Jake
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Walmarts down here sell 7.62 x 39. Two or three different brands even.
Roughest, toughest, durable rifle ever built?
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Lonestar.45
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I just find it amusing that one of the requirements listed for a "main survival rifle" would be the fact that Wal-mart would carry the ammo for it, is all. In that case, in my area, I'd be pretty darned limited! No offense intended.
Has anybody listed an Enfield? The jungle carbine version? I'd think that'd be darned tough main survival weapon. There's an outfit that rebarrels them to .308, and you can get one out the door for $300. I'll have to look up that link again.
Has anybody listed an Enfield? The jungle carbine version? I'd think that'd be darned tough main survival weapon. There's an outfit that rebarrels them to .308, and you can get one out the door for $300. I'll have to look up that link again.
Brian Williams
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1) Durable as all get out, able to take minimal maintenace without a hitch.
They have been abused by many different types from cowboys to hollyweird movies, some military, hunters have used them for a hunnert years,
2) Available - no plasma rifles in the 40 megawatt range.
You can find them anywhere
3) Common parts. Can I get parts for the beast? Springs, etc?
get 2 and send them to Wildalaska and have him do a take down conversion, them you have your own parts gun.
4) Common ammo - as much as I love my Mosins, the ammo is not found at WalMart.
Who doesent have 30-30 ammo
5) Bolt OR semi. Doesn't matter
You said
6) Combat proven. A former, or designed for the military arm, is usually one that has been through some rough trials.
Maybe not military but I think the russians had a few 1894s
7 Portability. No Solothurns!
everything mentioned other than a lever gun weighs at least a pound or 2 more.
8 Magazine fed - box or internal, no single shots.
tube might get bent but I have never seen one.
9 Lethality - able to defeat both man, and most medium and large game.
yep
10 Price -
I got mine for $250
I would change the above recommendation to a Marlin 1894C in 357 because the ammo is lighter and easier to pack than 30-30 or just about any other round. Plus you could just take 200 rounds and a Leeloader kit or a Lyman 310 tong tool with 2000 bullets, 2200 primers and 2 lbs of unique and load up 6grs of unique pushing 158 grLSWC, with this setup you could have more ammo for about the same weight as 1000 round of 7.62x39 or whatever.
You would also have campatibility with a handgun that could always be at your feet and not leaning against a tree when you are indacommode
Dionysusigma
Member
VEPR II in .308:
1) Durable as all get out, able to take minimal maintenace without a hitch. ie, if I get dropped into Land of the Lost with this, 1000 rounds, and one little bottle of Break Free, how long will it run? Forever. In fact, lose the Break Free for some drinking water.
2) Available - no plasma rifles in the 40 megawatt range. Available from at least four or five places I can think of at this very moment.
3) Common parts. Can I get parts for the beast? Springs, etc? Yup.
4) Common ammo - as much as I love my Mosins, the ammo is not found at WalMart. .308 can be found anywhere in the world.
5) Bolt OR semi. Doesn't matter. Yup.
6) Combat proven. A former, or designed for the military arm, is usually one that has been through some rough trials. Based on AK design.
7 Portability. No Solothurns! I know I can carry one quite a ways.
8 Magazine fed - box or internal, no single shots. Yup.
9 Lethality - able to defeat both man, and most medium and large game. Yup.
10 Price - as a state slave, I make squat, so it's gotta be affordable. Most can afford 'em... 'specially if you're given the chance to choose a rifle before being dropped in the Land of the Lost with both a rifle and a full thousand rounds.
1) Durable as all get out, able to take minimal maintenace without a hitch. ie, if I get dropped into Land of the Lost with this, 1000 rounds, and one little bottle of Break Free, how long will it run? Forever. In fact, lose the Break Free for some drinking water.
2) Available - no plasma rifles in the 40 megawatt range. Available from at least four or five places I can think of at this very moment.
3) Common parts. Can I get parts for the beast? Springs, etc? Yup.
4) Common ammo - as much as I love my Mosins, the ammo is not found at WalMart. .308 can be found anywhere in the world.
5) Bolt OR semi. Doesn't matter. Yup.
6) Combat proven. A former, or designed for the military arm, is usually one that has been through some rough trials. Based on AK design.
7 Portability. No Solothurns! I know I can carry one quite a ways.
8 Magazine fed - box or internal, no single shots. Yup.
9 Lethality - able to defeat both man, and most medium and large game. Yup.
10 Price - as a state slave, I make squat, so it's gotta be affordable. Most can afford 'em... 'specially if you're given the chance to choose a rifle before being dropped in the Land of the Lost with both a rifle and a full thousand rounds.
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rbernie
Contributing Member
I yield my SKS contribution to Dionysusigma's 308 Vepr suggestion, with one caveat - the SKS is mo' practical to carry afield and shoot (especially with a TechSight) and FAR less expensive.
But in every way other than ergonomics and cost, the Vepr in 308 trumps all other suggestions (IMO). It has the best blend of reliability, power, portability, ammo availability, and punch of all of the suggestions to date. If ya can't afford the Vepr - get the Saiga.
But in every way other than ergonomics and cost, the Vepr in 308 trumps all other suggestions (IMO). It has the best blend of reliability, power, portability, ammo availability, and punch of all of the suggestions to date. If ya can't afford the Vepr - get the Saiga.
OP
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armoredman
Member
Saiga is discontinued by EAA - no new importer yet.
I like the Enfield, too. Ishy 308s are out there semi-cheap, aren't they?
Lonestar, WalMart is where I would stock up on cheap ammo before the Land of the Lost trip....is 308 a good round for Sleestack?
How much is a Vepr?
IF I get the raise they are bandying about, I could afford a good rifle...until then, maybe just the SKS for now. I'll look, too, for a good inexpensive lever gun....thanks for the tips that direction...yes the Russians used lever rifles, didn't our cavarly do that too?
Cool.......
I like the Enfield, too. Ishy 308s are out there semi-cheap, aren't they?
Lonestar, WalMart is where I would stock up on cheap ammo before the Land of the Lost trip....is 308 a good round for Sleestack?
How much is a Vepr?
IF I get the raise they are bandying about, I could afford a good rifle...until then, maybe just the SKS for now. I'll look, too, for a good inexpensive lever gun....thanks for the tips that direction...yes the Russians used lever rifles, didn't our cavarly do that too?
Cool.......
Dionysusigma
Member
IIRC, the VEPR II .308 was around $629 from FAC...
Click here. Turns out it's $599... Not exactly cheap, but definately far from the price of an M1A.
Click here. Turns out it's $599...
Not exactly cheap, but definately far from the price of an M1A. Ultimate rifle
Apparently, I'm the only one that read the question. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my mauser '98. I think handloading would be fine, but, if I were, (as the question asks) dropped in the jungle with one rifle, amd 1,000 rounds, and needed to be able to defeat man or beast, (meaning long and or close quarters shots) then the ONLY reasonable answer IS the AK-47.
CASE CLOSED!!!
Millions of terrorists everywhere can't be wrong!
Apparently, I'm the only one that read the question. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my mauser '98. I think handloading would be fine, but, if I were, (as the question asks) dropped in the jungle with one rifle, amd 1,000 rounds, and needed to be able to defeat man or beast, (meaning long and or close quarters shots) then the ONLY reasonable answer IS the AK-47.
CASE CLOSED!!!
Millions of terrorists everywhere can't be wrong!
Millions of terrorists can't seem to hit their targets with small arms either.
They need to resort to chance attack bombing or throwing away their lives in suicide bombings or sawing the heads off those that cannot or will not protect themselves.
What kind of statement does "Millions of terrorists everywhere can't be wrong." show the rest of the world??
They need to resort to chance attack bombing or throwing away their lives in suicide bombings or sawing the heads off those that cannot or will not protect themselves.
What kind of statement does "Millions of terrorists everywhere can't be wrong." show the rest of the world??
Based on your criteria, I would have to say that you are obviously looking for a good quality bolt action rifle chambered in either .308 or .30-06. That easily meets every criteria you present. I would march down to Wal-Mart and pick one out. Not only does Wal-Mart sell the ammo, they also sell the rifle.
I think a lot of the people posting didn't read the original post carefully enough, or else they just look for any excuse to suggest an AK. An AK (or SKS) clearly does not meet the criteria. If I am depending on taking an elk at 400 yards for my very survival, one of the last things I would want is an AK. AND, taking large game is clearly listed as one of your criteria. And, this would certainly be a more likely senario than getting into a fire fight with the invading chinese.
I think a lot of the people posting didn't read the original post carefully enough, or else they just look for any excuse to suggest an AK. An AK (or SKS) clearly does not meet the criteria. If I am depending on taking an elk at 400 yards for my very survival, one of the last things I would want is an AK. AND, taking large game is clearly listed as one of your criteria. And, this would certainly be a more likely senario than getting into a fire fight with the invading chinese.
Lonestar.45
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444, I think you're a little off.
He also said it ought to be combat proven, either a military or former military design. How many Wal mart specials live up to that criteria? Also, he didn't say anything about it needing to be able to shoot an elk at 400 yds. If I can kill one with my bow at 35 yds, I'm kinda certain I could take one at 50 with an SKS. Not that I'd choose to kill a 700lb animal if I could get a rabbit/squirrel instead. They're a little easier to clean.
An SKS or an AK clearly meets all the criteria he laid out, except for possibly finding ammo at a Wal-mart, and who really cares about that when buying a "survival rifle"? About as many people who would buy a 400yd elk rifle for survival, I suppose.
He also said it ought to be combat proven, either a military or former military design. How many Wal mart specials live up to that criteria? Also, he didn't say anything about it needing to be able to shoot an elk at 400 yds. If I can kill one with my bow at 35 yds, I'm kinda certain I could take one at 50 with an SKS. Not that I'd choose to kill a 700lb animal if I could get a rabbit/squirrel instead. They're a little easier to clean.
An SKS or an AK clearly meets all the criteria he laid out, except for possibly finding ammo at a Wal-mart, and who really cares about that when buying a "survival rifle"? About as many people who would buy a 400yd elk rifle for survival, I suppose.
Most of the bolt action rifles sold at Wal Mart live up to that criteria. Remington 700s and Winchester Model 70s have been used as sniper rifles in the military for many years. If I am not mistaken, Carlos Hathcock used a Model 70 in Vietnam. The Rugers are a modern version of the Mauser 98 action. Only they are made using modern methods and modern materials.
I have to assume you have never done much hunting. If you had, you would realize that often times, you arn't offered choices such as: should I shoot the elk, or the rabbit, or maybe order out chinese. You take what you can get. If you are starving and you have a chance to take an elk, you want to take the elk. If the elk is at 400 yards, you need to take it. If it is at 50 yards, you don't want to use a rifle that is totally inappropriate for the task. I have taken several elk. The 7.62x39 is not up to the task. The only people who would question this, have never done it: no offense intended. It is just silly to even discuss.
"The rifle is NOT meant for long term combat, but skulking and hunting, staying OUT of combat if possible, but able to handle it should it arise."
This statement pretty much sums things up and is the most realistic thing in the thread. If you get into a gun fight with someone, you have done something seriously wrong. If you get into a gunfight with someone, you stand a good chance of losing. Odds are, you are going to use your rifle for hunting and somewhere in the deep recesses of your mind you know that if you had to shoot someone it would work. You make your decision based on what you are going to really do with your rifle, not on some Walter Mitty fantasy. You choice should heavily favor what you will do with it most, and far less on what you might need to do if everything goes to hell.
I have to assume you have never done much hunting. If you had, you would realize that often times, you arn't offered choices such as: should I shoot the elk, or the rabbit, or maybe order out chinese. You take what you can get. If you are starving and you have a chance to take an elk, you want to take the elk. If the elk is at 400 yards, you need to take it. If it is at 50 yards, you don't want to use a rifle that is totally inappropriate for the task. I have taken several elk. The 7.62x39 is not up to the task. The only people who would question this, have never done it: no offense intended. It is just silly to even discuss.
"The rifle is NOT meant for long term combat, but skulking and hunting, staying OUT of combat if possible, but able to handle it should it arise."
This statement pretty much sums things up and is the most realistic thing in the thread. If you get into a gun fight with someone, you have done something seriously wrong. If you get into a gunfight with someone, you stand a good chance of losing. Odds are, you are going to use your rifle for hunting and somewhere in the deep recesses of your mind you know that if you had to shoot someone it would work. You make your decision based on what you are going to really do with your rifle, not on some Walter Mitty fantasy. You choice should heavily favor what you will do with it most, and far less on what you might need to do if everything goes to hell.
rbernie
Contributing Member
They're still in the pipeline, and parts are cheap/plentiful. I still think that spending $260 on a Saiga in 308 is your best bet for 'the one true SHTF/survival rifle'. With decent fodder, it'll hold 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards (mine would). That's plenty good for hunting (unless you hunt elk @ 400 yards, in which case you and I live in a different plane of existence). Barring that, you can get the SKS for around $200 and a Saiga in 7.62x39 for about the same.
"in which case you and I live in a different plane of existence"
I think we do.
I am not sure how many elk there are in Texas, but we have them here. In fact, a buddy of mine took a nice bull within 30 miles of where I am sitting right now. The guy that posted the question lives in Arizona. I have hunted elk several times in Arizona. Please tell me about your successful elk hunts with the 7.62x39, I would love to know that I (and pretty much everyone else that hunts elk) is using the wrong rifle. One of the defacto elk rifles is the .338 Win Mag. What fools we have been. We could have been using an $80 SKS with mystery ammo in 7.62x39.
I think we do.
I am not sure how many elk there are in Texas, but we have them here. In fact, a buddy of mine took a nice bull within 30 miles of where I am sitting right now. The guy that posted the question lives in Arizona. I have hunted elk several times in Arizona. Please tell me about your successful elk hunts with the 7.62x39, I would love to know that I (and pretty much everyone else that hunts elk) is using the wrong rifle. One of the defacto elk rifles is the .338 Win Mag. What fools we have been. We could have been using an $80 SKS with mystery ammo in 7.62x39.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Ditto, except that this was about 70 miles away from where I sit. He took it from about 50 yards away with a 50cal Knight muzzleloader.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I'm not - I'm suggesting that shooting at an elk from 400 yards away is likely to be the rarest experience in a hunters lifetime. And, while I freely admit that I don't qualify as Grizzly Adams or Jeremiah Johnson, so far that sort of need has not been a staple of my hunting experiences.
For anything under 250lbs and within 150 yards, I'd be OK with a 7.62x39. It's not optimum, but acceptable - especially for survival work, where I'm far more likely to be living off small game than large. A 308 would be mo' better on the upper end of things, and I admitted as such when presented with the choice.
Given all of this, my point was and remains that I'd take a Saiga in 308 up against most anything else that you can buy in the same price range for use as a survival rifle given the criteria specified.
For anything under 250lbs and within 150 yards, I'd be OK with a 7.62x39. It's not optimum, but acceptable - especially for survival work, where I'm far more likely to be living off small game than large. A 308 would be mo' better on the upper end of things, and I admitted as such when presented with the choice.
Given all of this, my point was and remains that I'd take a Saiga in 308 up against most anything else that you can buy in the same price range for use as a survival rifle given the criteria specified.
I'd take a 30-06 Bolt gun with a mauser action and express sights with a 4x fixed scope or a 3x9x40 on a quick release mount.
The mauser is pretty well understood world-wide, and I like the range of bullets you can drop in a .30-06 over a .308.
I might upgrade to stainless and a synthetic stock for durability.
You can pretty much kill anything in the lower 48 with a 30-06.
Then again if it really is 'land of the lost' maybe up that to something to handle thick skinned grumpy dinos and sleestacks.
Up it to.375 and add 2 reinforcing bolts through the stock.
The mauser is pretty well understood world-wide, and I like the range of bullets you can drop in a .30-06 over a .308.
I might upgrade to stainless and a synthetic stock for durability.
You can pretty much kill anything in the lower 48 with a 30-06.
Then again if it really is 'land of the lost' maybe up that to something to handle thick skinned grumpy dinos and sleestacks.
Up it to.375 and add 2 reinforcing bolts through the stock.
cracked butt
Member
There are a lot of nice gus listed but the old Mosin Nagant has them all beat in durability, and the ammo is just as cheap if not cheaper than anythig else with the exception of the 7.62x39. You can get a few 440 rd tins of surplus ammo for about $40 a piece and you will be set for armageddon.
mainmech48
Member
The trouble with 1917 Enfields and 03 Springfields is that it's so dang hard to find one in decent shape for less than the price of a nice commercial rifle anymore.
SMLEs are still pretty reasonable, but surplus .303 ammo is getting scarce. You can find good commercial loads at Wally World in some areas.
The Ishapore 2A SMLE in 7.62 NATO meets your criteria and can still be had for under $200 in very nice shape. I only wish that they'd used the No.4 SMLE as the pattern so that its much-superior irons would've been part of the package.
Lots of practical logic in the levergun arguments, even though they don't fit your original specs.
My personal choice is an SKS. Parts are cheap and easy to come by, but you're not real likely to need any. Aftermarket support for upgrades and accessories is strong. The design is battle-proven and almost elegant in its simplicity. Ammo is cheap. It has very nice handling qualities, isn't too heavy and recoil is very mild. You can carry 200 rds of ammo in strippers, plus an oil/solvent can and sight adjustment "C" tool in one of the ChiCom chest rigs without being overburdened in the least.
FWIW, I'd look for one of the Chinese models made for commercial sale here in preference to a surplus example. IMO, they're less likely to have been subjected to abuse or neglect than your average military turn-in as their 'history' is shorter.
SMLEs are still pretty reasonable, but surplus .303 ammo is getting scarce. You can find good commercial loads at Wally World in some areas.
The Ishapore 2A SMLE in 7.62 NATO meets your criteria and can still be had for under $200 in very nice shape. I only wish that they'd used the No.4 SMLE as the pattern so that its much-superior irons would've been part of the package.
Lots of practical logic in the levergun arguments, even though they don't fit your original specs.
My personal choice is an SKS. Parts are cheap and easy to come by, but you're not real likely to need any. Aftermarket support for upgrades and accessories is strong. The design is battle-proven and almost elegant in its simplicity. Ammo is cheap. It has very nice handling qualities, isn't too heavy and recoil is very mild. You can carry 200 rds of ammo in strippers, plus an oil/solvent can and sight adjustment "C" tool in one of the ChiCom chest rigs without being overburdened in the least.
FWIW, I'd look for one of the Chinese models made for commercial sale here in preference to a surplus example. IMO, they're less likely to have been subjected to abuse or neglect than your average military turn-in as their 'history' is shorter.
Although I don't care for them anymore (I prefer the FN49) the Garand is the most solid rifle I've seen after that about any bolt-action (with protected front & rear sights, enfield?). You have to ask yourself...would my most trusted rifle likely survive a two story fall and still function?....on concrete!
Lonestar.45
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444, I think you're getting too caught up in what the best "elk rifle" would be. Let's be honest, the entire question is a "Walter Mitty fantasy", don't you think?
If I'm in a survival situation, where I may possibly have to use my rifle in combat, and also use it to survive on what I could kill, my first choice would not be a Remington M700 in .300 Win Mag, thought it may be a fine "elk rifle". I'd much rather have an SKS or an AK in that situation. I would not advocate hunting elk with the 7.62x39, but then again, the question really had nothing to do with elk hunting, as I read it.
If I'm in a survival situation, where I may possibly have to use my rifle in combat, and also use it to survive on what I could kill, my first choice would not be a Remington M700 in .300 Win Mag, thought it may be a fine "elk rifle". I'd much rather have an SKS or an AK in that situation. I would not advocate hunting elk with the 7.62x39, but then again, the question really had nothing to do with elk hunting, as I read it.
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