huntsman
Member
I would rather deal with the rare semi-auto malfunction than with the constant 12lb trigger pull. I guess for me it doesn’t get any simpler, all the rest is background noise.
If it happens that I can't handle the situation with that...well, I'm having a really bad day.
Even if you can handle the situation with that I'd say you're having a really bad day
mcb, no offence, but we are talking apples and oranges here. You were dealing with 'shooters' , not the average SD person, who were involved with a form of the shooting 'sports' not just SD/EDC. Actually you proved my point that those who wish to TAKE THE TIME to train and practice with an auto are a true minority, and those who do wish to use a SA MUST spend more time to be come proficient with the 'tool' which is much more complicated to operate. I have trained 100's of people and only a VERY few have went on to do any competitive shooting. But those who did took the time (the learning curve for a SA as opposed to a revolver is 4 to 5 time greater) and got the training and spent the money to practice A LOT. Like I said, the VAST majority who carry ONLY for SD do not, thus the revolver is the common sense choice for them.
If we then take this shooters that has this minimal set of skills (ie the fundamental operation and basic marksmanship) and throw them into a self-defense training session or an IDPA or USPSA match the short comings of the revolver become glaringly obvious.
Seems to me we should be glad you're still with us.Thank you, Styx. And others.
My personal narrative as relates to guns is that several years back I was mugged in a parking lot in Texas. He blindsided me and tried to make me get into his car. The aftermath was lengthy and complicated and scary and my life was forever changed. Recently, I was walking with my dog on a low traffic mountain road of second and vacation homes and a couple of sketchy guys in a too slow-moving car made me realize I probably should get a gun. So I did.
First of all, let me admit that I'm one of those concealed carriers who's never been in a violent confrontation. I carry to protect myself and my family, but I've never had to draw on anyone. Came close once, but didn't actually draw. With that said, there are lots of concealed-hammer revolvers out there from which to choose. Mine is a Ruger LCR, I'm very pleased with it.I've been training with my husband's S&W 637 and my 9mm first gen. Shield (with TS) and a borrowed P365 (no safety). I shoot regularly with my M&P .22 LR. My 637 has the exposed hammer. For pocket carry, I will buy a revolver with concealed hammer. I really like the Sig and I really like the revolver.
FWIW, and reminding you of my caveat above, one of the things I decided several years ago, and which I suggest you consider is this: If your revolver doesn't have a safety, why would you want to carry a semiauto that does? I went from cc-ing a 1911 only to CC-ing either a 1911 or a G19. Then I bought my LCR. What worried me (whether justified or not) was the prospect of forgetting to swipe the safety off on the 1911 at an inopportune moment. It never happened in practice, so maybe the odds were against it. Still, we don't carry because of the odds. We carry because of the stakes.I don't plan to carry 100% of the time but when I do carry in a public setting, I will carry the revolver (bedside, as well). When I am away from home and hiking, I will carry the Shield or a new 365 with manual safety. My personal preference, after this training stint, is the revolver over the semi autos. It is a comfortable fit for me....
If I were to use an IDPA or USPSA course to practice my Self Defense skills, I'd be off that course so fast I'd be knocking spectators over.
IMO, the "defensive" gun sports are a lot like Martial Arts. Play by the rules and you get really good at playing by the rules. Not a problem if you want to compete. But I don't believe doing so trains you to survive.
Seems to me we should be glad you're still with us.
First of all, let me admit that I'm one of those concealed carriers who's never been in a violent confrontation. I carry to protect myself and my family, but I've never had to draw on anyone. Came close once, but didn't actually draw. With that said, there are lots of concealed-hammer revolvers out there from which to choose. Mine is a Ruger LCR, I'm very pleased with it.
FWIW, and reminding you of my caveat above, one of the things I decided several years ago, and which I suggest you consider is this: If your revolver doesn't have a safety, why would you want to carry a semiauto that does? I went from cc-ing a 1911 only to CC-ing either a 1911 or a G19. Then I bought my LCR. What worried me (whether justified or not) was the prospect of forgetting to swipe the safety off on the 1911 at an inopportune moment. It never happened in practice, so maybe the odds were against it. Still, we don't carry because of the odds. We carry because of the stakes.
I carried an M1911A1 for 16 years in the Army until they took it away and gave me an M9 Beretta. I kept revolvers at home because my wife didn't like "guns that shoot back." After I retired from the Army, other than a CZ-75 and a brief flirtation with a Glock 23, we just had revolvers. I sold my 4 inch S&W Model 629 after an elbow rebuild, and my wife berated me for selling "her gun." (She loaded it with .44 Special Silvertips when I was gone.) I lost my S&W Model 681 with Crimson Trace grips to her over that one. During my badge carrying days, I carried S&W revolvers even after my officers started carrying Glock 22s.
Well, I retired last year, and my wife's health is such that she doesn't carry her gun anymore, so I lost my "backer." With us traveling to get to her medical appointments (often out of state), I put her S&W in the Jeep Cherokee console and started carrying a S&W Model 469 with...several magazines. Since then, I found, and after breaking it in and adding extra magazines and a Hogue Handall, started carrying a Ruger EC9s for in-town EDC. On the road, I carry the S&W Model 469 and the Ruger EC9s. My revolvers are now woods walking or "barbeque guns."
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I see a lot and hear a lot about how light in the pocket, etc.....I don't mind the weight. Actually, I kind of like knowing it is there.So true... Took my wife to the range a few times when I first got her into firearms. All the guns functioned perfectly, so I never gave it a second thought.. That was until the Ruger LC9s was malfunctioning left and right, and I then realized how much trouble she'd be in if a malfunction happened during the one in millions chance she'd have to even fire one shot let alone dozens...
I think you're carry choices mimic mine and most Americans who carry firearms outside the home.... Mostly single stacks 9mms, Jframes, and 380s...
I prefer steal framed guns, and do not mind the weight. Instead of a Shield, I carry a Kahr "K9" or "MK9" 9mm. Instead of the S&W 642, I started carrying my S&W 640 Pro... I've been going back and forth with weather to get a SP101 or a S&W 66 Combat Magnum....
That said, when danger knocks, your adrenalin goes to an unbelievable level and instantly. You could almost fly. I've asked myself a thousand times if I had a gun would I have shot the guy or been able mentally and/or physically to shoot him. What I learned is to be ever-vigilant of my surroundings. I took that from the experience and with that mindset, I hope that I am better prepared to anticipate trouble. It happened so quickly that I'm not sure a gun would have helped, honestly. I have to make sure I'm ready. I have and I am.
What I learned is to be ever-vigilant of my surroundings.
It is nothing to me to flip the switch on a semi.
LOL I'm the same way... I actually like the heft, weight, and feel of steel. I too like knowing that it's there. I liken it to the feels of an old school American muscle car vs the light weight new school cars of today...I see a lot and hear a lot about how light in the pocket, etc.....I don't mind the weight. Actually, I kind of like knowing it is there.
You don't think with training, the problem you experienced with the safety would be easily solved no different than any other issue?I've never shot anyone but I have been in a couple of violent confrontations. My experience has been that your muscle memory takes over and you default to your training. That's why so many people advocate professional training and practice.
The second or third time a tweaker attacks you you start paying attention.
I've told this story before but I used to carry TDA guns exclusively. One day during a training class I experienced a malfunction. When I attempted to clear the malfunction I accidentally engaged the safety on the gun without realizing it. I attempted to clear the malfunction three times before I figured out what was happening. I have enough experience to know that in a real world encounter it would have been all over before I figured it out. I haven't carried a gun with a safety since.
I would recommend you take some force on force training.
Not sure I follow. Learning the fundamental operations of either action is not what I would call difficult. Although the revolver admittedly has a slightly simpler manual of arms you can learn how to operate either actions in a few short hours of instruction and be moderately proficient with basic operation and marksmanship of either system with a few sessions of practice. But being able to stand in the booth at the local indoor range, load and shoot your chosen handgun at a static target is IMHO far from being ready to EDC, both from a gun handling skills (the subject of this post) and all the other legal, situational awareness etc aspects of SD.
If we then take this shooters that has this minimal set of skills (ie the fundamental operation and basic marksmanship) and throw them into a self-defense training session or an IDPA or USPSA match the short comings of the revolver become glaringly obvious.
Throw that time pressure (whether training or competition) on there and suddenly that double action revolver trigger is brutal on the accuracy and thumbing the hammer become painfully slow. When you all too soon run the revolver dry the reloads that seem easy standing in the booth at the indoor range become a fumbling juggling act under the time pressure. Throw in some shooter moment, awkward shooting positions, and moving targets and this all get even worse. From watching new shooter learn these skills in these settings is why I assert that despite the revolver having the simple manual of arms the amount of time it takes to be proficient with the gun handling skills that really matter in the real world (self-defense carry or competition) take longer with a revolver.
Then the more proficient you become with both the revolver and semi-auto the more you also realize that ultimately no matter how much you practice with the revolver you will always be slower and less efficient than the semi-auto would be, with a similar amount of training invested. The double action trigger is always going to be slower on the follow up shots than a semi-auto trigger, especially a single action semi-auto trigger. The double action revolver trigger is always going to take more practice to be equally accurate. The capacity is always lower in the revolver for similar size/weight handguns. The revolver reloads are always slower, and require more fine motor skill to execute.
Everything you would do in a real gun fight with a revolver is at best equal and in many aspect slower, more difficult, and less efficient than a comparable semi-auto. There is a reason the revolver divisions have all but died in the practical pistol sports. Last I looked the Revolver division only made up ~2% of USPSA competitors and I suspect it's about the same in IDPA. Revolvers are harder to learn to run in the dynamic situations these sports provide and even when you master them you are still slower then the semi-autos. This knowledge/experience then carries over to what these competitors carry for self defense.
As much as I love revolvers and shooting revolver in USPSA and IDPA competition I am under no delusion that the revolver offers any meaningful advantage over a semi-auto in real world SD situation and that is true for the novice and the expert IMHO.
I guess we just have to disagree. I don't care if you have only an hour to train or weeks. For a given amount of time spent training/practicing most shooters will advance faster and be more proficient training with a semi auto than a revolver.Again, you proved my point, thank you! If you want to 'compete' in any of the above mentioned 'SPORTS' you MUST train and practice A LOT and then you will become proficient and familiar with your equipment. You are totally missing the point here, MOST PEOPLE WHO CARRY FOR SD DO NOT TRAIN OR PRACTICE ENOUGH, and certainly do not take up the 'sports' you are discussing here ! And I have been in harms way my entire adult life (50+ years) and you will fire more rounds at 'targets' in just ONE course of fire, not the entire match, in the 'simulated' SPORT matches you describe than I have in a life time, and an 'average' person, even in LE, would in a ten LIFE TIMES!!! And you said a revolver is 'slightly simpler' than a SA, the learning curve is 4 to 5 times greater with a SA, slightly more than slightly I think!!!!! I would have to totally disagree with you when you talk about civilian SD. If you want to compete in one of your 'sports' or you are going to use the Firearm as a 'professional' (LE or Military) I would completely agree that the SA has an edge on the revolver, BUT IN CIVILIAN SD, no way, not even close!!! Just common sense and reality! Nuff said, have a nice day.
Might make that the equivalent of a flip phone. Just a side comment on safeties on semiautos. One needs to practice a clean removal of the safety on the draw. Since I shoot 1911s at times, I've practiced that dry - many times. However, something that I've noticed and others have. If the situation or scenario is not a standard draw, folks are more likely to forget the safety. Picking up the gun, having to draw from a not standing position, etc. - that increases somewhat (not all the time), forgetting the safety. Using your other hand - same thing. Good idea to have ambi safeties. Same thing as been found with RDS. You practice your draw, such that you can find the dot. Switch from the standard draw or position, where's the dot?
Thank you, Styx. And others.
My personal narrative as relates to guns is that several years back I was mugged in a parking lot in Texas. He blindsided me and tried to make me get into his car. The aftermath was lengthy and complicated and scary and my life was forever changed. Recently, I was walking with my dog on a low traffic mountain road of second and vacation homes and a couple of sketchy guys in a too slow-moving
I don't plan to carry 100% of the time.
How quickly can you draw and put three to five shots into the chest area of a running assailant?NAA mini revolver, 5 shots of .22 Mag is no slouch.