Rear Bag Interferes with Holding Gun

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Swifty Morgan

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Yesterday I was trying to get an ATN X-Sight II working with a .204 Ruger at 100 yards, and I had technical problems, so I got out the .17 HMR and used the short time I had left to fire a few rounds. I used one target to get the rifle sighted in, and then I managed to shoot two 5-round groups at another target before packing up. I do not shoot at the same point of aim all the time. I am cheap, so I pick different places. That way I can use a target longer. This is why the second target has two groups so far apart.

Things went considerably better on the second target, which makes sense, because I was twiddling scope knobs while shooting at the first target, but what you can't see from the photos is that I shot worse on the first target--a lot worse--even when I was not twiddling knobs.

I can't figure out what happened, but there it is.

I have been using a leather rabbit ear rear bag and either a cheap Caldwell front rest or a bipod.

The rabbit ear bag likes to slide on my plastic Home Depot table. Furthermore, it seems like it's impossible to put my shoulder to the butt without pushing the bag around. I have to work to hold it steady. Is this normal? It seems like a bad way to do things, but I don't know how I can get the bag under the butt AND not touch it with my chest.

I have been moving the butt of the gun forward and back to adjust elevation. Not sure if that's kosher. It seems like it would be better to put the very rear of the butt on the bag and leave it there, but that's hard to do.

I like shooting from a rest, but I would prefer not to go full gun nut and use a sled. Is there a better product for stabilizing the rear of a gun, without the problems I'm having?

I have had zero instruction, so I'm winging it.

The front rest is annoying, because the vertical range is small. Sometimes I can't move it enough to get a gun on target without straining. I'm going to look for something else. I like bipods, but sometimes mine is too tall at the lowest height.

03 17 19 17 HMR 100 yds 01 small.jpg

03 17 19 17 HMR 100 yds 02 small.jpg
 
I would prefer not to go full gun nut and use a sled.

A “full gun nut” would not use a sled. Lazy rifle owners who can’t run a rifle properly use a sled. Don’t use a sled.

I have been moving the butt of the gun forward and back to adjust elevation. Not sure if that's kosher.

Common practice.

It’s not so uncommon for guys to feel their feel bag under their chest. To be honest, I’m contacting my rear bag the vast majority of the time. The simplest fix for the interference is to sit more upright at the bench, as you really should be, so your chest isn’t laying forward onto the bag.
 
So maybe I need to move the chair farther forward.

I also have a problem with my earmuffs getting in the way when I try to get a cheek weld. It's always something. This gun came from the factory with a low buttstock, so I put an aftermarket riser thing on it, and now the buttstock is fine, but the earmuffs cause problems so I have to lean my head way over to the side. Guess I can use silicone plugs instead, but I love my Peltors.

I don't understand why it's hard to find a front rest with a wide range of heights. I think I'll make one from plywood and some other scraps.
 
cheek welds are so 2016 :)


here's the deal. you're going to have to learn to call your shots and diagnose this. start with your wobble. how much are the crosshairs moving? if they're completely still, you've got a good position and the source of your group size could be trigger pull, the gun, ammo, parallax, etc.
if they're moving around, that's still pretty normal, but you've got to learn to keep them on the target.
and if there's a lot of mirage out, the gun might be still and your target might appear to be moving.

but from your description, i'd first focus on getting comfortable in a position you can basically lay down and relax in for a few min. i usually rest my body on the bench by leaning into it some. then focus on making sure your scope is parallax free. then focus on fine tuning your position so the crosshairs aren't moving at all. then focus on pulling the trigger back as straight as you can without moving the gun.
 
So maybe I need to move the chair farther forward.

I also have a problem with my earmuffs getting in the way when I try to get a cheek weld. It's always something. This gun came from the factory with a low buttstock, so I put an aftermarket riser thing on it, and now the buttstock is fine, but the earmuffs cause problems so I have to lean my head way over to the side. Guess I can use silicone plugs instead, but I love my Peltors.

I don't understand why it's hard to find a front rest with a wide range of heights. I think I'll make one from plywood and some other scraps.
I prefer plugs when shooting a rifle. You can buy or build a front rest that rises by spinning a nut.
Definitely sit up straight when shooting from a bench.
 
cheek welds are so 2016 :)

When I got the gun, the butt was very low, so I had to hover over it with limited support while I tried to sight through the scope. It seemed a little strange to put that stock on a gun that came with no iron sights. I'm not complaining. I probably have $550 in it, including the glass, sling, and cheek riser, and the ammo is very cheap and shoots well.

I'm Googling around to see if there's a table out there with 4 adjustable legs for under a hundred bucks. The front rest can't overcome the slant of the table on ground that isn't flat.
 
All the little ways you interact with the gun can cause issues if it is not consistent

You need to find a way that you are not fighting with the setup,
There is no “wrong” way to stabilize a rifle if it is actually stable and repeatable, but it sounds like you lack repeatability

Also, dry fire 2 or 3 times between shots

Get behind the gun, get on the scope, take aim, continue breathing and close your eyes for 2 or 3 breathing cycles, when you open your eyes, you should still be on target, if not, make a small adjustment in body position or bag position and repeat until you can close your eyes, take a shot and hit what you aimed at
 
I'm Googling around to see if there's a table out there with 4 adjustable legs for under a hundred bucks. The front rest can't overcome the slant of the table on ground that isn't flat.
On that note I believe you will find a three leg rest will offer you better stability. When shooting off the bench I like my old Wichita Rifle Rest along with using a Protektor Small Owl Ear Bag on the rest and for the rear support I like the Protektor Bunny Ear Rear bag, all filled with sand. Other manufacturer's products are about the same. These are the items I called out. The only time I use a lead sled is when I am not interested in shot placement on a target and just collecting velocity data. The lead sled just gets in the way of alignment of my eye to scope and makes repeatability in how I hold the rifle difficult. Been so many years since I bought this stuff I haven't a clue as to current cost.

Ron
 
I just had a thought. Are you shooting from a folding table? If so, that is allot 75% of your problem. If you are handy, it doesn't take much money or time to make a light 3 legged bench.
 
You need to find a way that you are not fighting with the setup,
There is no “wrong” way to stabilize a rifle if it is actually stable and repeatable, but it sounds like you lack repeatability

That's it. I get the gun lined up, shoot, and then wrestle it back into position.
 
On that note I believe you will find a three leg rest will offer you better stability. When shooting off the bench I like my old Wichita Rifle Rest along with using a Protektor Small Owl Ear Bag on the rest and for the rear support I like the Protektor Bunny Ear Rear bag, all filled with sand. Other manufacturer's products are about the same. These are the items I called out. The only time I use a lead sled is when I am not interested in shot placement on a target and just collecting velocity data. The lead sled just gets in the way of alignment of my eye to scope and makes repeatability in how I hold the rifle difficult. Been so many years since I bought this stuff I haven't a clue as to current cost.

Ron

The Caldwell rest I use has three legs, but you can't raise or lower the feet. The bag that came with it is a lot like the Owl bag you mention. The rear bag you have may be the exact same one I have. It's a Protektor.
 
The Caldwell rest I use has three legs, but you can't raise or lower the feet.

Run down to the hardware store and get some longer bolts to replace the factory feet. I wanna say there’s at least an inch of differential foot correction in most of the Caldwell rests, which is a LOT of angle over their short length, so you must be shooting on REALLY uneven ground, but a few bucks worth of new bolts would give you all the leveling control you could ever need.

I have a couple tables I use for temporary benches. I usually stamp the ground under the legs to be as level as possible, combined with stomping the legs slightly into the ground to secure the table a bit, how hard I tamp the dirt before stomping in the legs will also give control over leveling the table.
 
Run down to the hardware store and get some longer bolts to replace the factory feet. I wanna say there’s at least an inch of differential foot correction in most of the Caldwell rests, which is a LOT of angle over their short length, so you must be shooting on REALLY uneven ground, but a few bucks worth of new bolts would give you all the leveling control you could ever need.

The distance between the rear bag and the front rest is pretty large, but maybe your idea would work. I believe I would have to drill and tap the legs, however.
 
The distance between the rear bag and the front rest is pretty large, but maybe your idea would work. I believe I would have to drill and tap the legs, however.

Shoot perpendicular to the table length. That’s how I typically shoot from that table anyway. Better with a front rest than with a bipod, as you won’t push the legs off of the front.
 
I shoot with it angled at 45 degrees, to sort of approximate a table with a cutout. Now that I think of it, I could just clamp a piece of plywood to it to fake a cutout.
 
Here is my table. Strictly heirloom quality. It was here on the premises, so I used it.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lifetime-6-ft-Essential-Almond-Fold-in-Half-Table-80454/302724390
I have shot from one of those. It easily add a 1/2"to your group. Beats being in the mud or looking through grass.
I never thought of angling it. I will have to try that myself.
Is the dirt soft enough to sink the rear legs? Depending on your height, a stool, or cheap camping chair can but you at a more comfortable level.
 
I have shot from one of those. It easily add a 1/2"to your group. Beats being in the mud or looking through grass.
I never thought of angling it. I will have to try that myself.
Is the dirt soft enough to sink the rear legs? Depending on your height, a stool, or cheap camping chair can but you at a more comfortable level.

If it adds 1/2" to my groups, I am a much better shot than I thought.

I shoot in a cow pasture. The soil here is poor and sandy, but it would be a pain to shove table legs into it. The reason I sit too far from the table is that it's a pain to drag the chair up to it while seated. The grass obstructs the motion. If you move it close before you sit, it's hard to squeeze in. I guess I will have to man up and move the chair up.
 
A question that I have had that is likely related to the OP - what is 'bag bounce', and how is it corrected?
 
A question that I have had that is likely related to the OP - what is 'bag bounce', and how is it corrected?
Bags that are not too full, sit flat and hard against the bench, but enough fill to make them solid. Ears that fit the rifle well. And heavy sand, but for anything but bench work, it's named correctly.
 
@Swifty Morgan it has taken me 3 purchased rear bags and 5 home made rear bags and 2 bipods to get really comfortable and confident in my set up, and I still screw it up half the time, part of that is that I insist that all my shooting must fit into some “practical” form (self restricting) so I won’t buy a nice front rest and rabbit ear bag, instead I shoot off a bipod with a canvas rear bag, and I shoulder my rifle and watch the bullet hit the target

The point to all of this is that you probably won’t just grab a rifle, rest and one bag, find a shooting surface, sit down and stack tiny little groups all day, there is a lot that goes into it, learn how you can be comfy and consistent and enjoy learning how to drive your rifle
 
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