Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

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OP posits a theory re: .22 as a carry weapon

Other posters show major fallacies in that theory

OP says, no biggie, my life, not your problem, if I live, I live - if I die....

QED: OP doesn't care whether lives or dies, then why carry anything?

Ron in Texas
 
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I don't recall the OP say that he didn't care. But I have not read every post. Nor have I said that if you are thinking my recent couple of posts are the OP's which boiled down to selective carry based on perceptions of danger. Obviously, I could guess wrong. I might pull out in front of a tractor trailer in a car tomorrow because I didn't see it. That's life.

But to your point.
QED: OP doesn't care whether lives or dies, then why carry anything?

I don't know anyone who doesn't care whether they live or die other than depressed suicidal people. But choosing to carry a 22 handgun is not suicidal nor is it an indication of being depressed. Maybe a person is just comfortable with the 22 and that is what they want to carry?

By the way, I don't carry a 22.
 
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I would rather have a big bullet also, But I still haven't found anyone who is willing to let me shoot at them with my .22LR.pocket gun at 50 yards yet! So let him shoot what he wants. I didn't read all the posts, but that is all some can shoot!
 
There are several small,light yet seemingly powerful pistols on the market now. There`s a 2 shot derringer that`ll fire either a. 45 long colt or a .410 shotgun shell.I also saw an ad for a Heizer Double Tap the mfr. claims to be the smallest, lightest .45ACP concealed carry pistol on the market.
Seems to me in the wild west days many men carried some type of 2 shot derringer in their vest pocket either as a backup or even their only gun.You could access it while seated if your`e wearing a vest. Granted these don`t have a lot of range, but if someone`s attempting to rob you ,threatening with a knife or club they`re probably within 5 yds (or less).
Those .410 loads that have both bbs and flat disks might do more than just make the bad guy mad, the .45 long colt`s got stopping power and a .45 ACP at close range can do a lot of damage.
2 hits with one of these might be better than more hits with a .22 or .22 mag even with perfect placement.
Slicer , I doubt you would be interested, but it`s a suggestion if someone`s looking for a small, powerful gun that`s easily carried.
 
OP says, no biggie, my life, not your problem, if I live, I live - if I die....

QED: OP doesn't care whether lives or dies, then why carry anything?

OP (slicer22) never said that. It was another poster with 22 in his handle that seemed to say that. Maybe you confused the two.

OP (slicer22) said he was convinced by replies that the .22 was inadequate and a 9mm would be a better choice.
 
Years ago when I bow hunted jackrabbits at Edwards AFB I've seen more than one run away with a broadhead arrow right through the middle of their body. Does that mean a 50lb bow and an arrow with a steel broadhead is inadequate for jackrabbits?
I believe a person should carry whatever makes them feel comfortable. Yeah a .22 isn't the best but one can do the job, whether it does or not there are people actually living out long lifespans with no firearms so the carrying of a .22lr isn't really an instant death sentence as a few might think.
The original poster might have been a wee bit on the controversial side but that was what he posted and it wasn't an attack on anyone else. Some of the opposing opinions seem a bit harsh for a forum named "The High Road".
 
A poor caliber and/or gun choice won't be more effective just because the person making that ill-advised choice "feels comfortable" about it.
 
OP essentially admitted that 1st post was a "troll" and quite deliberately so, "for effect"
and was amply rewarded, as troll posts usually are, however labeled as pretense of "other". High Road posts deserve High Road answers, and troll posts pretty much know what to expect, and I think he knew that, right up front. Pretty HR overall , IMO, the many sincere posts in this very long thread, given the initial character of of initial post.

But OP has long since acknowledged that the obviously dominant opinions regarding choice of 22 rimfire vs centerfire have many and obvious merits.

The more appropriate topic to continuation of thread topic (seems to me), is his revised focus on pocket rocket pistolas vs more 'shootable' choices, solely for ease of EDC.
Pretty much everybody agrees that misses (and/or FTF) don't count, and that hits don't always count as much as we would like them to, irrespective of caliber.

It still appears OP has extreme little experience in handgun shooting, and worries a lot more about carrying attributes than shooting attributes. Face it, snubbies and pocket rockets can be great choices for those who have a broader range of experience and/or training with multiple handguns. But for the newbie ???

'Derringers' have always had their place, and always will, but they have always had very obvious limitations, and always will. One or two shot SA versions of 100 years ago, and even the best of today's 7-shot 'derringers' still share many of those same limitations.

Sometimes awareness, posture, attitude, and/or a loud sound will get it done, but most of us still prefer a CCW handgun to a compact pocket size airhorn. Because getting hits counts for more than anything else, and that is best done with the most gun size and weight that can be carried well, and shot well, by end-user.

In High Road fashion, we just might do better to encourage OP to learn to hit with something more shootable in centerfire, than the typical run of smallest and/or lightest. There are a ton of mid-weights to be had that carry quite easily, and are a lot easier to learn to hit with consistently than the shortest/lightest trendy stuff.

If we wish to offer further advise in HR fashion, (the harsher responses to 'troll post' already having been pretty well covered), we might ought push the topic in other directions.

Comments on 22LR for SD, nothing new has been said here, pro or con, that hasn't been said many times over.

PS
I do not doubt at all that there are members here who are exceptionally skilled with the sub-compact stuff, but do remember that OP is not you, OP is still a few rounds shy of Grand Master. If this was your 20-something son or daughter, looking for "my 1st CCW handgun", would you really suggest they go with the smallest/lightest centerfire carry gun they can fit in a pocket... or perhaps something other ??

(at least a few in this thread already have done that, but it seems to have been largely overlooked in all the same, old same old 22 rimfire for SD comments)
 
I am well aware of my own, as well as my occasional carry gun, the Beretta 21A in .22lr. limitations.

Many posters here have made some very good points. Points well taken.

I will continue to carry my mouse gun, with rounds that some claim will not dispatch a cotton tail. I always shot rabbits, and squirrels in the head, never had one do anything but DRT with a .22 rifle. Yes, am i well aware that a .22 in a rifle is not that same as in a short barrel mouse gun.

I will continue to practice monthly, and carry my little mouse gun with confidence.
 
revised CCW ideas after chat w/ police officer

Thanks again to all, this has been very instructive. Since my original post posited some rationalizations on CCW I feel it's not unwarranted to continue w/ a few final thoughts on those.

Thursday night I had occasion to chat w/ an off duty cop about carry, danger situations and such. He confirmed a key point from this thread: don't carry (much less pull) a gun for "deterrence." You pull a gun to shoot it, if your life, or someone else's, is clearly being threatened. Here in Texas it's legal to defend your property w/ deadly force (or even your neighbor's property), and the parasite may deserve it, but is it really worth it to shoot someone to save your wallet or guitar, &c, considering you'll be months in court dealing with the aftermath. (This is assuming a street encounter, not a home invasion.) He advised if in a danger situation, to prepare to draw; you may also warn the potential assailant that you are armed. Hopefully the shark will swim away.

And as many have noted here, if "deterrence" fails, and you must shoot, you're left w/ rimfire, and a small round. The PT-22 is cool, when it fires: I cleaned and oiled it pretty good but after +500 rounds it seems to be giving quite a few FTL's/hangups on loading, requiring manual push of the slide to round the chamber; or worse yet, FTE's, and jam-ups. It's capable when it's "on" of blasting out 8 quick shots. But I suppose even 4 or 5 .22 holes, assuming one could get that many hits, won't stop a berserker. And if he has a knife and is still charging, you've lost the fight.

Modern holsters are very neat, but for the moment I'm still favoring pocket. So a decent .380 looks like the way to go, until I can afford the Kimber Solo, or better yet, the Boberg (both are micro 9mm). But ThorinNNY, that Heizer is cool! http://heizerfirearms.com/default.htm
 
PT-22; not the best choice. Now that is a good observation Slicer. I have similar feelings about the Beretta 21A. It is not so much the caliber as a combination of the caliber and the guns; essentially reliability of both the ammo and firearm.

A better choice if you choose a 22LR is a revolver. After some practice and getting comfortable with the firearm, you eliminate the reliability element and are left with ammo choice.

The rimfire reliability issue (also feeding reliability for small autos) is I believe one of the main reasons the 25ACP has been chosen by some. I am not a fan and would rather have the 22LR, (but in a revolver). That's me however, and not what I would tell a new person considering daily carry of a handgun.

There is no question in my mind that there are better choices over a 22LR for daily carry for defensive reasons. Clearly most centerfire calibers are more effective if for no other reason than a larger hole is made versus the smaller 22 hole.

But some will choose a 22LR for defensive carry. I suspect it relates to the size of the weapon, lack of significant recoil, and the familiarity of the shooter with shooting 22's when they are younger and often shoot a lot with this caliber.

To the slight diversion on the thread that I think I caused.... I personally don't have the interest in practicing frequently with my carry gun (S&W M442) as I don't particularly enjoy shooting it at typical defensive distances. Sometimes 5 yds just seems a bit close to me when I could hit the target with a rock with some consistancy. I also realize affectionados will practice their draw and improving response time. That is their choice and in most cases they do it because they enjoy it. Great. I like having fun too.

As my handle would suggest, I REALLY like 22's and I might carry a 22 from time to time just because I can and have the freedom to choose what I want. There is certainly no lack of firearm choices under my direct control. I undestand the deficiencies from a caliber point of view. I don't recommend people carry a 22LR handgun for daily carry, but there are sometimes reasons why one might be selected. (Added; The best one of course is it's the only firearm you own and it beats throwing rocks.)

And if he has a knife and is still charging, you've lost the fight.

That is true. But it is also likely true with a 380 or 9mm. At very close ranges, an aggressor has the advantage. Truth is the aggressor almost always has the advantage as they have already made the decision to "fight" and the defensive person is still wondering what I can do to shoo that shark away and continue to go about my business.
 
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Hot thread . . . And one that is complicated too. It can become a little subjective when we say that .22 isn't enough, but maybe .32 is okay, or maybe .380 is okay.

Conversely saying you like bigger calibers, and then carrying a 9mm, strikes me as interesting too.

I think each of us makes some personal choices in what we carry, and I wonder what factors are derived from compromise, experience (both positive and negative), or whatever other factors.

There aren't many guns available that you can carry that meet everyone's requirement for perfection, yet there are so many that are probably very effective.

I wonder if this thread has opened up anyone's thoughts on what they carry and the inherent weaknesses of that platform.
 
As Oldfool said, maybe the better topic is whether to choose a small pocket sized handgun over a larger more easily mastered handgun whether it be in a 22 or something larger.

This is why many people suggest a S&W M17 or 617 over a smaller J-frame unless there are reasons for choosing a smaller sized revolver.

For me, the Glock M23 is hard to beat (in terms of size and caliber) if you like the feel of Glocks. But it is harder to conceal as in it takes some effort to get comfortable with the ways to carry a gun this size over a pocket sized handgun. This is why I choose a S&W M442 for my daily carry gun (when I carry). I actually carry two firearms when I have to go somewhere I know I shouldn't but still have to for job reasons. I started this practice (one concealed and one outside carry) after being in a position where I knew I was in a bad place and my defensive choices were very limited for a determined aggressor. As it worked out, nothing happened. In this particular case, I went as far as taking all of my money out of my wallet except $10 and hiding it. I normally carry considerably more cash than $10 because you never know when credit or debit cards will fail and I need to come up with a lot more quickly for say a motel, gas, or auto repair.

I have also in some cases brought along another set of eyes to watch my back in bad areas. Yes, it costs, but in those situations, safety over rules money.
 
And as many have noted here, if "deterrence" fails, and you must shoot, you're left w/ rimfire, and a small round.
I've watched this thread and as you say you've gotten some very good info.
It's good to see that any CCW is a compramise.
But I suppose even 4 or 5 .22 holes, assuming one could get that many hits, won't stop a berserker. And if he has a knife and is still charging, you've lost the fight.
two things one 4 or 5 .45 holes may not stop him.
and two that's still not an excuse to give up.
I've watched this thread and as you say you've gotten some very good info.
It's good to see that any CCW is a compramise.
 
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Thursday night I had occasion to chat w/ an off duty cop about carry, danger situations and such. He confirmed a key point from this thread: don't carry (much less pull) a gun for "deterrence." You pull a gun to shoot it, if your life, or someone else's, is clearly being threatened.

No, you pull a gun READY AND WILLING to shoot it in a life threatening situation.

You are not required to shoot just because you pull it.

What if the bad guy drops his weapon and turns to run away? Well, dang, you drew the gun, so now you just have to shoot him, right?

Or, you draw and shoot in one swift motion because he did NOT drop the weapon.

When you draw, you better be willing and able, nothing more or less
 
Slicer, I hope you pocket carry that Taurus in a holster that covers the trigger guard. You could reach for your car keys and quickly become a girl. That darn pocket lint still manges to get in my 21A. A monthly cleaning is in order. Not everyone here including myself is a Taurus fan. There is one in my safe, my wifes gun, she wanted it because its pink. I won't carry it because it is pink and Taurus.

22rimfire, you said you carry $10. just in case. I always have two $5's in my always empty left back pocket. It is throw down money. Most, if not all muggers are druggies. My theory is throw down the bills, it may give me 1. time to run. or 2. draw down on them with my carry weapon and hopefully go home without any further drama.
 
Great title for your thread. The fantasy is that you think you're well protected with a .22, and the reality is that you're not. There is a reason that SWAT teams don't carry Buckmarks. There is a reason the USMC doesn't use 10/22s--yes, their rifle is nominally a .22 caliber, but it's doing better than mach 3. The reason is that .22s don't reliably stop people in the circumstances that we are likely to face.

And, personal defense in an evil society equates to war HOW? How many folks have you personally shot with the said calibers? At what ranges? Were they intent on killing you with a rifle or were they in a parking lot not realizing they were picking on an armed citizen? Did they wanna be shot so that they might get to meet their 72 virgins or were they street punks who just wanted your money and thought it'd be easy? Were they wearing flack jackets or Fubu shorts? Where they armed with a knife, a Glock held sideways, or an AK? :rolleyes: The application makes a difference. I don't feel the need to carry my AK when I go to church. I'm well armed enough at the restaurant after the service with my NAA .22 mag. I shoot it well and I can make the shot if it ever becomes necessary, meanwhile, there's no bulges where folks in Sunday school might ask questions. Now, if I'm forced into combat, I'll take whatever uncle Sam issues and it's likely to be a rifle, not a personal defense concealment capable handgun.

I normally only carry a .38 or a 9mm +P. I don't arm up with a sawed off 12 gauge every day. I pocket carry so that I WILL HAVE the gun if I need it when I need it. My .45 does me no good at home.
 
Excellent point by David E. I fully agree. It's just an application of the rule,"don't point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot", not that you have to shoot.
 
Assuming I have the chance of surviving relatively unscathed... "I'd" rather be shot with a .22LR than a .45 ACP or 10mm S&W... or 12ga shotgun... because I'd have a far better chance and the scars/pain would be greatly reduced. What about you folks?
 
I can only think of two reasons to carry a gun in 22 LR:

1) You need to conceal a very small gun.
2) Arthritis or some other disease makes shooting anything heavier impossible.
 
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