Ruger OA vs Rem 1858

[hildo]

Vermonter wanted real power.
Nothing wrong with the Remington Army. The Ruger Old Army may hold more powder, don't know how much, and... Ruger makes quality guns.
But real power will be indeed be delivered by the Colt Walker which is the biggest of them all, not too expensive, and takes something like a 60-65 grain BP load . But it is a large heavy gun, almost double the weight of a Remington. In a Colt Dragoon I can get 53 grain. A Remington may have a better frame design than these Colt's and weigh less but does not come close to these BP loads. For the Remington maybe 35 grain or even 40 grain max?

 

[dwave]

I can get 40 gr goex in my Pietta '58

 

[Vermonter]

Part of this gun's job is gonna be making my friend's Glock 17 look like a bb gun I want me an old fashioned hand-cannon

Are the Walkers very strong? They don't look as solidly built.

 

[hildo]

The Colt's are all 'open top' design. The barrel is held in place by a wedge. The more you tap the wedge in the tighter the barrel/cylinder gap wil be. Eventually the cylinder will no longer rotate since the barrel touches the cylinder, then you have tapped the wedge too far.
It all sounds pretty week but in the real world it works fine. I have not heard of any colt barrels blown off.
Maybe other members of THR have?

I found the Colt's shooting just fine, and like the classic visual effect of the open top. The Remington shoots fine as well.
One disadvantage of the Remington; Personally I found placing the percussion caps hard because there is not so much space / room for your fingers

Maybe... The Walker is the absolute Big Bang winner. Go for that if you want but for regular shooting the gun may be somewhat heavy.
Take 2.2kg (don't know how much that is in US) in your hand and stretch your arm and hold it there for some time.

 

[Vermonter]

How accurate can the open-frame revolvers be? If the barrel is moving around.....?

 

[Jamie C.]

Vermonter, the barrel isn't really "moving around". It's fixed in place once the wedge is set. There's simply a bit of peening/compression with the wedge that takes place over time. The heavier the loads, and the more of 'em fired, the sooner this will happen.

But before you get too worried about it, think about this; how accurate can a modern autoloader be, with the sights/slide AND barrel jumping back and forth relative to the rest of the gun, every shot?



J.C.

 

[Vermonter]

Well, that's part of the point, I want to put a modern autoloader to shame

Anybody had experience with the accuracy of open vs solid frame?

 

[Ferret]

1 - Open frames can be just as accurate as ones with top strap. I have an 1860 clone that is just as accurate as my best 1858. Althought on average my '58s are more accurate than the Colt clones.

2- Go for the repro 1858! $180 for the revolver, $220 for a Kirst Konverter. You will have a 'close reproduction' of a real nice transitional black powder revolver. It will get more comments and admirers at the range than a ROA would, and you will have two guns in one... A percussion revolver and a nice BP cartridge revolver.

Oh.. and the brace of remmies in the picture are less than 3 months old!! Try getting a Roooger to look that nice!!! I have had more people coming over and dropping their jaw at these two than I would have if I had gone to the range with my original Colt SAA's. I have even had a few people wanting to give me cash on the spot for them!

 

[Jamie C.]

Well, that's part of the point, I want to put a modern autoloader to shame

Well, I believe, as the saying goes, "you've lead your ducks to a dry hole", on that score.

For both power and accuracy combined, you're going to have a tough time even keeping up with modern weapons. Sure, you can probably find a load that's really accurate for your gun, but odds are it won't be the most powerful one the pistol can fire.
There's also the matter of how many rounds you can fire before accuracy degrades and you're forced to do a bit of cleaning. That Glock you're wanting to whip so badly is not going to suffer this problem to any significant degree. It'll still be plowing along while you're scrubbing muck out'a your gun.

Sorry, but there's a simple reason why cap 'n ball guns aren't used any longer as a major form of defense. And the reason is, there's much better weapons to be had, now days. Ones that are as accurate, if not more so... more powerful... and more reliable.

But not necessarily more fun.



J.C.

 

[Vermonter]

At the rate my friend rips through his clips he'll be done by the time I have to clean it

I know something more modern would be more accurate and powerful. I'm just trying to get the best I can out of something "old school". Something about the whole process appeals to me. I didn't really pay much attention to loads until I started reading up on the blackpowder stuff. Pretty soon I'll be doing ballistics in my head

 

[Jamie C.]

Vermonter, that's the whole appeal for me with the "old" pistols; STYLE.
After all, any fool can dump a mag of ammo out of a Glock downrange.

So, it sounds like your best bet would be to buy yourself a pair of 1858s and learn to shoot them well. That alone sounds like it'll be more than enough to trump anything your friend and his Glock is doing.

A few spare cylinders will help you out with the reloading process too. Preloaded cylinders may not be as quick as stuffing a fresh mag in an auto, but they're a damn sight faster than re-stuffing the one that's already in the gun.



J.C.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Vermonter...

I think there is one way you can "out-class" your Glockster friend fairly easily with an 1858 Remington or a 51 Navy or 60 Army and maybe even the Ruger Old Army. It won't be a statement about power though.

The guns of that 1850-1860 genre (and esp. the 1851 Navy in my opinion) had/have a quality best described as "Pointability", and that is something I, personally, have never felt in semi-autos.

I've seen demonstrations of "Point and Shoot" at which someone with one of the old guns would take on anyone with a new gun and almost always the shooter with the "old" gun won. The gig was something like having the gun in one hand and pointing down, then (against a clock) raising it and firing (one-handed) at a small target at maybe 25 feet. However - the shooters were not allowed to lift the gun high enough to engage the sights.

Predictably, the times were always within milliseconds of each other but almost always the BP round would be an x-ringer while quite often the modern gun would be far off-target, even missing the target many times.

A variation was to hold the gun pointing upward with the elbow of the shooting arm just a little lower than the shoulder and then "snap shoot", meaning to snap the forearm down to "point" level and immediately pull the trigger. The 1850-60 guns almost always win that too. Try it with an empty 58 Remmie etc. and I bet you'll be surprised at how often your gun "snaps" into nearly perfect sight alignment with the target.

Just some thoughts...

 

[highlander 5]

2.2kg=4.94 lbs
Ruger OA in SS throw in dishwasher to clean. Don't need an ffl for OA as it is a BP weapon. Midway sells them don't know the price though

 

[Zeke/PA]

I have replied to several posts in the past regarding the Ruger Old Army.
Using a home cast .457 round ball over 30 grs. of 3x it is without a doubt the most accurate handgun in my arsenal.
I use it often for squirrel hunting and head shots out to 20 yards are not uncommon.
Respectfully, Zeke

 

[gmatov]

I think this one is prettier, if you want to use pretty as your decider, as GW says.

Can't make it small enough to post here, gotta go to photobucket.

I don't know what that pistol is. It looks nickled, it looks as though it is fluted, or semi-fluted. It has the screw in the grips in the wrong place, per all mine.

Less rolled "engraving", it is not, really, just an impress in the metal during manufacture. No biggie you should pay hundreds or thousands for.

I like mine, works probably as well as yours, to me, looks better, AND, was cheaper than the price you put up.

Cheers,

George

http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/...urrent=PB060533.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

 

[Duncaninfrance]

At the moment it's a Remington BUT that could change !!!!!!!!!!!

Duncan

 

[gmatov]

Duncan,

It's a Remington, and that will NOT change.

Damned good looking one, too, though it looks like you "defarbed" it, stripped the blue, and, since you are a photographer, don't think it is just that you cannot show the beautiful bluing.

I like well blued steel. I like well polished steel, no matter what finish you want to end up with. You want to gold plate, if you do not polish properly, you will have a scratched looking gold plated pistol. Piece of crap.

Cheers,

George

 

[Franco2shoot]

Purty

Vermonter,
If you went through this entire thread you probably noticed that there are some fine, fine, super fine pictures of Remmies and not nearly as many Ruger. I always liked the Colt Open Top, but the Uberti Remington is the one that always evokes comments and discussion at my range. I went with the R&D conversion cylinder, and no trip is complete til a box of .45 Long Colts is finished. Whether its a Long Colt, or a BP load, the gun is a hand cannon for less. If you could get a chance to shoot one, I don't believe there would be a moments hesitation.

KKKKFL

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Hi there George. How's your belly for spots?!

Seriously though, this is a Pietta Progressive Rifled pistol. It is a joy to own and a joy to shoot - I even like cleaning it!!
It has a 'hazy' bluing that was done in Bordeaux after having the original finish removed and various parts polished with a Dremmel. Not by me but by the previous owner who is a very good friend of mine.

Pity I can't shoot it very well but pistols were never my strong point :banghead:

Anyway, it's my only BP arm and I like it!
Duncan

 

[gmatov]

Duncan,

Many of us can't shoot them very well, cartridge OR BP. Doesn't make it any less fun.

Jeez, thankfully, I have no problem after a bad round of golf, either. I can at least keep my BP on paper at normal range, or even at 50 yds or more. Can't keep a little white ball in 100 yard or so wide fairway consistently.

I shoot more BP now than golfs. Bad back, dr. doesn't reccommend it. Gonna have to give it a try in the Spring and see if I can do it.

That pistol of yours still looks good, even with the light shade it has.
How well can you group with the gain twist? Guess that's a hard ? to answer unless you have a std twist to shoot at the same time to compare your results.

Cheers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Well George, I get 6 shots on a 25mtr pistol target but not all in the black!! Best I ever did dualist was 6 July this year but it's NOT the norm!!



I was using a load of 1.85grams / 28.55 grains of 3f, home made felt lube wad and home cast .457 balls.

As you say, the end result is the enjoyment not the score although most times the target would be limping if not dead
Duncan

 

[gmatov]

Duncan,

My goodness, are things so "parlous" for you, financially, you have to recycle targets from the shotgun buckshot shooting range, with all the patched holes, or does that target back up your note that "it is not the norm"?

I'm kidding, you know. I'd be happy with that group. I measure it about 6 inches, and that ain't bad, offhand.

BIG target, though. I usually download and print to letter size paper, some with one inch dot (hard to see, to me, new glasses in the next week or so), some others with 4 inch bull. Them I can see better, but the specs don't let me see the sights well enough to line 'em up. Hope the new specs are better.

How old are you, BTW? 62 my next, but not an excuse. Son in law's dad is 70. He takes top spot at bowling pins near every shoot he goes to with his TC 44 Mag. single shot. 2 dollar bargain store glasses.

Guess it is the shooter, not the pistol, and I ain't as good a shooter as I once was.

Cheers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

It's like this George - The target is a standard Pistol Percussion for 25 & 50 mtrs. Black is 7 3/4" dia. Wish I had a gun that took buckshot loads that big!
Reason for all the patches is that I am a Yorkshireman. We make a Scottish Jew look like a spendthrift!!
It is also one I used to check different loads.
My age - 57 but like most BP shooters I never really grew up!
I also wear glasses now - varifocals which are great for everything BUT shooting so it's now Noise - Smell - Results in that order!
See you later!
Duncan

 

[sundance44s]

Sundance44s

I`m so cheap i borrow a papper target and get the wife to copy me some from her work and use stick up pins so i don`t waste staples in my staple gun . Any one cheaper than that ...haha probally would make a good thread for the forum ...

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Sundance - anyone THAT cheap would not have a computer to get on line with!!
Duncan