004 to .005 larger round. At that point it's a good chance that it would be squeaky snug. And at that point we'd be back to the situation where a worn chambering reamer may be cutting a slightly undersize chamber which is OK for a .357 case but tight for the oversized Super case.
 
However, forgive my ignorance but will a .38 Super fit in a .357 Mag chamber?
Click to expand...
Yes and No, depending apon the ammo and the gun. Certain types of factory 38 Super (like Winchester and Magtech) will fit and fire in most modern Colt and S&W .357 Magnum revolvers, and in some of the .38 Special guns as well. I would not recommend it in the .38 Specials versions. My 1970 vintage Model 60 will not chamber them while my 1990 vintage Model 60 will.

Other brands of ammo, such as Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, and Aquila will not will chamber in the revolvers. Like the OP, I have fired 38 Super in .357 Magnum revolvers and they work fine.
 
stiab said:
Yes and No, depending apon the ammo and the gun. Certain types of factory 38 Super (like Winchester and Magtech) will fit and fire in most modern Colt and S&W .357 Magnum revolvers, and in some of the .38 Special guns as well. I would not recommend it in the .38 Specials versions. My 1970 vintage Model 60 will not chamber them while my 1990 vintage Model 60 will.

Other brands of ammo, such as Remington, Federal, Fiocchi, and Aquila will not will chamber in the revolvers. Like the OP, I have fired 38 Super in .357 Magnum revolvers and they work fine.
Click to expand...
Good point, i did not think about the ammo variances. I usually have Remington on hand, maybe that is why i rarely find a .357 that will chamber .38 super.
 
I never expected such great replies

I am impressed!
I have always believed that if you ask and listen someone will give you the answer.
1858: You are correct, the extractor was my main concern and yes the 38 super should fit. I have found that Remington is a little fussy but works well in the 1911 Colt chambered for the 38 super.
BCRider: You obviously have done your homework. I was impressed with your knowledge.
Firesky101: Remington is very difficult to chamber in the Smiths. I can say that you are corrrect in emphasizing not to shoot a 38 super in a 38 or 38 special.
I have seen a S&W 44 explode after firing an over charged round and it was not pretty. MY shooting partner has had two different rounds jam as they exited the cylinder of his S&W 44 magnum. They were old Remingtons that he had picked up at a local dealer. Several of the bullets had cracked cases. I'm telling you that was scary! He was not too happy but he was lucky enough that the rounds blocked the cylinder from turning. You can imagine what could have happened had that cylinder have turned and the bullet wedged in the barrel.
CraigC: I was on a quest for answers and it looks like I came to the right place.
GatorJames: You can find 38 Super on J&Gsales.com for $380.00/1000
Most 357's are more than that..
Stiab: Great answer, great answer! That puts me on tract, but I was hoping for some response on a Henry.
Firesky101: Try some CCI and other brands. As I said earlier, Remington is a little on the fat side. I have a Dan wesson that the 38 super falls thru the cylinder. Such a shame that the extractor is so loose it will not grab the small rim. My dealer is trying to sell it for me now.
I will read all of your replies over and over until I get a feel for which Lever action will do the job.
MavRacer: I'll have to say, you may be right about the feed problem that I failed to pick up on. That may end my quest for a 357 Lever action.
I again am impressed with all of you that came forth to help.
I can't wait to hear what 1858 finds out about chambering a 38 super in his 357 rifle!!!!
Gerald
 
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See, I just have this idea that if the gun is designed for something, perhaps it's best to use the ammo it was designed for. Of course, .22 shorts work in some .22LRs, .38 specials in .357, .44 special in .44mag, but beyond that, stick with the ammo the gun was designed for. Besides, what can a .38 super do that a .357 magnum can't do better?

I know you don't wanna hear that, but it's just simple logic and my attitude on the subject. I'm thinkin' brass wouldn't fare well in the chamber, either. I handload, so that would be a factor for me. I wonder, if you really want one, if Steves Guns could modify a 92 for .38 Super? Proabably suit you better. You might shoot him an e-m query.

www.stevesguns.com
 
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Having owned several different pistol caliber leveraction carbines and experienced firsthand how picky they can be with the ammunition they're intended for I'm 100% confident 38super will cause a "Marlin jam" of Biblical proportion.

I guess my technical input on feeding from the magazine wasn't what the op wanted to hear as he's blatantly glossing over this EXTREMELY KEY flaw in his plan.

38 super might work in a single shot such as my rolling block (even has a .355" bore) there's no way it will EVER work in the finely balanced and tuned to a case length mechanism that is a pistol caliber lever action. To even THINK its possible just shows the OP'S total lack of experience with the platform being discussed.






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KimberLover, I sorted through my box of range "pick ups" and found one .38 Super. It's a nickel plated Starline case that looks like it's been reloaded. The case measures .387" near the extractor groove (.003" over SAAMI) and .381" at the case mouth (.003" under SAAMI). I dropped it into the chamber of my Marlin .357 Mag and with a little pressure I could only chamber the round as far as is shown in the second photo below. It wouldn't chamber any deeper even with firm pressure. The extractor worked fine and snapped into the extractor groove without issue (see third photo). Extraction seems to work fine too. I was able to insert the round through the loading gate and into the magazine tube, work the lever and "chamber" the round. I even tried inserting two .357 Mag rounds, the .38 Super round followed by two more .357 Mag rounds and was able to feed (at speed) all five rounds out of the magazine and into the chamber without issue. The bolt face on the Marlin is flat so no issue there either.

What does all of this mean? Well, it's just a small amount of data for you to do with as you wish.

38_super_01.jpg

38_super_02.jpg

38_super_03.jpg
 
CraigC said:
Obviously but that doesn't answer my question.
Click to expand...

Because it's there. I have a friend who went to great pains, labor and no little expense to build a Model 94 Winchester in 357SIG. He got it to work, but never got it to match 357 Mag ballistics out of the longer barrel. Some folks just have to have a quest.

There's a company in Czechoslovakia who will build you a Winchester '73 clone in 40S&W or 45ACP. They'd probably do one in 38 Super if you had the $$$$.
 
^^^ A '94 Winchester in .356 Sig? That is a cute little round, but too $$$ for me. A '73 in .45ACP? Now yur talking!
I want to see a return of the Timberwolf carbine in .45ACP.
 
RE: 1858's excellent effort....

Now that is what I call a good, no great repy.
The pics were very well done.
That 38 super may have been similar to a box of Remington I bought recently at Gander Mtn. None would chamber in any of my S&W's, but worked fine in the Colt and Kimber.
That one box was the only time I found anything that would not work as expected.
I would like to send you some of my bullets to try once more.
Your effort did answer one unknown.....would the lever action cycle the ammo.
This was one of the items I missed when I started to ask questions.
1858, if you will buy a box of CCI because they make a nearly perfect round, I'll pay for them.
You might be impressed with the results.
Just think, if your magazine held 10 357's, how many 38 supers would it hold?
I know the ballistics on the bullets and there is very little difference depending where you look.
RE: rwdale's reply: I for one would not stand at 50' and let you fire any of my three S&W's loaded with 38 supers at me. I am grouping 4-5 inches with my 686 smith 4 inch offhand. Oh! by the way, as to experience.....71 years old, Machinist out of tech school in the 60's. Have my own lathe and milling machine. Getting rusty, but not senile yet! Sometimes one has to think out of the box to advance himself!
Re: Val27, you can bet I have a few $$$ or I'd not be into guns. I just recently sold 7 AR's that I built and they all grouped a quarter at 100yds at rest. Three were sold to police officers. Two had piston drives. By the way, I zeroed the scopes on the bench with lasers and another item I made.
RE: Stiab, thank you for that link, you are obviously way ahead of me on this 38 super search. I read you article on the SW Forum of which I am a member. Great work!
1858......Where do we go from here? Is it worth finding the answer? I'm game, are you? How do we connect? I can say: Boy! I wish I had your lever action rifle in my hands right now, but I'd probably drool all over it.
 
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