Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Considering receiver mounting a red dot on an HD 870---and if it were to work out ---maybe go whole hog and get an Eotech-------just a cheapy red dot for now.
What says the jury????
What says the jury????
Red dot on a HD 870--usefull or useless???
- Thread starter Omaha-BeenGlockin
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WillBrayJr
Member
If the shotgun is being for home defense why would you need a red dot sight? Not trying to be rude just wondering why you would need one at close range. It's perfectly alright if the sight can stand up to the recoil! 
EghtySx
Member
I'd have to say useless. Maybe even dangerous if you take time to look through it when you could have just pointed and shot.
IIRC the first red dot type sights were for shotguns. Didn't Weaver put one out in the late 70s?
Sights are necessary on a home defense gun. You still have to aim. A red dot is faster then a bead, rifle type iron sights or a ghost ring.
Jeff
Sights are necessary on a home defense gun. You still have to aim. A red dot is faster then a bead, rifle type iron sights or a ghost ring.
Jeff
shermacman
Member
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- 1,751
I have an 870 for my home/land security. I put a MagLite on the business end for three reasons:
1) In all probability any social work will be done at night, I want to be able to see my target, not shoot the dog or my teenage daughter sneaking back in the middle of the night...
2) The MagLite focuses a tight beam, useful in putting little pellets of lead into the center of light.
3) I would be happy to blind the miscreant right before he either gives up or dies.
I know that there are those who think that the light can also work against you if it gives away your location. But I am not going to use it until the last second.
1) In all probability any social work will be done at night, I want to be able to see my target, not shoot the dog or my teenage daughter sneaking back in the middle of the night...
2) The MagLite focuses a tight beam, useful in putting little pellets of lead into the center of light.
3) I would be happy to blind the miscreant right before he either gives up or dies.
I know that there are those who think that the light can also work against you if it gives away your location. But I am not going to use it until the last second.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
On a "game gun" (3-gun etc) I'd say go for it.
But on a house gun, no way. One more protuberance to get hung up in deployment, one more failure source (batteries, electronics), one more delay in getting the gun into action (gotta turn it on after all). None of those are helpful when the adrenalin starts pumping- KISS is the best solution there. For a house gun you are talking ranges measured in feet, not yards, no need for more complications than the situation brings to bear.
lpl/nc
In my hour of darkness, In my time of need
Oh, Lord grant me vision, Oh, Lord grant me speed
-Gram Parsons/Emmylou Harris, 1974
But on a house gun, no way. One more protuberance to get hung up in deployment, one more failure source (batteries, electronics), one more delay in getting the gun into action (gotta turn it on after all). None of those are helpful when the adrenalin starts pumping- KISS is the best solution there. For a house gun you are talking ranges measured in feet, not yards, no need for more complications than the situation brings to bear.
lpl/nc
In my hour of darkness, In my time of need
Oh, Lord grant me vision, Oh, Lord grant me speed
-Gram Parsons/Emmylou Harris, 1974
Nix the dot idea, totally unnecessary on a HD gun. If you want a better sight picture, one that is fast and can be picked up in any light, go this route. Order an XS sights big dot front bead, go to the hardware store and buy some acetone (degreaser) and JB weld (adhesive). Slap it on and allow 1 day to dry. Adjust your stock for LOP and drop, and that's it your good to go. Your hardware problem is solved, you'll be able to hit fatser at close range with said combo than you would with anything else.
No_Brakes23
Member
I am contemplating a reflex site for my 870 because I want to get one of those AR adapter kits.
I find normal rifle/shotgun stocks very uncomfortable vs a pistol grip. Unfortunately this stock will pretty much throw off the sight picture from what I understand.
Besides, I hate the indistict sight pic of the bead anyway. Ideally, I could get ghost ring sights and a pistol grip, but I am not sure how do that for the front.
I find normal rifle/shotgun stocks very uncomfortable vs a pistol grip. Unfortunately this stock will pretty much throw off the sight picture from what I understand.
Besides, I hate the indistict sight pic of the bead anyway. Ideally, I could get ghost ring sights and a pistol grip, but I am not sure how do that for the front.
No_Brakes23
Member
Slugs tend to mess those up? Not a good fit?
I am not making a 3 gun game gun or riceR gun, just trying to make something practical with what I have. The tele-stock would allow both my vertically-challenged wife and I to get decent LOP on the same weapon.
Plus the though of glueing, (OK JBweld isn't glue) sights on strikes me as a poor solution.
I am not making a 3 gun game gun or riceR gun, just trying to make something practical with what I have. The tele-stock would allow both my vertically-challenged wife and I to get decent LOP on the same weapon.
Plus the though of glueing, (OK JBweld isn't glue) sights on strikes me as a poor solution.
I don't think the set-up you posted would be comfortable to fire with heavy recoiling loads for two reasons:
1. No recoil pad to speak of. I know there are probably a few slip-on units out there, but there is no way they'd compare with a nice cushy decelerator or kick-eez.
2. Issue collapsible M4 stocks suck, that's why there is an entire cottage industry devoted to producing replacements - Mag-pul, VLTOR, etc. One of those units would probably improve the AR-870 adaptor, but you are talking serious $$$, possibly more than the base price of your gun.
On the other hand, a pistol-gripped stock does provide another point at which you body can absorb recoil. This may or may not be a positive thing, depending on the condition of your wrists. Most trainers eschew a PG stock in favor of the standard unit. Such a unit would also add considerable weight to your gun, that is something you should be aware of if you intend for your wife to use it.
The XS sight works really well. It was designed by Ashley Emerson and Lewis Awerbuck and is advocated by Clint Smith and Kevin McClung. Good enough for Ashley, Lewis, Clint and Mad Dog? Good enough for me. BTW, the scattergun-tech front sights have always been glued in place. Though they have their detractors, they have stood up pretty well in civilian and LE use.
I think the answer to having a gun that could potentially be used by you and your wife, is to fit the gun to her. A tall person can shoot a short stock with ease, but a short person will have fits with a long stock. You could also have an adaptor fitted that allows you to switch recoil pads. She could use a 1/4" with birdshot, and you could use a 1" pad.
1. No recoil pad to speak of. I know there are probably a few slip-on units out there, but there is no way they'd compare with a nice cushy decelerator or kick-eez.
2. Issue collapsible M4 stocks suck, that's why there is an entire cottage industry devoted to producing replacements - Mag-pul, VLTOR, etc. One of those units would probably improve the AR-870 adaptor, but you are talking serious $$$, possibly more than the base price of your gun.
On the other hand, a pistol-gripped stock does provide another point at which you body can absorb recoil. This may or may not be a positive thing, depending on the condition of your wrists. Most trainers eschew a PG stock in favor of the standard unit. Such a unit would also add considerable weight to your gun, that is something you should be aware of if you intend for your wife to use it.
The XS sight works really well. It was designed by Ashley Emerson and Lewis Awerbuck and is advocated by Clint Smith and Kevin McClung. Good enough for Ashley, Lewis, Clint and Mad Dog? Good enough for me. BTW, the scattergun-tech front sights have always been glued in place. Though they have their detractors, they have stood up pretty well in civilian and LE use.
I think the answer to having a gun that could potentially be used by you and your wife, is to fit the gun to her. A tall person can shoot a short stock with ease, but a short person will have fits with a long stock. You could also have an adaptor fitted that allows you to switch recoil pads. She could use a 1/4" with birdshot, and you could use a 1" pad.
No_Brakes23
Member
Yeah the weight is one of my concerns.
As for the money, a Magpull would be more, but if I did the same set-up, (Mesa Arms,) but subsituted a VLTOR it would only change the price by $10.*edit*I was wrong, it is a $60-$80 difference* Not sure how easy it would be to get a collapsible AR stock in Cali, though.
"I swear it is for my shotgun, not my evil black rifle mister FFL!"
(The Mesa unit is sold in Cali specifically for pump shotguns.)
And yes, I paid about $280 give or take for an 870 ExSuMag with a 28" barrel, so I am easily looking at spending twice that to do what I am contemplating. ($250-265 for AR stock/grip/adapter, $160 for low-end reflex sight, $140 for 18" barrel, plus the mag xtender, new forend, fat safety etc...) God forbid I want a Vang comp barrel or anything.
On reflection an 870 police would have been a better deal, but I bought the gun 4 years ago as a do-all platform.
Still cheaper than a Wilson 870, though.
I am going to get the shorter barrel and mag extender first, since those have an immediate practical gain for very little cash, but I am unsure how to test the set-up I want without buying it.
As for the money, a Magpull would be more, but if I did the same set-up, (Mesa Arms,) but subsituted a VLTOR it would only change the price by $10.*edit*I was wrong, it is a $60-$80 difference* Not sure how easy it would be to get a collapsible AR stock in Cali, though.
"I swear it is for my shotgun, not my evil black rifle mister FFL!"
(The Mesa unit is sold in Cali specifically for pump shotguns.)
And yes, I paid about $280 give or take for an 870 ExSuMag with a 28" barrel, so I am easily looking at spending twice that to do what I am contemplating. ($250-265 for AR stock/grip/adapter, $160 for low-end reflex sight, $140 for 18" barrel, plus the mag xtender, new forend, fat safety etc...) God forbid I want a Vang comp barrel or anything.
On reflection an 870 police would have been a better deal, but I bought the gun 4 years ago as a do-all platform.
Still cheaper than a Wilson 870, though.
I am going to get the shorter barrel and mag extender first, since those have an immediate practical gain for very little cash, but I am unsure how to test the set-up I want without buying it.
Last edited:
LeonCarr
Member
How is a red dot faster than a bead? IMO you would be better served by buying ammo and shooting more.
BA/UU/R
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
BA/UU/R
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Mesa Tactical
Member
There's nothing wrong with the M4 stocks. They are Mil-spec and can take quite a beating. In fact, Vltor and Magpul stocks do not have the same field experience as the M4 stock, so there's no saying whether they are more robust.
That being said, we do encorurage people to use aftermarket stocks on their AR Stock Adapter set-ups, and the Vltor and Magpul (and LMT/Crane, etc) stocks work just fine.
The place for Californians to buy collapsible stocks in on the Internet. Not for any legal reasons, but because there just isn't that much of a market for them here for dealers to stock them.
That being said, we do encorurage people to use aftermarket stocks on their AR Stock Adapter set-ups, and the Vltor and Magpul (and LMT/Crane, etc) stocks work just fine.
The place for Californians to buy collapsible stocks in on the Internet. Not for any legal reasons, but because there just isn't that much of a market for them here for dealers to stock them.
Putting aside "optic v. no optic", if the weapon is going to be used for defensive work, a "cheapo" red dot is a Very Bad Idea.
My personal experience playing around with a BSA dot on my 870 is that neither the mount nor the optic is up to any serious task. Under buck and slug recoil, screws would back out inspite of heavy loctite, and the dot would not hold zero. Add parallax issues, and you've got an unworkable system (i.e., you are unable to train with the weapon in that configuration).
Folks certainly do run optics on working shotguns, but those folks have made an investment.
My personal experience playing around with a BSA dot on my 870 is that neither the mount nor the optic is up to any serious task. Under buck and slug recoil, screws would back out inspite of heavy loctite, and the dot would not hold zero. Add parallax issues, and you've got an unworkable system (i.e., you are unable to train with the weapon in that configuration).
Folks certainly do run optics on working shotguns, but those folks have made an investment.
No_Brakes23
Member
Is the force of a 12ga slug really that much different than .30 cal rifle round fired in a bolt action, (I.e. no recoil spring)?
Also if slugs knock optics loose, then what about deer guns with rifled slugs? Are all those scopes worthless? Hard to believe.
Regarding reflex sites, I am truely lost in the sauce. I understand the trijicons don't need batteries, (And are cost prohibative as well,) but what is the difference between EOtech, C-More, Hakko, and OKO? The appeal to me is the easy sight picture, (I really hate closing one eye to aim,) not the red dot. Yes, I realize ghost rings would serve the same purpose, but the ghost ring options for shotugns seems to be limited to XS or ?
I have even contemplated getting the Mesa or CavArms AR adapter and putting AR sights on it, but that leaves me with the question of what to do with the front.
Obviously, getting a barrel that is 10" shorter and getting 2-3 rounds more in the magazine would yield more immediate benefits, (And that is what I will do first,) but I still want to explore the possibilities of other set-ups.
And yes, no set-up is worthwhile without practice, which is why I get to the range as often as time and money permit.
Also if slugs knock optics loose, then what about deer guns with rifled slugs? Are all those scopes worthless? Hard to believe.
Regarding reflex sites, I am truely lost in the sauce. I understand the trijicons don't need batteries, (And are cost prohibative as well,) but what is the difference between EOtech, C-More, Hakko, and OKO? The appeal to me is the easy sight picture, (I really hate closing one eye to aim,) not the red dot. Yes, I realize ghost rings would serve the same purpose, but the ghost ring options for shotugns seems to be limited to XS or ?
I have even contemplated getting the Mesa or CavArms AR adapter and putting AR sights on it, but that leaves me with the question of what to do with the front.
Obviously, getting a barrel that is 10" shorter and getting 2-3 rounds more in the magazine would yield more immediate benefits, (And that is what I will do first,) but I still want to explore the possibilities of other set-ups.
And yes, no set-up is worthwhile without practice, which is why I get to the range as often as time and money permit.
"Is the force of a 12ga slug really that much different than .30 cal rifle round fired in a bolt action"
I think so. Couldn't find a good, comprehensive recoil table, but, if you check out the rifle and shotgun tables at this link, you'll see that a .30-06 will kick out about 20 ft.lbs. of recoil energy, while a high brass 12 gauge load generates closer to 45 ft.lbs:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm
"Also if slugs knock optics loose, then what about deer guns with rifled slugs? Are all those scopes worthless? Hard to believe"
My point wasn't that "slugs knock optics loose," it was that slugs knock cheap optics loose . Folks who outfit dedicated deer guns with an optic tend to spend a little money on the optic.
Moreover, (excuse the generalization) a hunting gun will tend to see a bit less use/abuse than a serious fighting shotgun. If OBG takes his 870 to just about any school, he'll put more rounds downrange after lunch on the first day than many hunters do all season. Anything we hang off our serious firearms has to be robust. His suggested EOtech might qualify, a $30 red dot does not.
I think so. Couldn't find a good, comprehensive recoil table, but, if you check out the rifle and shotgun tables at this link, you'll see that a .30-06 will kick out about 20 ft.lbs. of recoil energy, while a high brass 12 gauge load generates closer to 45 ft.lbs:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm
"Also if slugs knock optics loose, then what about deer guns with rifled slugs? Are all those scopes worthless? Hard to believe"
My point wasn't that "slugs knock optics loose," it was that slugs knock cheap optics loose
. Folks who outfit dedicated deer guns with an optic tend to spend a little money on the optic. Moreover, (excuse the generalization) a hunting gun will tend to see a bit less use/abuse than a serious fighting shotgun. If OBG takes his 870 to just about any school, he'll put more rounds downrange after lunch on the first day than many hunters do all season. Anything we hang off our serious firearms has to be robust. His suggested EOtech might qualify, a $30 red dot does not.
No Brakes,
You can pick up an 870 Police trade-in for less than $280:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30036434
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30064119
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30072982
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30102238
I would go with a wooden stock as they are the easiest to modify, read shortened LOP, optimal drop, Pachmayr Decelerator (preferably the sporting clays model).
A cheap red dot will fail. If you go that route, you should buy an Aimpoint and a LaRue or ARMS ring $$$$.
Mesa,
IMHO, the standard M4 stock provides a poor stock weld and tends to wobble slightly under pressure (the old one could actually pinch you). I doubt the M4 stock would fail under normal use, but feel that an aluminum tube and plastic butt are less than an ideal point of contact for a shotgun-shooter's face and shoulder. For those whose primary arm is the M4, your product would provide some commonality. Such users will probably have the shotgun along for breeching, and a collapsible stock makes sense. Respectfully though, I don't that it is of greater utility to a gunowner defending hearth and home, than a standard stock fitted to him.
You can pick up an 870 Police trade-in for less than $280:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30036434
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30064119
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30072982
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30102238
I would go with a wooden stock as they are the easiest to modify, read shortened LOP, optimal drop, Pachmayr Decelerator (preferably the sporting clays model).
A cheap red dot will fail. If you go that route, you should buy an Aimpoint and a LaRue or ARMS ring $$$$.
Mesa,
IMHO, the standard M4 stock provides a poor stock weld and tends to wobble slightly under pressure (the old one could actually pinch you). I doubt the M4 stock would fail under normal use, but feel that an aluminum tube and plastic butt are less than an ideal point of contact for a shotgun-shooter's face and shoulder. For those whose primary arm is the M4, your product would provide some commonality. Such users will probably have the shotgun along for breeching, and a collapsible stock makes sense. Respectfully though, I don't that it is of greater utility to a gunowner defending hearth and home, than a standard stock fitted to him.
Zak Smith
Member
Mesa Tactical
Member
Today at the Trexpo West show a local police armorer told me they have had six M4 stocks fail on AR-15 rifles. The locking pins broke, which is about where you would expect the point of failure to be. This is the first I have ever heard of this happening.
I asked where the stocks came from, since these days they are coming from all over (our M4 stock assemblies are from Cavalry Arms, though Cav Arms only make the plastic parts, they source tube and hardware elsewhere). He said the stocks that broke were from Armalite. Dunno where they get their locking pins, or what they are made of.
No_Brakes23
Member
jason10mm
Member
I have a mesa tactical high tube adaptor. It is built very well. I have a trijicon reflex 2 on it now, will probably get an OKO soon as the trijicon triangle gets washed out by the surefire light. Anyway, static targets are pretty easy to hit with the optic, but trying to shoot skeet with one SUCKS You trade away some of the instinctive pointability of a bead sight for increased precision of the optic.
I have a vltor carbine stock on her now. I haven't worked with it extensively, but with the rubber buttpad, recoil isn't that bad. I like how I can adjust the LOP, I find that I prefer a much shorter stock with the optic than I do with a bead or ghost ring.
You trade away some of the instinctive pointability of a bead sight for increased precision of the optic.I have a vltor carbine stock on her now. I haven't worked with it extensively, but with the rubber buttpad, recoil isn't that bad. I like how I can adjust the LOP, I find that I prefer a much shorter stock with the optic than I do with a bead or ghost ring.
No_Brakes23
Member
That is the second positive endorsement I have heard for the Mesa/Vltor combo, and it is the one that looks the best to me. But, I like the sling position of the Mesa/Cav stock better, and it is $60-$80 less.
Now if I could figure out what the practical difference is between the Hakko 24 and Hakko 35...
Zak Smith
Member
To answer the question, a red dot sight may not be a good choice on a Home Defense shotgun because that will require more time to turn on the primary sighting system.
The only red dot competent to do defense duty is the Aimpoint M2/M3. It has battery life measured in years, so you could just leave it on with the lens caps off 24/7.
Consider that if you need a shotgun for HD, you will likely need it RIGHT $#% NOW, not "sometime in the next 5 minutes."
-z
The only red dot competent to do defense duty is the Aimpoint M2/M3. It has battery life measured in years, so you could just leave it on with the lens caps off 24/7.
Consider that if you need a shotgun for HD, you will likely need it RIGHT $#% NOW, not "sometime in the next 5 minutes."
-z
SinistralRifleman
Member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2005
- Messages
- 49
Reflex sights and AR stock systems on shotguns are specialized items for people who through their experience shooting have determined that they need them to be even more effective. Most people who do not shoot a lot would be better served with a iron sight or ghost ring set up. For people that do shoot and train sufficiently reflex sights can be an advantage and a worthwhile investment. Pick what works well for you and train with it.
The guns I use for competition are the same I keep handy for defensive purposes...my competition shotgun is a 20" Remington 870 with SST-870 stock adapter with C1 stock, and either iron sights or optics depending on what class I want to shoot in. For defensive purposes I leave the OKO M on it, set to the brightness setting I most commonly use with master switch off.
The guns I use for competition are the same I keep handy for defensive purposes...my competition shotgun is a 20" Remington 870 with SST-870 stock adapter with C1 stock, and either iron sights or optics depending on what class I want to shoot in. For defensive purposes I leave the OKO M on it, set to the brightness setting I most commonly use with master switch off.
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