Revolver cartridge carbines - A why don't they thread

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Personally I wouldn't want a gun that shoots such specialized ammo, that's just me and no offense intended to anyone that finds it appealing.

Maybe I'm just out of line in my thinking, but why not buy a 9mm/.40/.45 carbine? What makes the the .357/.44 superior for this purpose?
 
I agree with Vamo. there are plenty of available options now. Why would any manufacurer engeneer a rimlees rifle semi round then use it with 100 year old moon clips in a revolver? Rugers "Deerfield" 44 Mag was based on a Mini Ranch rifle. I don't know how good the feeding was fron a double stack mag. The original semi 44 Mag ruger was tube fed. I think most .357/44Mag options will be a revolver and lever action action rifle.
 
I do not think 45 auto would work well for hunting but i could be wrong but 44 mag would be a lot better for hunting purposes
 
Personally I wouldn't want a gun that shoots such specialized ammo, that's just me and no offense intended to anyone that finds it appealing.

Maybe I'm just out of line in my thinking, but why not buy a 9mm/.40/.45 carbine? What makes the the .357/.44 superior for this purpose?

Because such rounds are weak tea when compared to revolver rounds.

Their fine for personal defense, but if you want a carbine that will pull double duty as a PD and medium game rifle out to medium ranges, the revolver rounds have an edge.
 
Because such rounds are weak tea when compared to revolver rounds.

Their fine for personal defense, but if you want a carbine that will pull double duty as a PD and medium game rifle out to medium ranges, the revolver rounds have an edge.

Fair enough, not a hunter so didn't realize how inadequate those cartridges were for hunting. I would still say something like what you propose would have a hard time gaining widespread popularity.

10mm carbines appear to be rare but existent; that might be what you're looking for without having to re-invent the wheel so to speak.
 
I have toyed with the idea of the might 10 but the one I rented (glock) was far from what I expected. It certainly wasn't enough to convert me into a glock owner.

And to the original point of this thread, I agree that there is a void to be filled, but there seems to be no good way to fill such void. Maybe a v shaped single stack mag so that the rounds could offset at the rear but still line up...

Ah heck do it the easy way and belt feed it. That way we would have a belt fed semiauto hunting rifle in anything 327 to 500sw
 
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"keep it rimmed, and your stuck with straight stick mags for reliability"


Suspect that Oliver Winchester (and one of his designers, one Robert Moses Browning) would have disagreed, having built the most widely manufactured and sold pistol caliber carbines ever built. None have stick magazines... (See the Winchester 1892 as an example, over a million sold...)


Willie

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I really hate to be "that guy", but I just have to in this case.

Robert Moses Browning was an English poet. I think you were referring to John Moses Browning.

Other than that, I have to agree with you. The Winchester '92 is a great choice in a pistol caliber rifle.
 
^^ Dead right, being tired when I wrote it (and a fan of both)...

The bottom line in pistol caliber carbines is "If you want one, there are already many designs in lever actions already" (and have been since the 1800's), along with <insert yawn here> followed by "have we really been dumbed down so much that we *insist* on semi-autos when things like lever actions work just fine?", and "see thermodynamics of hell" when mooting if any manufacturer will make up any sort of new cartridge for a new carbine that three people might buy.


Willie

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I do not think 45 auto would work well for hunting but i could be wrong but 44 mag would be a lot better for hunting purposes

The 460 Rowland (1/16" longer than the 45 acp) is comparable to the 44 mag, in short barrels at least. Not a lot of case volume to take advantage of slower powders in longer barrels though.
 
Ok did some research.

Here is a rimless 357 made from .223 cases ready to load they cost $25/100 if you don't want to make your own.
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/357rm.shtml

Looks like Ron Williams makes conversions for AR's that shoot 357 mag.
http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=566876

He also does 45, 40 ,357 sig and 45 win mag

Tony Rumore of Tromix built a few 44 mag AR's around 2001.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=565859

Looks like both his and Ron's conversions use desert eagle mags that were designed for the rimmed cases. Since it can be done but only on a custom basis, I suspect the idea has been canceled due to lack of interest.

Looks like they tried the same concept last century too. The .351 Winchester was made for the 1907 self loading rifle and Would push a 180g to 1870fps according to this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.351_Winchester_Self-Loading
 
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The .460Rowland would be good but the .45WinMag or .44Automag would be better.


The bottom line in pistol caliber carbines is "If you want one, there are already many designs in lever actions already" (and have been since the 1800's), along with <insert yawn here> followed by "have we really been dumbed down so much that we *insist* on semi-autos when things like lever actions work just fine?", and "see thermodynamics of hell" when mooting if any manufacturer will make up any sort of new cartridge for a new carbine that three people might buy.
I am a huge levergun fan and have a truckload compared to one centerfire semi-auto. I can still see the appeal and utility in this concept. Sorry but I do not believe for one second that all good ideas have already been realized.


Looks like both his and Ron's conversions use desert eagle mags that were designed for the rimmed cases. Since it can be done but only on a custom basis, I suspect the idea has been canceled due to lack of interest.
I imagine the 8rd magazines had something to do with it. A pistol cartridge levergun is typically shorter and lighter than a rifle cartridge levergun. Which is why the AR platform might not be the best place for this idea.
 
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They have basically a 357 in an auto 357 sig just build it to plus p standards

Except the Sig will never be able to shoot 158-200 grain bullets.

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=125_180

Simply put there is no demand for such a gun. Besides the handful posting here there are maybe 50 other guys who would buy one. Gun manufacturers can't remain profitable by wasting their time designing and making guns that don't sell. While diverting resources away from profitable products.

This is where custom gunmakers come in. If an individual want something different bad enough to pay to have one made you can have it.

Like them or not, the 5.56 caliber AR carbines have all but killed off pistol caliber carbines for LE, Military and home protection uses. The magnum revolver rounds like 357 and 44 are legitimate hunting rounds from 16" or longer barrels. But in most places a much more powerful rifle caliber gun is cheaper, lighter and much more useful. I understand that in places like Ohio they now only allow straight walled cartridges for hunting and this may increase demand somewhat. But most of us don't have to deal with such restrictions.
 
But in most places a much more powerful rifle caliber gun is cheaper, lighter and much more useful.

Cheaper, maybe, but lighter and more useful?

Pistol cal carbines can weigh in at 6 lbs or less. Also, The variable power of a revolver round makes it versatile. A low power cast bullet load will take small game without destroying too much meat and a more powerful load can take medium and large game if ranges are reasonable. Finally, low pressure, light kicking pistol loads are, in my opinion, a lot more fun to shoot than centerfire rifle rounds.

I do understand that there aren't enough other people who share my train of thought on this and that demand will never be such that manufacturers will come on board with the idea.

After all, we have the .223 and .308, why on Earth would we need anything else, ever? ;)
 
Pistol cal carbines can weigh in at 6 lbs or less. Also, The variable power of a revolver round makes it versatile. A low power cast bullet load will take small game without destroying too much meat and a more powerful load can take medium and large game if ranges are reasonable. Finally, low pressure, light kicking pistol loads are, in my opinion, a lot more fun to shoot than centerfire rifle rounds.

Jason, you can't juggle the muzzle energy of the rounds like you're suggesting from mild to wild in a semi auto. They rely on the ammo being within a fairly narrow range of power to cycle the gun correctly.

Which brings us back to the good ol' lever action. Because it's manually cycled it doesn't care how mild to wild you load the casings. It's also far from slow. I can point to any number of You Tube videos of ultra fast cowboy action shooters blazing away with lever guns that sound more like a fairly fast semi auto. Of course many will be quick to point out that these guys aren't human and they are shooting mouse fart loads. But even if we allow for "proper" power ammo and provided we desire reasonably well aimed shots the lever action gives up very little to a proper semi auto.

Just yesterday we had a fellow shooting his cowboy action 1873 in my club's monthly Speed Steel match. His times matched or were slightly better than a lot of the folks that were shooting semi auto handguns.

So yes, a semi auto carbine like a JR, Keltec, Beretta and others can pump out rounds fast. But for AIMED fast rounds I'd suggest that the lever is at little or no disadvantage to a semi auto. And granted this leaves the true semi auto guns as a better option for PD. But the focus here seems to be more for hunting and general range shooting.

I must admit that it is very interesting that the Ruger semi auto .357 and .44Mag carbines continue to enjoy a pretty healthy popularity. But I also believe that it's a niche market that is easily satiated with a small production batch run every 5 to 7 years and sent out into the world.

As mentioned already what seems like a natural idea that EVERYONE should like often is only attractive to a small sliver of the market. It's typically a very enthusiastic small sliver I'll grant you. But nonetheless it's not going to make a major producer rich to produce such a firearm in massive quantities.

And I sure as blazes do not see this enthusiastic sliver of the market being able to support the profitable production of yet another few specialty cartridges. Namely your rimless .357 and .44 Mag rounds. Not when there's already so many other options already out there. And not when S&W, Ruger, Coonan, Desert Eagle and likely others I don't know about have shown that the rimmed cartridges can be handled in a semi auto magazines of various types already.

So.... as a fellow enthusiastic sliver portion shooter what would I like to see?

For me it's not so much a semi auto that limits me to full house magnum power loads and strips away my ability to load mild plinkers and small varmint/game loads.

Instead I'd like to see a short stroke pump action that uses a vertical box magazine of both 5 and 10 round magazine options. 5 rounds for the lightest and most compact hunting carbine and the 10 round option for range time fun. Options would come in all the more popular and somewhat less popular chamberings of .327Federal Magnum/H&RMag, .357Mag, .44Mag and .45Colt. And perhaps in two different size actions to split the recoil strength limits. A "small block" lighter option for up to .357Mag and the "big block" for .44Mag up to 500S&W.

Or if the pump action idea won't give the support needed and keep the weight down I'd be more than willing to go with a short throw bolt action. But one set up in a way that allows for fast bolt handle cycling and shooting where the bolt handle allows for a two or three finger continuous hold on the bolt handle while the middle or ring finger pulls the trigger. A serious "mad minute" style of bolt action setup.
 
Besides the handful posting here there are maybe 50 other guys who would buy one.
And you do you make that determination???


But in most places a much more powerful rifle caliber gun is cheaper, lighter and much more useful.
If we're dealing in wide generalizations, most deer are shot well under 150yds. As such, it would seem that standard rifle cartridges are unnecessary recoil, noise, blast, weight and expense for most purposes. The only reason that pistol cartridge carbines are not more popular is because a great many shooters and hunters still believe the old BS about kinetic energy. If you don't need an effective range of 200yds or more, then a proper .40-.45cal cartridge capable of launching 200-250gr bullets at 2000fps is a hell of a lot more potent than the 5.56 poodle shooter.


I must admit that it is very interesting that the Ruger semi auto .357 and .44Mag carbines continue to enjoy a pretty healthy popularity.
There is no semi-auto Ruger carbine in .357Mag. Problem with those guns is magazine capacity.
 
And you do you make that determination???

I don't think he was but the market for them has. Like the Winchester 1907 that would fit the order fine and looks like a lever gun but is semi auto! Was dropped from production 57 years ago.

The reason I linked the AR stuff is because they are the "small block Chevy" of the Hotrod gun world. Anything you make for them will sell to some extent but even then magnum pistol rounds are a small market. There are more tennis ball launchers sold than mag pistol round conversions, so its not all about utility but what sells.

As pointed out they have been made in the past, like the Ruger .44 mag rifle but they make products to make money selling a bunch of them, and it didn't do that.

The model 44 made it from 1961-1985.
The deerfield only lasted from 2000-2006.
 
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Autos can be made to handle a variety of power ranges...just have to be designed to operate at lower power levels (38spl) and handle higher power levels by use of a longer recoiling bolt with a progressive spring rate. Bolt travels further to use up the extra energy of the heavier load (357). Build the mag to take the longer round or build them separately if the lengths vary enough to cause tipup issues.
 
Instead I'd like to see a short stroke pump action that uses a vertical box magazine of both 5 and 10 round magazine options. 5 rounds for the lightest and most compact hunting carbine and the 10 round option for range time fun. Options would come in all the more popular and somewhat less popular chamberings of .327Federal Magnum/H&RMag, .357Mag, .44Mag and .45Colt. And perhaps in two different size actions to split the recoil strength limits. A "small block" lighter option for up to .357Mag and the "big block" for .44Mag up to 500S&W.

That would be pretty cool as well.

I am a levergun fan and will likely own one or two again at some point in the future. It just seems that right now, there aren't many good revolver round carbines for under $1,000 or so. Both Marlin and Rossi seem to have spotty QC.
 
I've got my own Rossi and recently did a slicking up job on another for a good friend to use for cowboy action shooting.

I agree that the Rossi quality is a little touch and go at the moment. In particular the majority of short cuts seemed to be on the exterior. On her rifle the wood looked like it had been dipped in badly used engine oil. And the exterior finish wasn't as smooth and polished as on mine that was purchased about 5 years ago. But for this one example at least the insides were actually better than my older one. Hit and miss or just a re-focus on where to concentrate and where to save pennies? I dunno.

I DO know though that at the price for the Rossi you can buy one and get the basic slicking up work done and still be into it for many hundreds less than a good Marlin or Miroku PCC lever gun. And the wood is pretty easy to re-finish for anyone somewhat handy.

I've seen more than a few posts complaining about rough running Rossis. In each case the Steve's Gun spring set and a little smoothing from a local Cowboy Action specialty smith in your area will easily take care of any roughness.

That leaves accuracy. I've yet to read any tale of poor accuracy. Oh sure, some are OK and a few are stellar. But I have not yet seen one that shot barn door size groups at 100.

So treat it as a reasonable cost kit that is loosely assembled to make it easier to ship. Then if you find that it's rough and you don't want to wait for it to wear into smoothness then get a smith to doctor it up.

The basics I've done on mine took me and her husband about 2 hours. And my metal shop isn't even set up. A proper smith should be easily able to open up the rifle, swap the springs and stone off the generous number of burrs to be found then put it back together in an hour or only slightly more. So even with the cost of the spring kit I can't see this costing much more than $100. So factor that onto the cost to get a Rossi that works as slick as a Miroku and see if you like the final price or not.
 
"Cheaper, maybe, but lighter and more useful?

Pistol cal carbines can weigh in at 6 lbs or less."
Glad someone else understands the benefits. They're quite a lot smaller, too, on average (narrower width and shorter vertical profile). If there was a benefit to using rimmed cartridges over non-rimmed in a semi auto, I'd be all for it, but there really isn't; they just tend to be longer than auto pistol rounds since they weren't designed to fit in a grip.

I personally think 223 cut down and re-necked to 22 with full-ogive bullets, at about half the length of 223 (so about as long as the longer pistol rounds) would be pretty cool, as would similar variants necked to 30cal and whatever that would make a straight wall case, the latter two with round nose bullets. All operated at 223 pressures of 55000psi for full power :cool:

Of course, with any rounds longer than Tokarev, magazines start becoming a major hassle (I guess you could use new M1 Carbine mags for some of them, though)

"There are more tennis ball launchers sold than mag pistol round conversions, so its not all about utility but what sells."
I think that's mostly (entirely?) due to A) the conversions being blowbacks which have plenty of drawbacks which is why no blowback carbines really sweep the market, and B) pistol-caliber mags look really stupid in a full-size magwell, and let's not pretend that's not an issue, and C) the AR is actually a pretty danged big platform for a pistol caliber gun, what with the rifle-size furniture and buffer tube. I personally think the AR57 is the only particularly interesting conversion from a use standpoint (DI pistol cal conversions might peak my interest, but they are few and often have plenty of issues of their own) and I understand the rather small company making/marketing them has been quite successful

TCB
 
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