Revolver cartridge carbines - A why don't they thread

[Jason_W]

We all know that revolver rounds become a whole new entity when fired from a carbine. For example, I know from personal experience that a 125 grain remington factory load will exceed 2,000 f/s from an 18" barrel, giving it more energy out to 50 yards than most .223/5.56 loads from a 16" barrel. There's no appreciable recoil, either. Also, they can be handloaded inexpensively, especially if you cast your own bullets.

In theory, a semi-auto carbine chambered for a revolver round would be a potent utility gun. Ruger had the Deerfield Carbine (later called the 99/44) but rimmed revolver rounds aren't ideal for detachable magazines.

I've long wondered why no one ever invented rimless versions of the .357 mag and .44 mag that would not only stack well in a magazine, but would still be usable in revolvers by way of moon clips.

A 99/44 with an 8-10 round mag would be formidable. It would also be nice if they changed that torturous crescent buttstock.

 

[115grfmj]

What would be the point?? For me it's a positive that it isn't available in an AR. I know this may come as a shock but their are lots of us out there to which the AR platform has NO APPEAL. Not only that for my revolver I like the utility of being able to just have a pocket full of cartridges instead of magazine. Additionally, rimmed rounds.....extract better

For me....if it aint broke.....

 

[WestKentucky]

They did but they didn't catch on. People like interchangeability and it's not easy to do that between box-fed rifle and wheel gun. Revolvers use the rim to headspace, do away with that and you lose the majority of the appeal. Moon clips are an answer but that's going the wrong way from what you want to do.

 

[Jason_W]

I personally wasn't envisioning an AR. I was thinking more along the lines of a more potent M1 carbine or big bore Mini-14. I never really got into the whole AR craze. Nothing against them, I'm just not really interested.

 

[WestKentucky]

I despise an ar. For me they fit like left shoe fits a right foot. Sure it can be made to work, but it's never going to feel right. I'm very interested in the ares scr though but still I'm a revolver guy and if I buy a configurable rifle, I want it to take my revolver rounds. That puts me into the ruger 77-44, Winchester clones, and single shot type rifles. A rimmed autoloader would have happened if it were feasible by now.

 

[Jason_W]

That puts me into the ruger 77-44, Winchester clones, and single shot type rifles. A rimmed autoloader would have happened if it were feasible by now.

I'm considering the 77/44 as well. I like leverguns, but there are no current production leverguns I can afford that I trust to be of decent quality. I don't want to pay a premium for a used pre-Remington Marlin either.

As far as making a rimless revolver round for an auto loader, these guys did it with the .45 Raptor.

http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/

It's feasible, there might just not be enough demand to justify it.

 

[GDownRange]

I've always thought that a Mini-14 chambered in 10mm would be very handy, but a 10mm revolver isn't very appealing to me.

Someone should suggest that Ruger make an SR in 10mm, with a companion carbine. Interchangeable mags would make a sweat combination.

 

[CraigC]

I've long thought that a series of rifles based on the Ruger PC carbines, only chambered in a new "set" of cartridges, would be awesome. Take the .44Automag case, use it straight but also neck it down to .30cal, .357 (AMP) and either .41 or 10mm (with new bullets) and stack them in a new proprietary magazine and you'd have one hell of a potent carbine. Maybe even do an adjustable gas system and interchangeable barrels.

 

[Bezoar]

keep it rimmed, and your stuck with straight stick mags for reliability.

cost, recoil springs.

example, the 10/22 is designed for a very narrow spectrum of 22lr only ammunition. rim diameter and thickness as well. you can manually feed a 22 short in, but dont expect proper ejection in anyway. unless you get the 22short replacement bolt/bolt handle/ bolt spring kit

 

[rule303]

I've always thought something along the lines of a scaled up Marlin model 60 chambered in .357 would be neat. 12 or so rounds in a quick handling wood stocked rifle. But pistol caliber carbines just aren't big sellers, except to niche markets which is pretty well covered by lever actions and the black rifles.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"keep it rimmed, and your stuck with straight stick mags for reliability"


Suspect that Oliver Winchester (and one of his designers, one Robert Moses Browning) would have disagreed, having built the most widely manufactured and sold pistol caliber carbines ever built. None have stick magazines... (See the Winchester 1892 as an example, over a million sold...)


Willie

.

 

[gpb]

Sounds like the Winchester Model 1907 in 351 Winchester would fill the bill. Too bad they haven't been made for a number of years.

 

[Panzerschwein]

What about the old Bren gun LMG chambered in .303 British?

That is a rimmed cartridge, but due to the design of the magazine 30 rounds can fit inside, double-stacked, and it is still very reliable.

I wonder why someone couldn't design a Bren-inspired magazine for a .357 magnum/.44 magnum semi-auto carbine??

I would LOVE something like a modern M1 carbine but chambered in .357 magnum, and with a 20 or 30 round magazine!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don't have my Cartrages of the World with me (am camping) but there is a long straight-walled .429 wildcat about the power of the tapered 444 Marlin but will also chamber 44 Mag and Special.

Mike

 

[CraigC]

...there is a long straight-walled .429 wildcat about the power of the tapered 444 Marlin but will also chamber 44 Mag and Special.

The .445SuperMag? It doesn't quite match .444 ballistics.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

No that's not theb one I was thinking of. It is quite old and about the same length as the 444.

Mike

 

[ugaarguy]

I suppose the why not is lack of demand. Pinnacle Guns will machine Ruger RH / SRH .45 Colt / .454 Casull cylinders to accept .45 ACP on moon clips and still retain the ability to run the rimmed cartridge without moon clips for the princely sum of $85 plus shipping. Running .45 Super wouldn't be a problem in either, and you could run .460 Rowland in .454 SRH cylinder. For $225 (GP-100) or $250 (S&W L Frame) the same company will rechamber your Ruger or S&W cylinder to 9x23 Win and machine the face to hold said cartridge (along with 9x19 and .38 super) on moon clips, but the rechamber to 9x23 eliminates the ability to use .357 Mag / .38 Spl cartridges because the cases will fire form to the 9x23 chamber and become stuck. S&W's factory 10mm Auto chambered revolvers like the model 610 have only had enough demand to justify occasional short production runs. If the demand were there you'd more revolvers and carbines chambered in .460 Rowland, 10mm Auto, and 9x23 Winchester. However, if you want such a combination it can be achieved with a little shopping of the used market for 10mm Auto, and some relatively inexpensive gunsmithing for the others.

 

[Arobbins]

They have basically a 357 in an auto 357 sig just build it to plus p standards

 

[Jason_W]

They have basically a 357 in an auto 357 sig just build it to plus p standards

Except the Sig will never be able to shoot 158-200 grain bullets.

 

[barnbwt]

"Suspect that Oliver Winchester (and one of his designers, one Robert Moses Browning) would have disagreed, having built the most widely manufactured and sold pistol caliber carbines ever built. None have stick magazines... (See the Winchester 1892 as an example, over a million sold...)"
Technically, a tube magazine is a straight stick (more so than so-called 'stick' magazines). Just sayin'

There is a way to have a multi-stack tube magazine, and that is the helical mag, like a Calico or Bizon (under barrel makes much more sense, though). I doubt the anti's would like hi-cap magazines that also look like grenade launchers, though


"What about the old Bren gun LMG chambered in .303 British?

That is a rimmed cartridge, but due to the design of the magazine 30 rounds can fit inside, double-stacked, and it is still very reliable."
That has much more to do with the absolutely massive bolt carrier than the magazine being particularly awesome . I think the BREN bolt carrier could probably push the bullet point through the front wall of the mag and chamber it if it were necessary

Oh, one other solution; pancake magazines. They are arguably the most reliable solution for rimmed cases other than (maybe) belt systems. Individual fingers in the pan-mag guide each bullet one by one into the feed lips; very reliable when made properly.


One more, one more solution; Hopper magazines. This is how the Madsen LMG worked; a leaf spring kept a double-stack spring-loaded hopper from spilling its guts when separated from the rifle, but locking it into position moves the spring aside and allowed rounds to be pushed out; no feed lips necessary.

TCB

 

[CoalTrain49]

Awhile ago I was looking for a carbine with a potent rimless cartridge like 9 x 23. I wanted something new and reliable. My budget was $1000. I never found anything to buy because there was nothing being made except AR's. There are some bolt guns and some lever guns but I wanted an auto loader. I finally gave up and bought an M1 carbine built in 1945. I guess if it isn't black with rails you can't sell it no matter what cartridge you chamber it for. No huge loss, I like my carbine. 30 cal @ 2000 fps works, it's just real old and looks like it's been through several wars.

Ruger really needs to build a mini in something like 9 x 23.

 

[BCRider]

Well, we sort of got this idea of rimmed vs rimless but in reverse. And not much at all has come out of it.

Revolvers were produced for .45ACP with moonclips. And there's a pretty good number of carbines out there that use this round. Yet the .45 Auto Rim has pretty well always been a niche cartridge.

 

[PapaG]

Not sure if it was mentioned above but there was the 357 and 44 automag, the latter of which was made from .308 cases cut back, reamed and loaded as a rimless cartridge. Would be nice for a carbine, I think.

 

[jmorris]

Could always take a .223 case and make it straight and set a 357 bullet in it.

 

[ugaarguy]

Could always take a .223 case and make it straight and set a 357 bullet in it.

You could, but you'd have to inside turn the case neck and take out a fair amount of brass. .338 bullets (a la .338 Whisper #2) allow the .223/5.56 case to keep full brass thickness at the case neck.