CountryUgly
Member
And you're flat wrong. I've already shoved a 158gr gas checked LSWC over A#9 in a .357sig case. It's quite a "thumper".
Revolver cartridge carbines - A why don't they thread
- Thread starter Jason_W
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
.357Sig just doesn't have the case capacity for the job, period.
The Ruger and everything else are heavily flawed because they're poor adaptations. Most are very limited on magazine capacity because they try to make do with something existing. The Ruger only holds a handful, less than half that of a 20" levergun. The original Ruger was too expensive to produce to be profitable.
jmorris
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What is the exact job we are talking about, bullet weight, FPS, rifle weight and capacity?
I don't know what the Ruger rotary 44 magizine existed for before that rifle. Anything is too expensive to be profitable if you can't sell enough of them because of low demand. Imagine what a microwave or phone would cost to build if you only wanted 100 a year.
I agree with the tube fed semiauto idea though. Maybe something a little more refined than JMB's first full auto conversion of a lever gun though.
I don't know what the Ruger rotary 44 magizine existed for before that rifle. Anything is too expensive to be profitable if you can't sell enough of them because of low demand. Imagine what a microwave or phone would cost to build if you only wanted 100 a year.
I agree with the tube fed semiauto idea though. Maybe something a little more refined than JMB's first full auto conversion of a lever gun though.
115grfmj
Member
+1
What he said. The 357 sig was designed to approximate the performace of a 357 mag in 125gr. While is an effective defensive cartridge, it is NO hunting round, and lacks the case capacity to duplicate the versatility of the magnum round.
For my money the marlin in 1894c is hard to beat for versatility. From 38s for plinking, and small game, to fast 125s for defense, to heavy 357s for medium game. All in an accurate light recoiling, low flash, and muzzle blast platform, that's not only the funnest thing to shoot, but also has an extremely simple manual of arms for the inexperienced shooter to master. Their is a reason these things are in such high demand.
The problem with the concept, is it immediatly looses the attraction the PCC has in the first place.
commonality of ammo between sidearm and rifle. If you're not going to have commonality why handicap the longarm with pistol rounds?
commonality of ammo between sidearm and rifle. If you're not going to have commonality why handicap the longarm with pistol rounds?
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
If you don't need the range, what do you need a rifle cartridge for?
Jason_W
Member
Given the velocity increase that occurs when you run a revolver round through a carbine (especially when shooting handloads powered by Lil'gun and H-110) They're really not much of a handicap unless, as CraigC mentioned, you're regularly taking shots past 100 yards.
I guess they're a handicap in the same way driving a truck with a V6 is a handicap compared to one with a V8. Yeah, a V8 is more powerful, but unless you do a lot of towing and hauling heavy stuff, the V6 will do what you need while burning less gas.
I have an old Ruger .44 Carbine that I put Williams peep sights on. I adore it. It is good medicine out to 100 yards. As a hunting / plinking rifle I see no need for a detachable magazine - the tube works fine (especially since it will string when the barrel gets too hot anyway).
As someone else said a semi in pistol caliber, especially a magnum round, might be picky about ammo. My .44 carbine works like a dream if I use 230 grain jacketed or semi-jacketed loads. I can fudge the grain weight up or down by 15 grains but I wouldn't want to go much further than that as it either wouldn't cycle or it would hammer the action pretty bad. I also wouldn't want to use real hot loads - spare parts are getting hard to come by. Luckily 230's work for everything I'd need to do.
As someone else said a semi in pistol caliber, especially a magnum round, might be picky about ammo. My .44 carbine works like a dream if I use 230 grain jacketed or semi-jacketed loads. I can fudge the grain weight up or down by 15 grains but I wouldn't want to go much further than that as it either wouldn't cycle or it would hammer the action pretty bad. I also wouldn't want to use real hot loads - spare parts are getting hard to come by. Luckily 230's work for everything I'd need to do.
Ar180shooter
Member
Why not? Because with the wide selection of .357 and .44 mag lever actions, M1 Carbines, and other pistol caliber carbines (Cx4, JR carbine, etc.), there is no demand.
This very obviously is not about need, but to answer your question using an example my 300 Blackout and my Marlin 1894c have very similar muzzle velocities with similar weight bullets but even at 75 to 100 yards the Blackout retains quite a bit more velocity and momentum and will penatrate better.
In theory this is correct but most of the time the reality is that the guy with the V6 gets the same milage cause he's got to put his foot in it more to keep up with traffic and ends up with a shorter lifespan and low resale cause nobody wants the thing.
CoalTrain49
Member
The revolver cartridge semi auto carbines' time has come and gone. The best thing we had/have/will have is a 30 carbine. It bridged the gap when Ruger made the Blackhawk to chamber the 30 carbine.
Both are loud in a revolver. Both are very manageable in a carbine. I've seen the light. I went back and forth as I have several 357 revolvers. Ended up with several M1's. Way more fun than a lever or bolt gun.
Both are loud in a revolver. Both are very manageable in a carbine. I've seen the light. I went back and forth as I have several 357 revolvers. Ended up with several M1's. Way more fun than a lever or bolt gun.
BCRider
Member
It's not so much the velocity or lack of it. It's more about the dismal ballistics coefficient of the short and stubby bullets used in pistol cartidges. It's like they are dragging along little drag chutes with them. They slow down and drop quicker than proper rifle bullets. It's this more than anything else which puts a limit on their use as a hunting round. The bullet drop is easily allowed for. So for target shooting we can lob a .357Mag bullet out to 300 yards or more. But the bullet won't have enough power to humanely deal with game at the other end once we're much past 100 to 180 yards depending on all the variables.
115grfmj
Member
As I'm also the owner of real rifle chambered in real rifle cartridge.....I'm aware of the fact that pistol cartridges can never be as flat shooting. However, most people are surprised by how flat a pistol cartridge can shoot, all with a much wider diameter, and good upset. Here are some facts, at least for the .357 fired from a 18-1/2" barrel in MY 1894c....S&B 158gr jsp sighted to 3" high at 100yds is zeroed out at 171 yards, and only a few inches low at 200. Also does not fall back down to 4" revolver velocities (muzzle velocity) until 150 yards. That's just plain jane commercial stuff. Throw in any of the heavy stuff like buffalo bore and that range could be extended.
Also most will tell you the 357 in a revolver is good to go out to 50yards.
The .357 in a carbine kills all out of proportion to it's size on actual game.
Also most will tell you the 357 in a revolver is good to go out to 50yards.
The .357 in a carbine kills all out of proportion to it's size on actual game.
blarby
Member
In the ruger survey, they specifically ask if you would be interested in a mini-14 in another caliber than .223.
You should take that survey.
Panzerschwein
member
The magnum cartridges gain a huge amount of velocity and energy vs. most auto pistol rounds.
The same 125 grain .357 magnums kachooglin out of your 4" service revolver at 1450 FPS for 586 ft. lbs. of energy can run as high as 1900 FPS out of an 18.5" rifle barrel for 1000 ft. lbs of energy.
Put some extra hot Buffalo Bore 125 grain loads in there and prepare to achieve 10mm performance in the revolver and nearly achieve .30-30 performance in the carbine. At least out to 150-200 yards or so.
Works for me.
The same 125 grain .357 magnums kachooglin out of your 4" service revolver at 1450 FPS for 586 ft. lbs. of energy can run as high as 1900 FPS out of an 18.5" rifle barrel for 1000 ft. lbs of energy.
Put some extra hot Buffalo Bore 125 grain loads in there and prepare to achieve 10mm performance in the revolver and nearly achieve .30-30 performance in the carbine. At least out to 150-200 yards or so.
Works for me.
Jason_W
Member
100 to 180 yards (let's split the difference and call it 150) is nothing to scoff at. There are some regions and specialized situations where long shots might often be necessary (the plains states, hunting over expansive crop fields?) but in any forested area, if you have a 100 to 150 yard lethal reach, you're fine.
I concede that in terms of numbers, "real" rifle rounds make the better large and medium game round. The trouble is that "real" rifle rounds are one trick ponies and are almost universally more expensive (and arguably less pleasant) to shoot.
Yeah, the big fast and pointy rounds win at math, but PCCs win at fun and versatility. With a .357 or .44 mag carbine, I have a light, compact, easy to carry long gun that I can use to either shoot low power, low pressure, and low recoil rounds at targets or small game, or I can ramp up the power level and be deer capable out to 100 yards .357 (which is really about as far as I should ever be shooting at an animal) or out to maybe 150 yards with a .44 mag carbine.
Considering that 99.99% of all shots I fire out of any gun won't be at deer, why would I saddle myself with hard-kicking, ultra high pressure, powder hog? Yeah, I guess I could buy the carbine for day to day fin and also get a "real" deer rifle that will sit in the safe for most of the year, but I have little interest in owning a gun that's going to largely be a safe queen.
I just read thru part of this thread, but I bought a Ruger Deerfield 44 a few months ago from a guy online. I have not shot it yet but have every intention of trying it out on a hog hunt this month.
I also understand the gun is a deer killer out to 200 yards. I don't usually venture too far from my 760 in 30-06 when it comes to meat on the table time, but I may this year.
I also understand the gun is a deer killer out to 200 yards. I don't usually venture too far from my 760 in 30-06 when it comes to meat on the table time, but I may this year.
BCRider
Member
Jason, I'm with you 110% on the fun factor. I'm not a hunter either and my 100 to 180 yard estimate is based on all the stuff I've read about pistol calibers for hunting. The range I posted is wide and a railway tunnel because I'm trying to allow for all the variations for rifle barrels and calibers.
And yeah, around here with our woods even a 60 to 80 yard clear shot is likely a bit of a rare situation. Most will be in tighter than that. So I don't doubt that my Rossi 92 with some stout .357mag loads would do just fine on deer if I were a hunter. And if I were to get a .44Mag Rossi that would just be icing on the cake for hunting.
115grfmj, those are some pretty impressive numbers. Clearly the pundits that I was more or less parroting were even more pessimistic than I gave them credit for. For giggles I ran some load data I found and using a Hornady bullet with a BC of .206 through the Hornady external ballistics calculator. As you say the bullets don't drop back to handgun velocity until 150 yards.
Your drop numbers don't surprise me much either. I was shooting at a 12inch gong sitting out at 200 yards with my Rossi 92 using .357mag loads. Even with my sights set up for the 25 to 30 yard close in cowboy action stuff I only had to use about 8 to 10 inches of hold over to hit the gong 2 out of 3 shots. And for old guy eyes using stock iron sights I was more than happy with that sort of result.
And yeah, around here with our woods even a 60 to 80 yard clear shot is likely a bit of a rare situation. Most will be in tighter than that. So I don't doubt that my Rossi 92 with some stout .357mag loads would do just fine on deer if I were a hunter. And if I were to get a .44Mag Rossi that would just be icing on the cake for hunting.
115grfmj, those are some pretty impressive numbers. Clearly the pundits that I was more or less parroting were even more pessimistic than I gave them credit for. For giggles I ran some load data I found and using a Hornady bullet with a BC of .206 through the Hornady external ballistics calculator. As you say the bullets don't drop back to handgun velocity until 150 yards.
Your drop numbers don't surprise me much either. I was shooting at a 12inch gong sitting out at 200 yards with my Rossi 92 using .357mag loads. Even with my sights set up for the 25 to 30 yard close in cowboy action stuff I only had to use about 8 to 10 inches of hold over to hit the gong 2 out of 3 shots. And for old guy eyes using stock iron sights I was more than happy with that sort of result.
NoirFan
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- Jul 25, 2006
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Yes, this whole idea is clearly about the fun factor. Really, how many guns out there are designed purely based on practicality? It would be boring if everyone out there was shooting the same old bolt .308s and .223 ARs.
It's not the first time I've said this, but I would love a .357 magnum tube mag semiauto, like a scaled-down Mossberg 930, with aperture sights. Have a FAL-like gas valve to shoot a wide range of loads. It would be slim, light, easy to carry, with 12 rounds of hot .357 ready to go. I would buy that gun in a second.
I think a .357 semi auto would about the handiest, most useful rifle ever, and Ruger had such a configuration as an option on the survey that was just out. If they could make it function with .38's as well that would be even more of a good thing. The existing 5 round rotary mag would work just fine, though a higher capacity option would be nice.
tulsamal
Member
Oh, come on.
The .357 SIG was designed to duplicate those 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum velocities because it had become the gold standard for police use. More of those mythical "one shot stops" than any other handgun cartridge. At least that would be in a package that could be carried daily for duty use. Lots of LEO's and people like the Air Marshals use .357 SIG today. You take a modern gun like a Glock 35 with a .357 SIG barrel and fire a Gold Dot bullet at max velocity... that is "NO hunting round?!" The deer that live on my property would disagree with you. Well, they would if they weren't dead... the living ones don't know about it yet. How can a 125 grain Gold Dot be deadly on people and worthless on a 125 pound deer standing 35-50 yards away?
And that's out of a handgun. The thread is about rifles. I had Ron Williams build me a DI .357 SIG AR upper with 9" barrel. The lower was a Lone Wolf that uses Glock mags. (Same G31 .357 SIG mags I use in my .357 SIG Glock 35.) The Williams upper and LW lower worked... but I got a chance to buy a DDLES lower for Glock and jumped on it. Even better now. Makes a great tree stand gun for deer hunting at close range. Would be outstanding in a "serious social situation" especially against multiple attackers. And it uses the same ammunition as my HK P2000 daily carry gun.
I will concede that a .357 Magnum revolver or lever action has more "flexibility." But I have no problem using my various .357 SIG's for hunting on my property.
Gregg
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